lcs Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 Slightly off topic here but since there is a background story about flattest shooting gun remember that not everyone agrees that flattest is the bestest. I shoot with some very, very top GMs (to reuse the phrase) who do not subscribe to that theory. Flatness or the concept is probably not the right word. What theory do they subscribe to? They must shoot 38S for some reason? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lcs Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 If your goal is to be a top GM in OPEN--go 38SC. Anything less than that---go 9 Major. Cost is a major factor in most decisions nowadays and 9 is just cheaper. What is it about 9mm that would prevent someone from making GM? I said "TOP GM" which is different from making GM. Nothing would prevent someone from making GM with a 9 Major. In my experience with 9 and 38SC, you can not configure a 9 major gun to shoot as flat and fast as a 38SC. So help us understand. As a "TOP GM" what is the difference the 9 shooters aren't taking advantage of. You say 9's don't shoot as flat and fast. I had one gun that I shot for 2 years as a Super and then I changed the barrel to 9 and shot it for another 2 years and I couldn't tell the difference, but then I'm just a Master at 93% Obviously I am not a Top GM or even a GM, but I have had many nines and 38S open guns. You just can't fit as much of the slower powders in 9 cases. I don't think anyone will dispute that more gas works the comp better. 9 Major is a great choice. 38S is great choice. There are reasons to select either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandrooney Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 I have run Aftec's for years and have never had a problem ever. I have had problems with traditional ectractors that's why I tried the Aftec's to begin with. I will never use anything else. I am sure that traditional extractors can be tuned to run but why bother when you can throw in an Aftec and be done with it. SR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neomet Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 Flatness or the concept is probably not the right word. What theory do they subscribe to? They must shoot 38S for some reason? It all revolves around powder choices. The most popular powders right now (In no particular order,N105, 3N38, 7625, 4756) all dang near fill a SC case. You can't get enough in a 9 case to even make major, much less the 172-175 that Open guns run best at. If a low volume powder with the characteristics of those came out I guess we might see more 9 shooters at the top. I don't know. Don't hold your breath for that though. Almost all slow burning powders are designed for shotguns where case volume isn't an issue. To the question of if Joe Average or Joe Aboveaverage shooter will move up a place or three at a match by shooting SC instead of 9.... I don't see it. He might just enjoy shooting SC more like I do and since this is still a hobby for me, that is enough. YMMV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 If your goal is to be a top GM in OPEN--go 38SC. Anything less than that---go 9 Major. Cost is a major factor in most decisions nowadays and 9 is just cheaper. What is it about 9mm that would prevent someone from making GM? I said "TOP GM" which is different from making GM. Nothing would prevent someone from making GM with a 9 Major. In my experience with 9 and 38SC, you can not configure a 9 major gun to shoot as flat and fast as a 38SC. So help us understand. As a "TOP GM" what is the difference the 9 shooters aren't taking advantage of. You say 9's don't shoot as flat and fast. I had one gun that I shot for 2 years as a Super and then I changed the barrel to 9 and shot it for another 2 years and I couldn't tell the difference, but then I'm just a Master at 93% TMC Don't count out the fact that you are already a Master. You have clearly learned more than the average guy who shoots this game. You could probably pick up my gun and shoot it well while still commenting that it's not nearly as flat as yours or even that it is flatter than yours. I'm only a B but I can pick up two different guns and sometimes feel a difference and sometimes not. I will say for sure that if a guy can shoot a Glock Open gun and win majors with it I have a lot of respect for his shooting ability. I have only shot one Glock Open gun and it was just plain nasty in the palm of my hand. Bucked like a mule and felt like a stick of TNT going off. Picked my gun up and it shot like a minor gun in comparison. During that same range trip another guy asked to shoot my gun since it seemed flatter than his STI based gun. He could not tell any difference until I reminded him about gas being the big difference in feel and handed him a mag of my ammo to try in both guns. He immediately noticed the improvement in both guns with my ammo. There are just so many factors it can be mind boggling. And this is what leads to the various opinions of flat. Even if a gun is not as flat as another it can still be shot well once the timing gets ironed out. Man and machine can learn to work together unless the machine is just too far out of balance. So practice and experience play a big part in it as well. Flex likes to say pick one and practice. In Production that made some sense to me but in Open it is invaluable advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmcc Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 I did appreciate that little experiment Sarge and you were right, I needed more gas to work the comp more. Problem now, I sold that gun and bought another so back to the drawing board! