Poll on 3lb trigger limit in Production

[BritinUSA]

Please read this thread about the proposed change to production division scheduled to go into effect in January 2013 (not 2012)

Please post any comments to the main thread mention above, this topic is just for poll results.

Definition of FREQUENTLY is more than once per month

Definition of LESS FREQUENTLY is several times per year but less than once per month

Definition of DO NOT SHOOT PRODUCTION is self-explanatory

Edited December 24, 2011 by BritinUSA

[Sarge]

I guess I'm first in. I voted to nix the proposal. I made B in Production with a Glock 34 with extensive trigger work. I have since sold the gun but before selling it I returned it to bone stock and went to the range with it. There is no way anybody can convince me that the lighter trigger was not a huge factor in my success with the gun. To be honest I don't know if the trigger was 3 lbs or not but more than once a Chrono guy was a bit surprised when the gun went off. I would have constantly been worrying about it since it would most likely never weigh out the same from match to match.

This is a game, a competition, not a self defense course we are shooting!

[Ryan626]

I've been shooting production for a year now and voted that I do not agree with the proposal. The reasoning behind it is there are other divisions for that already implemented in USPSA. I like shooting production because I always felt that this division does not put an emphasis on the gun or equipment. I feel like I can buy any gun off the shelf and be able to go straight to a match and shoot per say. I don't have the thought in the back of my mind if I lost because his gun was better than mine. I know it's the indian and not the arrow but as a newbie shooter, I see all this highly modified STI in limited division, it makes me wonder if my bone stock G35 would have produced the same results, if not better.

Just my 2 cents.

Ryan

[mhop]

this tread is useless i would say only 1% of the membership comes to this site

[Tyshoots]

I do not agree with the rule change. I have a CZ SP-01 that I spent good money on have Angus do trigger job on. It has a 2 lbs. single action, and a 5 lbs. double action.Do I need that light of a pull? No, but I will not spend more money to convert it back. So if the rule goes through I will not shoot production any more.

[ErichF]

this tread is useless i would say only 1% of the membership comes to this site

Maybe, but I bet those here on this site were the first and only in the membership to hear about this...and that's not a good thing.

[ChuckS]

I do not agree with the rule change. I have a CZ SP-01 that I spent good money on have Angus do trigger job on. It has a 2 lbs. single action, and a 5 lbs. double action.Do I need that light of a pull? No, but I will not spend more money to convert it back. So if the rule goes through I will not shoot production any more.

Not to distract from BritinUSA's poll but the trigger pull weight is for the first shot. Yours is 5.

[ErichF]

I do not agree with the rule change. I have a CZ SP-01 that I spent good money on have Angus do trigger job on. It has a 2 lbs. single action, and a 5 lbs. double action.Do I need that light of a pull? No, but I will not spend more money to convert it back. So if the rule goes through I will not shoot production any more.

Actually, the new rule only applies to the FIRST trigger pull (DA). So, that brings up one of the issues of the discussion...why JUST the first pull? If it's such an issue, why not EVERY pull?

[38SuperDub]

this tread is useless i would say only 1% of the membership comes to this site

Sorta like when the news stations poll a portion of the population. The membership already proved they won't vote so why not just ask those that care to voice their opinion???

[steel1212]

If it passes it will make production a equipment race. You'll have more guns like CZs than glocks and MP then. So what does it accomplish nothing.

[Wideload]

Please ... no more hoops for Production shooters to jump through...

[vluc]

I guess I'm first in. I voted to nix the proposal. I made B in Production with a Glock 34 with extensive trigger work. I have since sold the gun but before selling it I returned it to bone stock and went to the range with it. There is no way anybody can convince me that the lighter trigger was not a huge factor in my success with the gun.

This is a game, a competition, not a self defense course we are shooting!

My experience echoes Sarge. While I have since returned to a less modified trigger, albeit still lighter than stock, it made it easier for me to learn the game and play well, and mine was just with polishing and tweaking.

Edited December 24, 2011 by vluc

[GrumpyOne]

I do not agree with the proposal. I shoot a CZ, and so it won't affect me per se, but why change what's working. Furthermore, why the restriction on magnetic pouches? As long as its behind the hip, it should be legal.

[Ricg]

If it passes it will make production a equipment race. You'll have more guns like CZs than glocks and MP then. So what does it accomplish nothing.

This is exactly my concern.

Ric

[SDM]

If it passes it will make production a equipment race. You'll have more guns like CZs than glocks and MP then. So what does it accomplish nothing.

This is exactly my concern.

Ric

From what I read in that other thread it did pass. It goes into effect in 2013.

Edited December 24, 2011 by SDM

[Racer377]

Doesn't bother me, I shoot a CZ!

I think it'll have the opposite effect, insofar as the equipment race is concerned. As is, people spend a fair amount on wiz-bang super trigger jobs and components for their plastic guns. The 3lb requirement will limit that to some small extent.

I doubt anyone will go running out to buy a CZ just because of the first pull rule. It wouldn't make much sense to give up a consistent 3.5lbs for a 7+lbs first and gain maybe .5-.75lbs on SA pull. My lightly polished up Shadow isn't under 3lb SA, so really they'd gain nothing at all unless they spent the dough on someone like eerw, Mink or the Custom shop to tune it under that weight.

