Speed vs. Accuracy

[JoseyWalesX]

Hi guys, fairly new to the forum and competition shooting so I hope this is the right area to post this question.

I have shot 4 USPSA matches and was wondering how do I determine when I should sacrifice some accuracy in order to shoot a stage faster. Is there a certain percentage of A's that I should shoot before I speed up?

Any tips would be appreciated.

Thanks!

[Dr Mitch]

As you increase the percentage of A's you shoot, you begin your journey into not sacrificing accuracy. Work on your speed of focus with your eyes, by doing hard focus drills.

You are going to want to try anything you can to do better, but practicing is the only thing that will work in the long run. I point-shoot/index shoot/type x focus-shoot like a master, but found that it carried only so far, and am resolved to improving my accuracy and developing speed with it. It took a while to come this decision, and admit that it is disappointing. But there's no turning back.

[Paul Burtchell]

A good starting point in your search.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=9134&st=0

LOTS of threads on this subject.

[dover0020]

A rule of thumb I try to use is get 90-95% of the point available on each stage as fast as I can. If I'm getting less then I know I need to slow down.

[G-ManBart]

Lots and lots of threads/posts on this. The short answer...get 95% of the available points, as fast as possible, is where you'll get the best results. As you get better, you'll be able to shoot the same percentage faster, and your results will get better. Look at most stages at major matches, and they're won with something around that percentage of points. Some references:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=92597&view=findpost&p=1061773

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=85837&view=findpost&p=988737

Part 2 of Flex’s Wanna-be-speedy:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=9655&view=findpost&p=111598

Part 3:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=10388&view=findpost&p=120319

[Hi-Power Jack]

how do I determine when I should sacrifice accuracy to shoot a stage faster.

Josey, you want to see the sights each time - shoot slow & do everything else fast.

Just hit the target "all the time" - move faster, draw faster, reload

faster, don't make mistakes, but shoot as quickly as you see the sights

on the A zone,

Try the dot torture target:). It really helps.

Jack

[cas]

Okay, now I'll give you the bad advice. My motto is "Heck, I can shoot slow anytime."

I'm shooting for fun. Shooting fast is more fun than shooting slow.

[APL-G35]

If I had it to do all over again I wouldn't worry about the speed of my shooting. I would focus more on stage breakdown and all the administrative tasks you perform throughout the match. I think for the average shooter there is way more time In these than fast splits or even fast transitions for that matter.

[JoseyWalesX]

Thanks for the replies guys

[jeep45238]

You can't miss fast enough to catch up.

[lugnut]

I agree with almost all the posts above and the others related to this post. However... I don't agree 100% with getting X% of As... although it's always a goal to get As. Hell everyone knows that- no one aims for Cs and Ds.

Here's the real breakdown.. now it's just a guideline because the relationship of time to points and vice versa will change if you slow down, get more As, etc.

A 4HF stage: 1Point= .25s

A 5HF stage: 1Point = .2s

A10HF stage: 1Point=.1s

You don't need to do a ton of analysis to figure out that losing points hurts you much more is a "slower" COF with a lower HF. But here's something to always think about- even in a COF with a 10HF... A miss "costs" you roughly 1.5seconds! You lose 5 potential points and get 10 penalty points... that's equivalent to giving up 1.5 seconds! But on the same COF- if you dropped 2 points (say you got a C vs. an A in minor)... that's roughly .2 secs. If you called your shot and can make up that C with an A in less than .2secs then do it. But if you've blown by the target or need to lean out around a barricade again to reengage that target.. you might reconsider. Now a miss on a low HF stage (say 4 HF) will cost you almost 4 seconds!!! Think about that!

In a very simple view of this.. points are always important... hell 0 points in the fastest time won't do you good for shit. However the points are more "valuable" in the stages with lower hit factors.

Just something to think about.

Edited January 11, 2012 by lugnut

[pjb45]

When I started, I got Classified C right off the bat. I was moving pretty quickly but my points were way down. I stayed there for a long time because of training scars.

When I finally got some great instruction, I started paying attention to my accuracy. On this forum, you will hear about calling your shots. This is the one concept you should work on, day in and day out. You need to know where your shot will go when you pull the trigger, you need to see the sight settle into its spot before you pull the trigger without moving the barrel.

You can work on moving faster from spot to spot but your ability to see your sights lift and settle is critical for improvement.

You will need to work on your movement but your actual shooting will require seeing your sights lift and settle.

