Poll on 3lb trigger limit in Production

[Skydiver]

The bigger question is how is this going to be measured consistently at both major and local matches? The rules for a "simple and straight forward" chronograph check take up pages of the rule book- and they should. How are we going to accurately and consistently measure trigger pull? I'm not well informed, but my limited understanding is that extactly where and how the weight is hung can make a huge difference. Can't wait for the arbitrations.

Maybe wiser heads can explain how this will work in real life. (Not that it matters to me, my CZ is nowhere close to 3 lbs SA.)

Eric

And notice not a single paragraph in the rule book about how to use the magazine measurement gauges, but somehow we've have several major matches since those gauges were accepted by DNROI ruling.

[G-ManBart]

Seriously, it takes this much discussion to figure this out folks?

Look at virtually all the serious competitors (in any class) shooting Production, and they're not shooting "normal" Glocks, M&Ps, CZs, etc...they're usually shooting G34s, M&P Pros, Shadow Custom, etc. From the get go, those aren't really production guns in the truest sense...they're guns that were made to conform to the rules we came up with. Hello, they're gamer guns folks, they're just not extremely expensive! Can you carry one of them? Sure, but how many people really do that?...very, very, very few. If not for USPSA/IPSC/IDPA, it's almost certain none of those guns would have ever been made.

Once you're buying a specialized gun, does the trigger pull weight really make all that much difference?

When I talk to people (usually at work) about starting out in USPSA, I tell them they can show up with their duty gun, mags, etc, and do just fine in Production. I then tell them that if they like it, and want to get serious, they can buy something like one of the previously mentioned guns, slap some sights on it, add a drop-in trigger job, and be ready to rock and roll for something like $150 or so over the price of the gun. They almost always say "oh, that's not bad at all" because they were expecting something far more expensive.

A trigger job, sights, maybe a spring or two, and some grip tape isn't keeping anybody from starting USPSA shooting, but a change to those sorts of things will certainly anger, or drive away, some current competitors. Before we try to grow the sport, we should try to retain those folks we already have.

Back to my regularly scheduled program....

[GForceLizard]

WTF is with all this talk about shooting a production gun the way you bought it from the store? You can shoot a Glock with stock sights. But the sights are plastic. You don't want plastic sights on any real gun that you might want to use outside of competition. You are expected to replace the stock plastic crap sights.

[ErichF]

I'm still trying to figure out how a "production" gun is synonymous with "carry suitable", and therefore should only look and operate like a "carry suitable" gun. There's a ton of mass-produced (the real definition of a "production" gun)guns like the Desert Eagle that aren't necessarily "carry-suitable".

[LPatterson]

WTF is with all this talk about shooting a production gun the way you bought it from the store? You can shoot a Glock with stock sights. But the sights are plastic. You don't want plastic sights on any real gun that you might want to use outside of competition. You are expected to replace the stock plastic crap sights.

This is part of the problem, exactly where do the now try to say stock is stock. It is possible to mill the slide for different sights (not stock) or stipple (melt the frame but not the trigger guard) (not stock) or use a gun with a built in mag well (but not apply paint inside the mag well). The stock BS left the barn a long time ago and the BOD & DNROI are not making things better. USPSA is a sport like a lot of others, if a rule enhances safety then I am all for it but I don't see a 3# TP fitting that criteria unless they are going to apply it to every Division.

[atbarr]

.....but I don't see a 3# TP fitting that criteria unless they are going to apply it to every Division.

And to EVERY shot, not just the first shot.

[Flexmoney]

I agree completely with your post. A sample is a sample. Some samples are more representative than others. And, poll questions can be worded well or poorly. I always try to look at them from those perspectives and give them according weight.

I tried to word this poll as carefully as I could, and made sure to add the option to specify how often the respondent shoots Production. It is interesting that the ratio has remained remarkably consistent as the vote numbers have increased.