If it was 5lbs like IPSC, then that would make sense, but 3lb is pretty light. I can't see people getting into an equipment race to trade a DA first shot and significantly more cost for the gun in exchange for a whopping 0.5lb of trigger pull.

I'll keep shooting my CZ either way, and most of the guys I know on the plastic side will keep shooting their XDm/Glock/M&Ps if/when the rule takes effect.

[LPatterson]

For me it was not so much that it was done as much as the way it was done. It was not an agenda item so it was not posted in advance for the membership to comment upon. Also it provides our enemies with more ammunition to further regulate us. I see it now, press release, USPSA has decided that it's so called Production guns need to be at least 3# for the first pull. So in the interest of safety shouldn't all their guns have at least a 3# first pull. The general public doesn't know about the DA/SA requirement of the Division so maybe the BOD is acting in the interest of safety so that those new shooters don't shoot themselves.

If the BoD is trying to return Production to a stock Division it is way too late. It would be better to totally eliminate Production Division and start over the way they want it to be.

[mlmiller1]

For me it was not so much that it was done as much as the way it was done. It was not an agenda item so it was not posted in advance for the membership to comment upon.

If the BoD is trying to return Production to a stock Division it is way too late. It would be better to totally eliminate Production Division and start over the way they want it to be.

If they want a stock division, why don't they start one? No changes, sights or otherwise or whatever, I think a stock division is a bad idea but if they think someone new would show up to shoot that wouldn't otherwise, well go ahead.

From listening to the former pres speak at a uspsa meeting held in Oklahoma one year at nat'ls, he wanted production div to be a limited time div. You could only shoot it for a couple of years or something like that, then you had to move into other divisions.

My gun doesn't even have a light trigger but not having to worry if a spring gets worn or something & having more stress at a major match is just not necessary. Leave the production division rules alone.

MLM

[Flexmoney]

this tread is useless i would say only 1% of the membership comes to this site

Ah...but with 60% more members than USPSA has...think of the potential members. (J/K...tongue in cheek)

[sdm74]

For me it was not so much that it was done as much as the way it was done. It was not an agenda item so it was not posted in advance for the membership to comment upon.

If the BoD is trying to return Production to a stock Division it is way too late. It would be better to totally eliminate Production Division and start over the way they want it to be.

..... From listening to the former pres speak at a uspsa meeting held in Oklahoma one year at nat'ls, he wanted production div to be a limited time div. You could only shoot it for a couple of years or something like that, then you had to move into other divisions.

MLM

With that type of thinking how would anyone ever be a gm in production?

Maybe for people with money to blow, it is a stepping stone division, but I don't ever see myself shooting any other division.

[GrumpyOne]

I own single stacks, open guns, revo's, and production guns. I could shoot just about any division I wanted to. I choose to shoot production because it is the division that is the most competitive, with all the current rules in place. It places more emphasis on the basics of shooting rather than the equipment. I might in the future, decide to shoot other divisions, but I forsee production as my home, and you always go back home.

[CZinSC]

this tread is useless i would say only 1% of the membership comes to this site

Ah...but with 60% more members than USPSA has...think of the potential members. (J/K...tongue in cheek)

Sorry for the thread drift, and I'm not making fun of either of your positions, but after seeing this response...I just had to throw this link out there....( the beers I drank tonight were also the contributing factor )

[tavman]

Sounds like i'm going to need to ditch my M&P and spend more cash on a CZ so I can compete in a production!!!! "Common sense is the least common of all senses" what is the BOD thinking????

[Sin-ster]

The only legitimate reason to implement such a rule would be in the case that one particular pistol was dominating the Division by way of its trigger pull. Based on the data I've seen on Majors that I haven't attended and my observations at the club level, this is FAR from the case.

However, this rule basically pushes us in that direction. Since the stipulation for "first trigger pull" exists, those tuned CZ triggers that are "just" over 3 for the first pull will become the staple for those B-to-M class shooters who want to have an equipment edge. It completely and utterly slants the field in favor of guns configured in that manner, over the consistent pull of the striker fired guns that added some diversity to the field.

A caveat here-- I spent a lot of time and money to find an M&P 9 Pro (when they were essentially non-existent) and send it to Dan for trigger work. I could care less about losing the extra 1/2lb of pull-- if it were as simple as swapping out a few springs. And when I look at it in that light, I begin to realize that the Glock I used to shoot would be in the same boat-- only I can perform the necessary alterations to make it comply with this new rule, while I need someone as skilled as Dan to do the same to my M&P. Thanks for the extra PITA and cost.

And to what end? Why is this rule necessary-- because IPSC has it in place (at a weight that actually makes sense)? To eliminate the "equipment race" for some shooters? I'm not a superstar by any stretch of the imagination, but I feel comfortable making this statement. Whatever "leveling of the playing field" the BoD deems necessary will have no effect at all on the performance and Classification of the Production Division shooters, nor will it attract new people to the sport. The more skilled the shooter, the LESS trigger weight will effect their performance. In essence, the rule will actually hamper those it's meant to help-- the C and D and new Unclassified shooters. Only those who are serious about the sport will spend the time and money to get their trigger pull to the now-outlawed weights, and only those shooters will invest the time and money to continue improving-- regardless of the weight of the trigger pull. