Poll on 3lb trigger limit in Production

[Racer377]

Two points to make.

1. How "production" is it for a CZ with a trigger job that has a first shot pull weight of just over 3 pounds then have up to 30+ more shots of 1.5 pounds? That gun is totally legal and the shooter has to deal with 1 shot of over three pounds. But the striker gun guys would have to deal with every shot above three pounds. Does anyone else see the flawed logic here?

2. People keeping making the point that Enos forum members make up a small amount of USPSA shooters. But it seems to me that it makes up a very significant amount of dedicated USPSA shooters. Shooters who have been around and will stick around for a long time to come. I value their opinions much higher than the people who come and go in the sport.

Man, if you know how to get the DA pull in my CZ to just over 3lbs and still work, please let me know. I could use some tips on getting a 1.5 SA too.

[Sin-ster]

I will say this.

I don't think anyone has a problem with creating a new Division with "box stock" at it's focus, provided the current form of Production still exists. Heck, call the new Division "Production" for all we care. Anyone who starts there and wants to do some tinkering can move on to the next Division.

What many supporters seem to be failing to realize is that the other "race Divisions" leave little room for 9mm guns currently popular in Production. An entire range of options are thus eliminated to shooters who want to be competitive and run those pistols when "box stock" notions are implemented. "You can shoot your G34 and not be hampered by PF, and you can tune up its trigger-- but not both at the same time."

And just to cover this before someone imagines themself a genius for making the consideration:

Yes, 3# is still light; it still requires tuning. The problem id that most of the available options, drop in or otherwise, fail to meet that minimum requirement-- and thousands of guns already fitted with them will require adjustments in order to be compliant. All over 16 ounces, in the most extreme cases. Does that pound make a difference to the new shooter with the 12# trigger-- or are the 9 additional pounds a bit more of a factor?

[RippSpeed]

I shot production with my HK USP 45 (my home defense pistol) and my HK P30LS variant 1 ( DA only with a 4lb trigger)

The first trigger pull on my HK USP made me get a P30LS DA because the first shot was 13lbs and threw my rhythm off ...

AND

actually it is ...Training, if you look @ it that way instead of a game... I started USPSA because I invited by a instructor who was my friend and ever since the begin ... I said I wanted to be a proficient and accurate shooter. Where else can you learn to move, acquire targets and engauge them and do reloads on the move @ a pressured pace ??? This is what I take in from me shooting USPSA ... All these things I cannot learn in an indoor range just punching paper ...

..and indeed, what you found is that your HK45 gives you a very bad first shot, and another gun works better for you. One would think this should make you think about your defense situations, since training is how you consider USPSA Production...

So---why again is this an argument for trigger pull weight limits? (When, out of all things, it showed you clearly that a bad first shot is a problem, and that a lower trigger weight works better?)

I'm just using my experience as an example of what other pistols DA/SA pistol have to deal with... I cannot speak for other pistols I dont have and have not shot. Using my own experience...

An the P30LS my decision wasnt solely on trigger ... 9mm vs 45acp, I wasnt reloading then... P30LS variant 1 was better because it was Double action only or LEM variant if you know your HK's...

Being new to USPSA and having choosen the P30LS was one less thing to worry about screwing up. With my USP I had to decock @ the start of the stage and with my P30LS I didnt. And when I was shooting with my USP, I was screwing up @ the show clear because instead of pulling the trigger; I was decocking... With the P30LS I didnt have a decocker...

I now have an STI Edge and run strickly in Limited but planning on purchasing a G34 and start shooting production again. I like DA only or SA only pistols now... The STI made me confident and actually taught me alot of things that made me a better shot... Still not a better shooter in USPSA just a better hole puncher...

Edited December 26, 2011 by RippSpeed

[LPatterson]

I have read through a bunch of nim rod comments so how about this one. USPSA completely DROP/CANCEL Production Division and institute a new Division called something stupid like Carry/Tactical with a set of rules so stringent as to disallow any modifications. No sight changes, no grip tape, no using ProGrip and a bunch of other dumb PC stuff like magazines must be permanently block to hold no more than 10 rounds. Sorry Canada not picking on you and your problems. Does nobody remember the heart burn when the revolver rule was changed to no more than 6 shots before a reload. Probably not as it didn't affect a majority. Maybe a requirement to be on the Board of Directors should be a class on Robert's Rules of Order (might be paraphasing as it was a long time ago when I was asked to leave high school).

[spanky]

What I think is hilarious is that there was so much backlash about discouraging people from shooting production when there were talks of increasing capacity to 15rds but kicking out/pissing off a ton of veteran shooters by raising their trigger pull is okay?

[spanky]

according to this seemingly useless poll the membership is 4:1 against versus for this new trigger pull limit.

that should say something.

[LPatterson]

according to this seemingly useless poll the membership is 4:1 against versus for this new trigger pull limit.

that should say something.

Why is this a useless poll? It in it's own right will not affect any changes but some of the Directors who voted for it are getting an ear/eye full. Would it be better on the USPSA web site probably not because I have seen too many shooters who have never bothered to open their rule books let alone read through them. What this poll does is show the Directors and new President that we are watching to see if we want them around longer.

[vluc]

Good thing this info dump was before Christmas, might have gotten more of an earful. I did when I let the MD's at our clubs know about it.

I haven't sent out the mass email to the entire section yet....

[steel1212]

I got a question. What Directors voted for this?

[Strick]

The minutes of the meeting show who voted for/against. I think the link is in the other thread.

[vluc]

I got a question. What Directors voted for this?

Against: Chuck Anderson, Gary Stevens

For: all the rest

Several now seem to feel they may have made a less than well-informed decision (and that's a good thing!)

[ihatepickles]

I got a question. What Directors voted for this?

From the minutes: http://www.uspsa.org...d-mtgs-home.php

Motion: Minimum pull in Production will be 3 pounds for the first shot effective January 1, 2013

Moved: Pres Seconded A2 Passed

Roll Call requested

YES - Pres, A2, A3, A4, A6, A7

NO - A1, A5

In attendance:

Michael Voigt, President

John Amidon, Vice President, DNROI

Dave Thomas, Executive Director

Chuck Anderson, Area 1 Director

Chris Endersby, Area 2 Director

Sherwyn Greenfield, Area 3 Director

Phil Strader, Area 4 Director

Gary Stevens, Area 5 Director

Linda Chico, Area 6 Director

Rob Boudrie, Area 7 Director

Harry Foltz, Area 8 Director

Maggie Reese, minutes recorder

Guests:

Scott Moore, SCSA Coordinator

Kyle Farris, Area 5 Candidate

Edited December 26, 2011 by ihatepickles

[spanky]

I'm firing off my e-mail now.

[justaute]

How interesting... I have now read a few postings on this thread and the BOD thread that are making the trigger-pull weight issue into a DA/SA vs striker issue. A couple of posters even admitted that DA/SA (e.g. CZ) guns will suddenly go from "inferior" to having a competitive "advantage" with BOD's latest decision, even though they do not have any meaningful experience with CZs. I have owned and shot M&P Pro, XDM, and CZ Shadow; CZ is now my competition "sword" of USPSA, which I view as purely a sporting event, which may also yield some "practical" benefits in the SD world. At the risk of sounding pedantic, here is my view regarding DA/SA vs Striker. Please note although I do have personal experience with the aforementioned guns, I'm still a newbie as I shot my first handgun in the summer of 2010 and am in my first year of USPSA. A few of the below-listed points may be grotesquely obvious, but I want to list them anyway for the sake of discussion.

1. Besides the trigger mechanism, there is a myriad of other issues that make the "sword" of our choice such a personal one. Those issues may include, weight, balance, grips, front/back strap, and shape of frame around thumb/fore-finger.

2. With CZ Shadow (DA/SA), even with very light trigger-pull, the pull is meaningfully longer than those of the striker-based guns I owned. Further, even in SA, there is a lot of pre-travel before sear-break, irrespective of how light the trigger-return spring is.

3. A few people I know who are either shooting striker-based guns (e.g. Glock G34, M&P) or are looking into production guns, still don't like the DA/SA trigger differential, notwithstanding the "light" SA a DA/SA gun may offer. In SA, a few people also don't that you must constantly keeping your trigger semi-pulled to minimize the slack-to-sear-break distance.