[Sin-ster]

Anywhere you can pick up speed is going to improve your score. The importance/significant gains of certain actions however is skewed, based upon your current skill level and the goals you hope to achieve.

In your case, the biggest gains are going to be made in everything BUT the shooting. Proper stage break down and movement between/through arrays are likely the spots in which you're losing the most time right now. If I get into the first position .5 seconds faster, start shooting it .5 seconds earlier, leave the position (assuming the same amount of time actually on the trigger) .5 seconds quicker and "land" at the next position .5 seconds sooner... I'm up 2 seconds on you already, at just the first array! (Add .5 for the draw and .5 on the reload, and now it's 3 seconds.)

Upper C and lower B class begin to benefit from the more technical gun handling skills, as well as improvements in some areas of the shooting. Drawstroke, reloads, and transitions between targets seem to be the best spots to pick up a lot of time, provided the previously mentioned skills are already up to snuff.

From that point on, it's a matter of really mastering all of these skills-- the gains you're chasing, regardless of where they're coming from, are measured in fractions of a second (that add up over an entire CoF).

You can't be too slow on your shot-to-shot splits, and spending time on your technique is obviously important. But if the sights are tracking properly, you're visually patient (but not overly so), and your trigger press is working, the speed will come with repetition and there's nothing really to be gained by working the trigger any faster.

If you're shooting .3 splits and your competition is running .25, across a 32 shot stage (assuming no make ups), you are giving up 1.6 seconds-- drastically less than you gave up on just the first array in the first example where "shooting" was removed from the equation.

[Poppa Bear]

I do not worry a lot about dropping points into the C zone. I do not like dropping them into the D zone or getting Mikes. My attitude as I examine the targets though is how far outside the A zone are the C hits? What direction are the C hits in relation to the target engaged? A C zone hit that is less than an inch away from an A zone hit on a target that I transitioned into means my speed is just about right, especially if the A zone hit is solidly in the middle. I rarely drop C's low, if anything they might be high due to a NS. Do not push it any faster than you can get everything into the A zone or less than 1 inch into the C zone. Then put the rest of your effort into charging into position, out of position, and between positions with better stage planning. That is where you really make or break your HF.

[twodownzero]

Been doing this for years and getting 95% of the points consistently is still a challenge for me. Whatever speed has come, it has come during this pursuit. In other words, just shoot.

If you read Brian's book, you'll realize that time is all relative to your vision anyway. So once you get faster, it doesn't seem or feel any faster. The reason is that you're seeing more, and that your perception of time--not some objective measure of time in seconds--is what has changed.

If you focus on the shooting, and making efficient movements while doing so, the speed will come, and you will likely not notice until you see the timer.

If Bob Vogel knew that he was faster than the open guys, even while shooting L-10 out of a Production-legal rig and reloading every 8 shots, he wouldn't be as fast as he is. The timer tells the real story. He shot the stage I RO'ed him on faster than nearly anyone else at the match, despite making 3 reloads. Of course he knows that he's fast, but he couldn't possibly "know" he's THAT fast.

In short, time is just perception. Shooting is the task. Do it well and the time will come.

[wdlong1]

just to add my tidbit -- most of the advice above I agree with, but most of it is predicated on being able to call your shots. For the beginner (which I am for sure) this can be very difficult, and only now after quite a bit of practice am I just starting to be able to call them without looking and still am often wrong. This is a critical skill and I do not believe is possible if you are just trying to shoot as fast as you can.

Of course you could cheat on both accuracy and speed and just go straight to open class, both will improve dramatically instantly. Those damn red dots really do work!!

[wdlong1]

Been doing this for years and getting 95% of the points consistently is still a challenge for me. Whatever speed has come, it has come during this pursuit. In other words, just shoot.

If you read Brian's book, you'll realize that time is all relative to your vision anyway. So once you get faster, it doesn't seem or feel any faster. The reason is that you're seeing more, and that your perception of time--not some objective measure of time in seconds--is what has changed.

If you focus on the shooting, and making efficient movements while doing so, the speed will come, and you will likely not notice until you see the timer.

If Bob Vogel knew that he was faster than the open guys, even while shooting L-10 out of a Production-legal rig and reloading every 8 shots, he wouldn't be as fast as he is. The timer tells the real story. He shot the stage I RO'ed him on faster than nearly anyone else at the match, despite making 3 reloads. Of course he knows that he's fast, but he couldn't possibly "know" he's THAT fast.

