Poll on 3lb trigger limit in Production

[GrumpyOne]

This issue seems to be mirroring our current bout with Washington. They (Washington) make decisions on what they think is best for the country. They think they know whats best for us better than we do! They do not listen when the overwhelming majority of citizens pursue an issue! I think the BOD has taken a page from the Washington Playbook.... I do not really care one way or the other. Just tell me what the rule is and i will comply. However, the BOD should be responsive to the needs of the members. NOT the members to be responsive to the needs of the BOD.....

jm2c

If we made you tie one arm behind your back, and strapped a 20lb sledge to your trigger, you would still out shoot most of us in this state

Looking forward to shooting again in Wildwood one day, but please clean up the cow patties

Don't clean them up! Make stepping in one a procedural!

[grapemeister]

Well, damn it, I've changed my mind again. The new rule is no good. I won't go into it, but somebody sent me some really good info. I've received an education, to say the least. I said some stuff on this forum out of ignorance, I admit that.

Nuff said, I'm way behind on relaoding, and I haven't practiced in three days. No more Enos forum for a while.

Chris

[vluc]

Well, damn it, I've changed my mind again. The new rule is no good. I won't go into it, but somebody sent me some really good info. I've received an education, to say the least. I said some stuff on this forum out of ignorance, I admit that.

Nuff said, I'm way behind on relaoding, and I haven't practiced in three days. No more Enos forum for a while.

Chris

Post that info, give educations to the readers out there. If you have good stuff, share it.

Edited December 29, 2011 by vluc

[lugnut]

I am a full time production shooter now, I do not agree to the 3lb first pull. We have IDPA for that.

You need to know what you're talking about. IDPA has no trigger pull limit in any divison, equipment restrictions in Stock Service Pistol are, I believe, less restrictive than in USPSA production.

Posts like Torogi's make me wonder if the poll is really a good representation of rational people that know what they are talking about. I shoot both IDPA and USPSA, as I'm sure many here do as well- but when people make ridiculous comments like that I wonder if they are just making stuff up... or just repeating something someone else told them.

Why do some folks always take pleasure in making derogatory comments like that about other shooting sports? This thread and the others regarding the new Production rules have nothing to do with IDPA... it's about USPSA rules!

If someone made a comment that USPSA Production should be more about self defense-like scenarios then sure, mentioning IDPA as a viable alternative would make some sense at least....

OT- I like the way Production is today. No changes are needed IMO. Why not consider some of the other divisions that AREN'T growing? Let the BoD come up with some ideas to help make Revo a better attended division for example. Every statist I've seen shows Production is doing damn well almost everywhere. I'm not saying that we will never need rule changes... but clearly something is working.

There is NO WAY an average Glock/M&P guy/gal can't get his/her trigger to be competitive with any other gun for under $100. Including the trigger work- it's still cheaper than almost all the others.. certainly cheaper than CZs and Sigs.

Edited December 29, 2011 by lugnut

[atbarr]

Again---let's see: Glock G17, change the sights, drop in the Challenger trigger group that USPSA sells ON ITS WEBSITE----

So where was the problem again?

http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-store-product-details.php?Production-Trigger-Kit-from-Glocktriggers.com-108 Whoops!

[MoNsTeR]

I started shooting Production with a bone-stock G19. And y'know what, I did pretty well with that little gun, because I had spent the previous 2 years shooting groups two or three times a week. I still have that G19 and I would not hesitate to compete with it again, even though I moved on to shooting a G34 with a 2.25# trigger. I know I post better scores with the G34, but not by much, and probably more because of the sights than the trigger.

I guess I just don't see what the point of the new rule is. Production is fine as it is. If anything is holding it back, it's the seemingly unending series of asinine rule "interpretations" coming out of NROI/USPSA HQ. If we want to do away with "no external mods" and go to something simpler, sure I'll give you that "3lb first pull" is indeed simpler, but y'know what's simpler still? No rule at all. But somehow I doubt that what we're truly trying to maximize is simplicity.

In fact, I have no idea what we're trying to accomplish. And until I see a solid chain of reasoning laid out, my position will remain "no changes, please".

[grapemeister]

Well, damn it, I've changed my mind again. The new rule is no good. I won't go into it, but somebody sent me some really good info. I've received an education, to say the least. I said some stuff on this forum out of ignorance, I admit that.

Nuff said, I'm way behind on relaoding, and I haven't practiced in three days. No more Enos forum for a while.

Chris

Post that info, give educations to the readers out there. If you have good stuff, share it.

The info (arguments against the new rule) for the most part is what has been said in this forum, and BoD Meeting forum. The reasons for voting against the new rule were put together in a list and worded in a way that made a lot of since to me. I read it several times with an open mind, but also at the same time tried to think of arguments for each point made. In the end I couldn’t do it, and kept coming back to each point made against the new rule as being valid, and making a whole lot of since to me.

I haven’t gotten permission to cut and paste the info on this forum, but basically I was enlightened as to the can of worms this new rule will open. The way I see it now, it won’t really accomplish anything, but cause a whole bunch of unnecessary problems, and headaches. It won’t make the production division a bone stock division: it’s too late for that, and it won’t level the playing field but do the opposite when it comes to dealing with the whole SA/DA issue.

Like many folks have said already, the Production division, along with rules about internal parts, has worked this long, and it still is our most popular and fastest growing division. Leave the rules as they are, and we’ll be fine.

[TGO]

It's interesting that more people are responding to this poll than shoot the class, or close to it!

Rob

[BritinUSA]

It's interesting that more people are responding to this poll than shoot the class, or close to it!

Rob

Division, Rob... its called a division

[gmantwo]

I think Production should be PRODUCTION. THAT takes the equipment race out of the equation. Shoot it box stock or don't shoot it at all. And if you shoot the same gun in production at Bianchi, it has to have a 3.5lb trigger anyway

[Loves2Shoot]

I think Production should be PRODUCTION. THAT takes the equipment race out of the equation. Shoot it box stock or don't shoot it at all.

On what planet does that make sense? It does exactly the opposite. If I buy a Glock with a crappy trigger and worse sights, I can't change a thing under your logic, but I can spend $1500-3000 on a pistol with nice sights and good trigger because it comes out of a much nicer "box."

PLEASE explain how that takes the "equipment race" out of Production, PLEASE. No one has yet done it on this forum.

[smokshwn]

I think Production should be PRODUCTION. THAT takes the equipment race out of the equation. Shoot it box stock or don't shoot it at all. And if you shoot the same gun in production at Bianchi, it has to have a 3.5lb trigger anyway

In what world does that end the equipment race?

It only moves the race from a shooter's workbench to the gun counter. Instead of being able to purchase a glock and add a little elbow grease polishing parts and replacing a disconnector and some springs, a shooter is now forced to buy one of the already available, out of the box options (CZ , Sphinx, XDM etc) to be competitive. Ultimately each manufacturer will then be forced to build an all out production gun to compete in the marketplace and you have only succeeded in pissing on the backs of current production shooters.

YAY for your idea

[Lee G]

I think Production should be PRODUCTION. THAT takes the equipment race out of the equation. Shoot it box stock or don't shoot it at all.

On what planet does that make sense? It does exactly the opposite. If I buy a Glock with a crappy trigger and worse sights, I can't change a thing under your logic, but I can spend $1500-3000 on a pistol with nice sights and good trigger because it comes out of a much nicer "box."

PLEASE explain how that takes the "equipment race" out of Production, PLEASE. No one has yet done it on this forum.

Seriously, I just don't get how any one can say it's an equipment race in production. If I had to shoot completely "stock" pistols I think it would lose it's appeal altogether with me. It's a game for the love of God. Where else can you buy a used $400 glock, XD or M&P, 80$ on sights and $150 on a trigger and have a 100% competitive platform? That's about a $630 dollar gun, $700-800 if you decide to go new. My two production guns are an XD that I've got about $1000 in and an CZ Shadow at about $1200. The XD has Scott's competition trigger job at 3.5# and my CZ is set at 4#DA/2#SA. I don't know that either give me a real advantage but I consider them both to be top of the line production guns. How much are the open, limited and SS guys spending for their top of the line? 3k-5k?

Is production really an "entry level" division? Do we really have to have "entry level" pistols mandated? How about we just make it stock Ruger P89's and hope for the best? How many production shooters really give 2 craps about what someone else's trigger weighs? It seems like most of the arguing for the restrictions is coming from everyone but production shooters.

[Sin-ster]

No I wasn't actually talking about bows and arrows, although that is the visual image the statement leads most to view.

I was saying that equipment also plays into the equation.

As Production is currently structured and administered, all of the equipment has the ability to play on a fairly level playing field, IMO. When this happens it does become about the Indian and not the arrow. However, a rule change can tilt the playing field one way or another. I think this is an area USPSA needs to tread lightly.

Oh, I agree whole heartedly in that case. Especially about the "way Production is currently structured and administered" bit.

And indeed, this rule could in theory make the equipment LESS balanced than it is currently.

I just wanted to clarify that when we're talking about no more than 16 ounces of TP, it's definitely NOT the arrow.