I think you did a really fair job of writing the poll. And, there are quite a number of responses to this poll. (over 400)

Any way we look at it, the poll gives a 4 to 1 response against the 3lb trigger pull rule for Production division. That is 80% against the rule. Wow...quite the margin!!

[GForceLizard]

About those people that don't care and don't care enough to vote. Look at the voting for USPSA president and Area Directors as an example. Most people don't vote even when 100% of the population is given the option. So the people that don't care don't count. They have left the decision up to others because they don't care.

[1time]

I don't think "don't care" is accurate. I didn't vote for USPSA president or area directors from a lack of caring. I have been shooting for under a year and don't know enough about the board members to make an informed vote. I will say that this is my first glimpse into their opinions and will help me make an informed vote next time.

I started into USPSA and specifically production in March because I could take a $500 pistol, put $100 into it and have a pistol that I believe is as competitive as anything that can be shot in this class. It is also pretty close to my carry weapon so even though this is a game, I get an element of training in the competitions as well.I changed the sights, connector and springs. My trigger pull is probably over three pounds but I am not sure because I don't have a trigger pull gauge. I think after this rule change my pistol will not be as competitive as others in this class. The change will not make it cheaper to shoot because I will need the same work to get the pull down but another tool to make sure it is not too low. If it is I need to buy a bunch of other springs to play with it until it is legal. Then I need to go heavier to account for changes in spring tension or variation of testing methods. This sounds like too much crap to deal with and I probably wouldn't have started shooting production if these rules were in place last march.

I could always shoot limited but the $ output to have competitive gear in that class is more than I care to spend. The weapons at the top of the list cost into the thousands and have no resemblance to anything I would carry.

This rule change gives me more crap to worry about or would require me to spend 2x the money on a different pistol. Neither of which make me feel warm and fuzzy about the sport.

[grapemeister]

The following is from an article about the World Shoot and is in the most recent issue of Front Sight. This is a quote from Robert Vogel. I don’t know if this was written before or after the vote, and I don’t know if Robert Vogel knew of the rule change or a proposed rule change. I don’t think I needed any more convincing, but this article got me to thinking again about maybe one day having to switch from my beloved XD to a more expensive DA/SA gun to be or remain competitive. I sure hope the board members reconsider and vote again on this rule.

The following is only an excerpt, and not the full interview of Robert Vogel.

While he normally shoots a Glock 34 in USPSA Production, to comply with IPSC Production rules he had to switch to the Glock 17, which is shorter and has a heavier trigger. “I don’t like it because everyone else that shoots a DA/SA pistol gets to shoot pretty much the same pistol in both sports and I can’t. Yes, their first pull is over five pounds, but the other 30 rounds on the course get to be with a two-pound trigger. Because of this rule you see very few striker-fired guns in IPSC Production, especially at the top.

Front Sight, Jan/Feb 2012 page 26

[GrumpyOne]

Found this in the 2004 USPSA rulebook.....

APPENDIX F2

Trigger Pull Testing Procedure

When a minimum trigger pull is required by a Division, handguns will be tested

as follows:

1. The unloaded handgun will be prepared as if the handgun is ready to fire a

double action shot;

2. The trigger weight or scale will be attached as closely as possible to the center

of the trigger face;

3. The trigger of the handgun, with the muzzle pointed vertically skywards,

must either:

(a) Raise and hold a 2.27 kg (5lbs) weight, or

( Register not less than 2.27 kg (5lbs) on a scale;

4. One of the above tests will be conducted a maximum of 3 times;

5. If the hammer or striker does not fall on any 1 of the 3 attempts in 3(a)

above, or if the scale registers not less than 2.27 kg (5lbs) in 3( above, the

handgun has passed the test.

6. If the hammer or striker falls on all three (3) attempts in 3(a) above, or if the

scale registers less than 2.27 kg (5lbs) in 3( above, the handgun has failed

the test and Rule 6.2.5.1 will apply.