CHA-LEE Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Late last year one of our local clubs had an unannounced Chrono stage. I state that it was unannounced in the manner that it was not communicated that there would be a chrono stage before the match day. During the shooters meeting the morning of the match everyone was let known by the match director that one of the stages would be a chrono stage and your results on the stage would determine your power factor. This was obviously a surprise to everyone in attendance. The vast majority of shooters made their declared power factor but there was also a small group of shooters that didn't. Some of these shooters were upset about being caught off guard by the unannounced chrono stage having gone Minor or sub-Minor. Is having an unannounced chrono stage a benefit to the shooters to ensure that everyone is shooting their declared power factor? Or is it a detriment because it makes some shooters angry feeling like they have been trapped? Personally I am all for it. If it helps keep people honest or at least let them know that their load/barrel has changed over time to make it not compliant with their declared PF then its a win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maksim Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I am all for it. Unannounced is the whole point. I would assume the ones that would complain about it are the same that have a special baggie of ammo for major matches. Better someone find out they did not make minor/major at a local match than a major one, especially since most people do not own a chrono. I wish we ran more of these at the local level, especially since it would of prevent me going Minor at area 8 last year. I was going by the book load, and it turned out about 80fps slower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Some of these shooters were upset about being caught off guard by the unannounced chrono stage having gone Minor or sub-Minor. Sucks to be them. Is having an unannounced chrono stage a benefit to the shooters to ensure that everyone is shooting their declared power factor? Or is it a detriment because it makes some shooters angry feeling like they have been trapped? No where does it say Chronos are only for Level II and above, or must be announced in advanced. Personally I am all for it. If it helps keep people honest or at least let them know that their load/barrel has changed over time to make it not compliant with their declared PF then its a win.Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Some of these shooters were upset about being caught off guard by the unannounced chrono stage having gone Minor or sub-Minor. Would they have shot different ammo if they knew there was going to be a chrono? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbbean Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I'm a firm believer people should play by the rules. I do my best to operate according to that principle. But I also think "gotcha" traps take the fun out of a game, especially at the local club match level. An announced chrono stage would accomplish the goal of having shooters (at least those who reload and have access to a chrono) were operating within the rules, and would avoid giving shooters the impression that the match organizers were "out to get them." Personally, if I get beat at a level I, I work on the assumption they outshot me. I'm more concerned with how I can improve my performance than whether the guy who beat me had a 5 PF advantage. I also know that some factory ammo makes minor in a couple of my guns. I'd hate to see a new guy shooting an off the shelf gun and commercial ammo take a big hit because he has a slow barrel. Level II+ is a whole 'nother thing, though. Different set of expectations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted February 10, 2012 Author Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) I'm a firm believer people should play by the rules. I do my best to operate according to that principle. But I also think "gotcha" traps take the fun out of a game, especially at the local club match level. An announced chrono stage would accomplish the goal of having shooters (at least those who reload and have access to a chrono) were operating within the rules, and would avoid giving shooters the impression that the match organizers were "out to get them." Personally, if I get beat at a level I, I work on the assumption they outshot me. I'm more concerned with how I can improve my performance than whether the guy who beat me had a 5 PF advantage. I also know that some factory ammo makes minor in a couple of my guns. I'd hate to see a new guy shooting an off the shelf gun and commercial ammo take a big hit because he has a slow barrel. Level II+ is a whole 'nother thing, though. Different set of expectations. Your comments about a local match's main purpose is to be fun is the only thing that makes me think twice about the unannounced chrono situation. The primary purpose of a local match is to be fun and there are a lot of local shooters that will never go to a Level II or higher match. I also agree that setting a tone of "We are out to get you" isn't the right approach either from the match staff. We have had announced and unannounced chrono stages at local matches where I shoot. But I always find it disheartening when the unannounced ones almost always result in a larger group of non-compliance PF's than the announced ones Edited February 10, 2012 by CHA-LEE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shootingchef Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 This club may have had issues with folks not using ammo that makes power, whether it was on purpose or not...... I'm all for having a chrono at local matches, keeps people honest. The ones who are the most upset are the ones who knowingly brought the wrong ammo. May not make much different in Production, but in Limited, using minor ammo and declaring major is a advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dover0020 Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I agree we should all play by the rules. My suggestion would be at a local match give the shooter the benefit of the doubt with a margin of error of + or - 5 in PF and let the ones know who don't make PF that next time they will be bumpted to minor or shoot for no score. I think this allows people to save face and still keeps it fun for those who may never shoot a higher level match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 This club may have had issues with folks not using ammo that makes power, whether it was on purpose or not...... I'm all for having a chrono at local matches, keeps people honest. The ones who are the most upset are the ones who knowingly brought the wrong ammo. May not make much different in Production, but in Limited, using minor ammo and declaring major is a advantage. For shooters in Production, not making Minor PF means shooting for no score (ie. shooting for fun). I guess, this is perfect for those who say "It's just a Level I match, it's all for fun." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted February 10, 2012 Author Share Posted February 10, 2012 I agree we should all play by the rules. My suggestion would be at a local match give the shooter the benefit of the doubt with a margin of error of + or - 5 in PF and let the ones know who don't make PF that next time they will be bumpted to minor or shoot for no score. I think this allows people to save face and still keeps it fun for those who may never shoot a higher level match. I disagree with that idea. We need to follow the rules as defined in the rule book. There is a very detailed Chrono process listed in the Rule book and it needs to be followed when running a Chrono stage. The rules should be followed. Bending the rules to sooth ruffled feathers is the wrong approach. The vast majority of the time the guys that get pisses about not making their declared PF at a local match KNOW they were either pushing the envelope on the lower threshold of PF or are out right cheating. They are just frustrated that they got caught with their hand in the cookie jar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbbean Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 My suggestion would be at a local match give the shooter the benefit of the doubt with a margin of error of + or - 5 in PF and let the ones know who don't make PF that next time they will be bumpted to minor or shoot for no score. I think this allows people to save face and still keeps it fun for those who may never shoot a higher level match. I wouldn't go so far as to re-write the rulebook. If you;re going to have a chrono, you need to draw lines at 125 and 165. If you want to give people some leeway, you either don't run a chrono or offer an "informational only" chrono service after the match is over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dover0020 Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I agree we should all play by the rules. My suggestion would be at a local match give the shooter the benefit of the doubt with a margin of error of + or - 5 in PF and let the ones know who don't make PF that next time they will be bumpted to minor or shoot for no score. I think this allows people to save face and still keeps it fun for those who may never shoot a higher level match. I disagree with that idea. We need to follow the rules as defined in the rule book. There is a very detailed Chrono process listed in the Rule book and it needs to be followed when running a Chrono stage. The rules should be followed. Bending the rules to sooth ruffled feathers is the wrong approach. The vast majority of the time the guys that get pisses about not making their declared PF at a local match KNOW they were either pushing the envelope on the lower threshold of PF or are out right cheating. They are just frustrated that they got caught with their hand in the cookie jar. I see your point. I was thinking of the weekend warriors. I myself am serious about what I do in the shooting world and if I don't make PF I should pay the price it was just a suggestion to ease the pain for some who just shoot for fun. I do agree the rules are the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I agree we should all play by the rules. My suggestion would be at a local match give the shooter the benefit of the doubt with a margin of error of + or - 5 in PF and let the ones know who don't make PF that next time they will be bumpted to minor or shoot for no score. I think this allows people to save face and still keeps it fun for those who may never shoot a higher level match. I disagree with that idea. We need to follow the rules as defined in the rule book. Looks like you just answered your own question. This isn't about "got'cha". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davehorn Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I like the idea of an unannounced chrono. While we have to have a chrono stage at major matches, I'm not sure how much good it does, other than keep the honest folks honest. You're never going to catch the cheaters at chrono, only guys who made mistakes when loading(not that it matters with respect to the rules), the cheaters ammo will always make PF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calvary45 Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I like the idea of the unannounced chrono stage, especially having unannounced chronos in different temps and seasons to see how temperature sensitive my powder is, also helps keep everybody honest. If someone throws a hissy fit hand them a rulebook an tell them to study Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 Nice to hear about this. We have discussed it as well for our clubs. No gotcha's involved at all, look at it as an educational experience for the shooters. Level 1 is just as much about competition as any level match. The idea that it is just for fun, well, why keep score if it is just for fun? Like saying we have to make the Texas Star rotate slower for the new shooters. Clubs agree to abide by USPSA rules when they sign on to do USPSA matches. No smorgasbord here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flatland Shooter Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 I bet its interesting to see how many and who head out to their vehicles for extra ammo. (Rule 10.6.1) Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 I agree we should all play by the rules. My suggestion would be at a local match give the shooter the benefit of the doubt with a margin of error of + or - 5 in PF and let the ones know who don't make PF that next time they will be bumpted to minor or shoot for no score. I think this allows people to save face and still keeps it fun for those who may never shoot a higher level match. allowing people to cheat does not save face, the chrono procedures are spelled out pretty clearly in the rule book. I dont agree with the attitude that a match isnt fun unless we let people cheat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidnal Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 (edited) Two thumbs up for the chrono. If people accidently go minor then they'll be glad it isn't a major match and shoot more accurately. If they are purposely gaming (cheating) then...they deserve to shoot minor! No exceptions. Using a surprise chrono would promote fair competition. Edited February 11, 2012 by sidnal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 (edited) <thread drift> Gaming and cheating are two completely different things. Gaming = looking for every advantage within the rules. Cheating = breaking the rules. </thread drift> Edited February 11, 2012 by sperman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 If you have the room, staff and time to run a chrono on a monthly lvl 1 match more power to you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supermoto Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 I'm all for an unannounced chrono as long as it doesn't delay the match. I'm not sure how you get caught off guard with an unannounced chrono if you believe your ammo is making the declared PF. The only way to get caught off guard is if you know you aren't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 The chrono was on a small classifier stage, everyone on the squad went through the chrono, then moved forward to the classifier. It was a good way to balance the stages (the others were all field stages) so there was no backup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 I'm a firm believer people should play by the rules. I do my best to operate according to that principle. But I also think "gotcha" traps take the fun out of a game, especially at the local club match level. An announced chrono stage would accomplish the goal of having shooters (at least those who reload and have access to a chrono) were operating within the rules, and would avoid giving shooters the impression that the match organizers were "out to get them." An unannounced chrono stage would make it MORE fun for me. I haven't been to any match with a chrono yet, so I finally just gave up and bought one because I believe in playing within the rules.... plus it's fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 ....because I believe in playing within the rules.... Nuff said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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