Edited December 30, 2011 by Sin-ster

[Micah]

Again---let's see: Glock G17, change the sights, drop in the Challenger trigger group that USPSA sells ON ITS WEBSITE----

So where was the problem again?

http://www.uspsa.org...riggers.com-108 Whoops!

Gotta agree with that. I am a frequent Production shooter and feel that there are plenty of legal drop in and tune-ups available for Springfield, S&W, CZ, Beretta, HiPoint (I know ) and Glock that will bring the trigger down to the 3-4lbs mark. That being said, I do not feel that there needs to be the addition of stipulations to the division. Laissez faire baby!

[West Texas Granny]

It's interesting that more people are responding to this poll than shoot the class, or close to it!

Rob

Could be they don't want this contagion ( rule changes for the sake of "?" ) spreading into the " division/class/ group or (fill in the blank) _________________ that they shoot in.

[Henry625]

You can call it what you want, but the "competitive shooter" will always try to tweek his / her equipment searching for that small edge that allows them to perform better and score higher. USPSA shooting is a game PERIOD, it's not for self defense although it does help with your gun handling skills.

In all games, the sport breeds invention in the gear to give competitors the ability to perform at a high level. You can make this division as benign as possible, I know that someone or some company will come out with some product or gunsmith procedure that will enhance the firearm in question.

Leave production division alone, it works. I am shooting a match this Sunday, 3/4 of the nearly 50 pre registered shooters to date are shooting production division. That says all that you need to know. Production is the division for the person who only wants to invest just so much money into this sport and where they can feel as competitive as they want to be.

Quit trying the old and tired socialist program of making everyone absolutely equal, you can't.

[TGO]

I think Production should be PRODUCTION. THAT takes the equipment race out of the equation. Shoot it box stock or don't shoot it at all. And if you shoot the same gun in production at Bianchi, it has to have a 3.5lb trigger anyway

Wow, don't bring the Bianchi Cup issue in now. You can not shoot a high score with a box stock gun at that match.

The whole point people seem to have missed here is that the rules are there to allow all types and models be made to perform at an equal level. And Cheaply at that!

The rules now are very easy to police, do allow fair and equal competition and in general work very well.

Box stock does not, can not and never will.

Although some may think that you can put all the guns in there and it will come down to only the shooter, this is just not true. The trend would lean to whichever platform was superior, regardless of how little that advantage might be.

Sure at the beginning a shooter doesn't know what he might want, but it won't take long for you to get tired of competing with what you may feel is a disadvantage.

I think I'm with Chuck on this one and am going to now just let this discussion run it's own course. Have fun.

Rob

[TGO]

It's interesting that more people are responding to this poll than shoot the class, or close to it!

Rob

Division, Rob... its called a division

Yea I know, but I'm Rob and I'm old and I can say nucular if I want.

Rob

[vluc]

I think Production should be PRODUCTION. THAT takes the equipment race out of the equation. Shoot it box stock or don't shoot it at all. And if you shoot the same gun in production at Bianchi, it has to have a 3.5lb trigger anyway

What the others have said. Two terms that frequently come up with Production that need to be removed from the lexicon are "entry level" and "equipment race". If you don't want an equipment race, then petition the rules to have only one (1) type of gun that is allowable. That way all equipment is the same. As soon as a second type, that is different, is introduced, the race has begun. Same with bullets, sights, primers, springs, etc.

I don't agree with the concepts of levels in USPSA insofar as the Divisions are concerned (see, Rob, I know what they are! ). You don't start in one then graduate up to another. They are fluid and people move back and forth, with no need to have mastery in one before moving to another. One can just as easily call Limited an entry level since just as many people, when they start, can play in it.

You don't have to be a competitor to want the optimal performance from your equipment from within what has been allowed. I don't compete with anyone regarding my smartphone, but I optimize it to the extent I can with rooting and custom ROM's. Same with my E-book reader and my new tablet.

It is the nature of some people to push the envelopes and get the most they can. Others are content to have very strict guidelines drawn for them. Odd that we attract both in a sport that values freestyle.

Edited December 30, 2011 by vluc

[gemcityshooter]

I think Production should be PRODUCTION. THAT takes the equipment race out of the equation. Shoot it box stock or don't shoot it at all. And if you shoot the same gun in production at Bianchi, it has to have a 3.5lb trigger anyway

What the others have said. Two terms that frequently come up with Production that need to be removed from the lexicon are "entry level" and "equipment race". If you don't want an equipment race, then petition the rules to have only one (1) type of gun that is allowable. That way all equipment is the same. As soon as a second type, that is different, is introduced, the race has begun. Same with bullets, sights, primers, springs, etc.