In short, time is just perception. Shooting is the task. Do it well and the time will come.

good grief -- I think that is the best advice I have ever read. Seriously -- that is was makes this forum great.

[Xander]

+1

[38supPat]

I've grown to dislike the 95% advice, it basically tell you it's ok to drop points and you go into a stage accepting poor sight pictures because " it's ok to drop a few" I'm preferring to go at stages now with the intent of shooting all A's realizing that under the stress of a stage I will probably drop a couple outside the A zone. When you go at it with the 95% plan you accept C sight pictures that become D's and Mikes under the stress of a stage.

[Seth]

Honestly... here's the dirty little secret. SOMEONE out there can shoot all the points just as fast as the fastest guy can miss. There's no room for dropping points at speed if you want to win.

Look at the nationals winners from last year... Of the 1830 possible points, Smitty shot 1730 points to win limited.. Ben Stoeger was in the same boat, 1830 possible, 1729 shot. Max shot 1783 of 1850. Max also won or took 2nd in 13 of 20 stages.

Certainly there's the need to balance the accuracy with the speed, but in the end, you MUST figure out how to shoot maximum points at top speed to be a winner.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Seth

[Flexmoney]

I've grown to dislike the 95% advice,...

Me too.

I also dislike the very nothing of "balancing" the points and speed. It's like a dog chasing his own tail. Any time we pit this VS. that we set a limit. It places the focus in the wrong area. We end up with thinking we will give up one thing in favor of the other. (And, since we all wanna-b-speedy ...we know how that ends up.)

Instead, we need to develop (and maintain) the mental discipline to truly allow our vision to drive us while shooting.

[Xander]

Instead, we need to develop (and maintain) the mental discipline to truly allow our vision to drive us while shooting.

very true indeed

[wdlong1]

I've grown to dislike the 95% advice,...

Me too.

I also dislike the very nothing of "balancing" the points and speed. It's like a dog chasing his own tail. Any time we pit this VS. that we set a limit. It places the focus in the wrong area. We end up with thinking we will give up one thing in favor of the other. (And, since we all wanna-b-speedy ...we know how that ends up.)

Instead, we need to develop (and maintain) the mental discipline to truly allow our vision to drive us while shooting.

That is the beauty of this sport. I prefer to shoot as fast as I can and be as accurate as possible. But I admire the accuracy only guys and I admire the speed only guys (although to be honest a little less...my seven year old is pretty fast)

There is certainly room for everyone and we seem to have evolved a scoring system that rewards and punishes both equally.

[Graham Smith]

One thing to bear in mind about the percentage of points is that there is a big difference between major and minor and between 90% and 95%.

Shooting major, you can get 90% of the points by shooting half A's and half C's, to get 95% you have to shoot 75% A's.

Shooting minor, you have to get something like 83% A's to get 90% of the points and something like 90% A's to get 95% of the points. IOW on a 32 round course, you could only have 2 or 3 C's.

[mikeg1005]

I think the 90-95% thing is an almost arbitrary when you really get down to it. Now, I still fall for it and compare my scores at times, but it is in my opinion a bandaid/shortcut for people who are either new to the sport/or refuse to analyze their own shooting.

Telling a new shooter, shoot the targets as fast as you see them, and bust your ass when you aren't shooting is a VERY open ended answer... there isn't much guidance there, and I think a lot of people have a quanitative approach to this sport when they are new... so instead saying going fast enough to get 95% of your hits makes more sense to them... its something that is measurable and that they can strive for... and ya it works for shooters as a beginning goal until they can develope skills to analyze their shooting, the stage. One thing I don't see mentioned ever is always strive for 100% of your hits, and if you get 95% thats acceptable... I would hope that people come to the line with intentions to get all their hits, but if you don't then you need to analyze your approach to a stage.

For more experienced shooters, the 95% thing really has to be dropped... because comparing your performance base on this number really doesn't tell you anything. Did you throw 3 charlies on long/hard shots? Or did you shoot a delta on a 2 yard target? The 1st might be acceptable(target may be very far/partially covered/it would take a lot of time) but the later, unacceptable by most standards. And without analyzing your individual lost points, and just looking at the overall %, you will never know.

This sport has a heavy dependency on both shooting AND thinking... and while 90-95% is a number that "usually works"... every stage/match/group of shooters are different and trying to incorporate all of this into a set of guidelines will never work.

Mike.