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 LOL back to the drawing board indeed! You had a very nice gun so I hope you got a good deal on a new one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoNsTeR Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 I have two Bedell 9 major guns and they work great. With upright C-More mounts, too. If I had it to do over again I would absolutely stick with 9 major. Re: extractors, if you have a 9, 38, or 40 and aren't using an Aftec, you are Doing It Wrong Lol alot of top smiths dont like Aftec extractors..and there guns run forever..I have a limited Fat free by Benny that has never failed, and a Brazos Pro SX that has never failed both have traditional extractors..I thionk caspian...are you saying they are doing something wrong?. Yep, even "top smiths" make mistakes and this would be one. Regular extractors lose tension over time, with an Aftec you can replace the springs instead of the extractor itself. Aftecs are harder and hold their shape and polish longer. Aftecs are stronger and break less often. If you have a stuck case a regular extractor will slip off the rim, an Aftec won't. The 1911's extractor is its long-recognized weakest link. The Aftec fixes that, and for a tiny cost. This probably sounds like an advertisement, but I don't have any financial stake in the Aftec this is just my opinion. When I see people having extractor problems it's with regular extractors or worn out springs. Properly fit Aftecs with adequate springs Work. It's such a powerful and obvious solution to an enormously frustrating problem, I seriously cannot fathom why anyone insists on using the old & busted technology instead of the new hotness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one! I shot 20K rounds last year, and finished 27th at the Open Nats, and my only malfunction of the whole match as when I dropped a big stick out of the gun on stage #1. DOH! I prefer a standard extractor, and personally believe the extra springs in the Aftec to be another "problem waiting to happen". But then that's why we call them "Opinions"! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphamikefoxtrot Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 One thing and one thing only would ever convince me to go to a 38SC.......Infinity won't make a 9mm major gun. I really like their guns, and I might, might, would consider shooting sc to be able to shoot theirs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cecil Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 interesting post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonglee0507 Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 True Weight in manila! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxbat Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 Infinity won't make a 9mm major gun. Then what, on Earth, they just sold me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxshooter Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 The design of the comp makes a difference in how much gas it takes to make it work. Prior to my 9 mm open guns I shot SV IMM 38 SC guns using 3N38 with a 124 gr Zero JHP. I run Silhouette with a Zero 124 JHP in the 9 mm guns and they are as flat as the SVs and have far less felt recoil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robot Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 My vote is for JPL Precision. Not only because I have one of his guns, but he was a pioneer who made 9mm major work reliably here in the Northwest. John knows his 9mm major http://jplprecision.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonglee0507 Posted February 8, 2013 Share Posted February 8, 2013 My 9mm major made by true weight custom in manila Sent from my iPhone 5 using Tapatalk 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xdmeister Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 Sti stock guns are the best. There are a perfect starting platform atleast and if there is anything wrong, sti will fix it in a jiffy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OpenDot Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 (edited) I have 2 open 9's, both run 100%. I've had top GM's shoot mine and they shoot them just as fast and accurate as a 38SC. Would i go SC if i have free brass...sure, then I could make bunny fart loads and run all over over the place hosing everything. LOL Edited February 12, 2013 by OpenDot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CocoBolo Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 I have 2 open 9's, both run 100%. I've had top GM's shoot mine and they shoot them just as fast and accurate as a 38SC. Would i go SC if i have free brass...sure, then I could make bunny fart loads and run all over over the place hosing everything. LOL I've had a few big dog daddy's shoot my 9 majors and all they said was "You are Cheating", soft and flat. The won't believe its major even after shooting it over the crono at 176pf. But there are some good reasons to shoot 38SC, none the least of which is brass cost, when I shot 38SC I never worried about buying brass I sprayed it with Dykem and loaded it till it split, started with 1,000 3 years later I had 5,000. The joy of loading 9 mm, is way over stated. Nothing like smashing primers having the round hung up in the loader hunting down pliers to pull them out or stopping to remove the shell plate. Then there is is mandatory magnet check, for those steel sucker hiding in the pile. So between crimped primer pockets, metal cases, blimped out cases, and having to shell out a few hundred dollars every year for once fired brass your happy face can get turned upside down. Did I mention the infernal powder slinging, and the frequent press cleaning sessions? On the turn side the 38SC is good brass, the reloading is slick just pull the handle for hours on end without an interruption, no powder all over the place. And the good thing is 38SC shoots just about as well as 9 major. In spite of the additional costs and trouble with 9 major I'm sticking with it, just because I enjoy not picking up brass. 2 of my guns have 38SC barrels and comps, if I feel the urge for 38SC just swap the barrel and ammo and shoot on, same SVI mags run either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austin rick Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 When Eddie put the 9 major barrel in my Dawson 38SC the extractor question never came up. The Aftec in it eats 9mm, 38 super and SC with no problem. I can go back and forth with a very small sight adjustment. I enjoy shooting them all, but especially like not chasing brass at matches. I'm glad I spent the money on the 9mm because I have lots of cheap brass and don't have to worry about backorders. Small rifle primers are a different story! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xdmeister Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 How much does gary natale usually charge to build an open gun with all supplied parts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PINMAN44 Posted February 18, 2013 Share Posted February 18, 2013 XDM check out his website and you can select what type of slide lightening you like and what parts you would like to use. It's all dependent on what you want to do, that is the true beauty of Gary and Gans. He is a master craftsman that will custom something to you. Hope that helps, his website is gansguns.com Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
falconpilot Posted February 18, 2013 Share Posted February 18, 2013 (edited) +1 on Gans...I've got one of his 9majors, and it has so far not had a single failure...of any sorts...I'm run STI and SV mags, both with and without spacers, 140's and 170's, and the gun doesn't care...it just eats whatever I put in it....I've been getting surprised looks from guys that I shoot with when they ask about the gun..and I tell them it's a 9major..most of them take a double take, and then comment that they can't believe it runs so well... Oh..did I mention...I don't have to worry about chasing brass now:) instead I can now spending my time trying to figure out how to not screw up the next stage:) Edited February 18, 2013 by falconpilot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillChunn Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 Matt Cheely converted my 38S to 9 Major and it runs. It just flat out runs. Dot stays within the lower A zone during recoil. He is in the process of converting my 2nd 38S to 9M and the latest word is that all the parts are in and it should be done by the end of March. It will have his new titanium comp designed for 9M. The up side to 38SC is that the loads that make major are within SAAMI pressure standards where the 124 grain 9 Major are not. The down side is the cost of brass and actually finding a few thousand SC for sale. Midway is showing them as out of stock with no back order. As already stated, at the larger "lost brass" matches, it doesn't hurt that bad to leave new 9mm brass on the ground for 12 cents each. Once fired is even cheaper than that at about 7 cents. SuperComp runs 19 to 20 cents each. Would I go back.... No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonglee0507 Posted March 6, 2013 Share Posted March 6, 2013 I have 2 open 9's, both run 100%. I've had top GM's shoot mine and they shoot them just as fast and accurate as a 38SC. Would i go SC if i have free brass...sure, then I could make bunny fart loads and run all over over the place hosing everything. LOL love your guns! you the man boss! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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