I don't agree with the concepts of levels in USPSA insofar as the Divisions are concerned (see, Rob, I know what they are! ). You don't start in one then graduate up to another. They are fluid and people move back and forth, with no need to have mastery in one before moving to another. One can just as easily call Limited an entry level since just as many people, when they start, can play in it.

You don't have to be a competitor to want the optimal performance from your equipment from within what has been allowed. I don't compete with anyone regarding my smartphone, but I optimize it to the extent I can with rooting and custom ROM's. Same with my E-book reader and my new tablet.

It is the nature of some people to push the envelopes and get the most they can. Others are content to have very strict guidelines drawn for them. Odd that we attract both in a sport that values freestyle.

I think Vince worded this nicely. Production isn't entry level. Production is just guns with minimal mods. I posted earlier that I liked that Production was a stock gun division. Let me reword my previous statement a bit - I like production because it is a division with very few mods allowed. The production division (am I using this term correctly?)allows mods that most everyone is already putting in their own guns anyway, competitor or not. Who wouldn't like a Glock with a sweet trigger?

[GrumpyOne]

I think Production should be PRODUCTION. THAT takes the equipment race out of the equation. Shoot it box stock or don't shoot it at all. And if you shoot the same gun in production at Bianchi, it has to have a 3.5lb trigger anyway

What the others have said. Two terms that frequently come up with Production that need to be removed from the lexicon are "entry level" and "equipment race". If you don't want an equipment race, then petition the rules to have only one (1) type of gun that is allowable. That way all equipment is the same. As soon as a second type, that is different, is introduced, the race has begun. Same with bullets, sights, primers, springs, etc.

I don't agree with the concepts of levels in USPSA insofar as the Divisions are concerned (see, Rob, I know what they are! ). You don't start in one then graduate up to another. They are fluid and people move back and forth, with no need to have mastery in one before moving to another. One can just as easily call Limited an entry level since just as many people, when they start, can play in it.

You don't have to be a competitor to want the optimal performance from your equipment from within what has been allowed. I don't compete with anyone regarding my smartphone, but I optimize it to the extent I can with rooting and custom ROM's. Same with my E-book reader and my new tablet.

It is the nature of some people to push the envelopes and get the most they can. Others are content to have very strict guidelines drawn for them. Odd that we attract both in a sport that values freestyle.

I think Vince worded this nicely. Production isn't entry level. Production is just guns with minimal mods. I posted earlier that I liked that Production was a stock gun division. Let me reword my previous statement a bit - I like production because it is a division with very few mods allowed. The production division (am I using this term correctly?)allows mods that most everyone is already putting in their own guns anyway, competitor or not. Who wouldn't like a Glock with a sweet trigger?

People who don't like Glocks.....is who wouldn't like one.

[bbbean]

The whole point people seem to have missed here is that the rules are there to allow all types and models be made to perform at an equal level. And Cheaply at that!

The rules now are very easy to police, do allow fair and equal competition and in general work very well.

+1! Very well put, TGO.

[beltjones]

I guess I just don't see what the point of the new rule is. Production is fine as it is. If anything is holding it back, it's the seemingly unending series of asinine rule "interpretations" coming out of NROI/USPSA HQ. If we want to do away with "no external mods" and go to something simpler, sure I'll give you that "3lb first pull" is indeed simpler, but y'know what's simpler still? No rule at all. But somehow I doubt that what we're truly trying to maximize is simplicity.

In fact, I have no idea what we're trying to accomplish. And until I see a solid chain of reasoning laid out, my position will remain "no changes, please".

This.

BoD (present company excepted) likes to blame shooters for pushing the boundaries, but for every boundary that was overstepped there is a DNROI ruling that says it's ok. Maybe they should start there?

Even if all Production shooters were issued the same guns there would still be a race for the best ammo, the best holster, the best shoes, the best grip lotion, the best eye protection, and so on. As long as people want to win there will always be equipment races, and the key to making new shooters comfortable is not to assume you can lower anything to their level, it's to get them involved in the sport earlier and with better information. Instead of blaming the perception that modified triggers are what helps people win, how about pushing the concept that PRACTICE is what helps people win?

[BBoyle]

If it is going to be 3 pounds then make it a minimum of 3 pounds for every shot fired and none of the BS about just the first for a course of fire!!!!!! I think that there may be a nice DA/SA in my future after next season. Can I send the BOD a bill for any modifications that have to be made for the 2013 season??????

Brian

PS. I just changed all of the lightbulbs in my house. Not for no reason but to fix them before they break!