4. I have never heard of anyone with ~3# DA on a CZ. It doesn't mean that's not out there.

5. Many high-level DA/SA gun competitors still choose to shoot the closest/most-open target, instead of the most "efficient" and strategic target, for their first DA shot because it's comparatively more difficult to maintain trigger-control.

6. Some complain steel guns such as CZ/Sig are too heavy and slow down transition. Some complain those same guns offer a competitive advantage as they tend to better tame the recoil. And, some prefer steel guns with short-dustcover to long-dustcover because of weight/balance/recoil issues.

7. etc.

8. more etc.

So, I think we ought to be more circumspect with regard to our views of DA/SA vs striker advantages/disadvantages. There are so many dimensions to our beloved sport, we have become unmanageably fastidious about our "swords," which is really a part of our human nature. However, from the perspectives of competition and rule-enforcement, we just can't afford to accomodate everything under the sun. Do we want a "consistent" trigger-pull from a striker gun (my XDM was very accurate)? Do we prefer the long DA and the short SA (with its long pre-travel)? Who knows?

My two pesos of view is our Production division is just fine as it is -- ok, I capitulate, mostly fine as it is.

p.s. I have already sent an e-mail to my AD and the president-elect.

Edited December 26, 2011 by justaute

[steel1212]

So is there a link for these people's email addresses we can post here. Sorry I would look it up but I'm running around crazy right now at work.

[ihatepickles]

So is there a link for these people's email addresses we can post here. Sorry I would look it up but I'm running around crazy right now at work.

president@uspsa.org

area1@uspsa.org

area2@uspsa.org

area3@uspsa.org

area4@uspsa.org

area5@uspsa.org

area6@uspsa.org

area7@uspsa.org

area8@uspsa.org

[ChuckS]

So is there a link for these people's email addresses we can post here. Sorry I would look it up but I'm running around crazy right now at work.

uh, yeah: Contact Us Link

[ihatepickles]

Also, the contact page at USPSA has phone numbers as well:

http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-contact-us.php

[steel1212]

So is there a link for these people's email addresses we can post here. Sorry I would look it up but I'm running around crazy right now at work.

uh, yeah: Contact Us Link

ummm ok I'll send that out to my Section and have them voice their opinion.

[BritinUSA]

ummm ok I'll send that out to my Section and have them voice their opinion.

Maybe point them towards this poll as well, so we can have some raw numbers to give to the BOD

[Caspian_45]

This rule is nonsense. I disagree with it because this rule will only affect those shooting non-DA/SA production guns. 3lbs for every trigger pull would make more sense if a trigger weight limit is to be set.

No need to grip to MY Area director.... he voted correctly. Thanks Gary.

[Gary Stevens]

This rule is nonsense. I disagree with it because this rule will only affect those shooting non-DA/SA production guns. 3lbs for every trigger pull would make more sense if a trigger weight limit is to be set.

No need to grip to MY Area director.... he voted correctly. Thanks Gary.

You taught me well

[Racer377]

The overwhelming consensus seems to be against trigger pull requirements. If that's the case, why not allow SA guns in PRD? If a 2lb trigger on a Glock is OK, why not allow 1911s/CZs/USP/P30 et al, to start cocked and locked? Or cocked and unlocked, for that matter?

Edited December 26, 2011 by Racer377

[Gary Stevens]

The overwhelming consensus seems to be against trigger pull requirements. If that's the case, why not allow SA guns in PRD? If a 2lb trigger on a Glock is OK, why not allow 1911s/CZs/USP/P30 et al, to start cocked and locked? Or cocked and unlocked, for that matter?

My suggestion would be to fight one battle at a time.

[Steve J]

The overwhelming consensus seems to be against trigger pull requirements. If that's the case, why not allow SA guns in PRD? If a 2lb trigger on a Glock is OK, why not allow 1911s/CZs/USP/P30 et al, to start cocked and locked? Or cocked and unlocked, for that matter?

It is unsafe to holster a single action gun without the sear block safety (thumb safety) engaged. Holstering cocked and unlocked is unsafe gun handling and grounds for an immediate DQ.

10.5.11 Holstering a loaded handgun, in any of the following conditions:

10.5.11.1 A single action self-loading pistol with the safety not applied.

10.5.11.2 A double action or selective action pistol with the hammer cocked and the safety not applied.

10.5.11.3 A revolver with the hammer cocked.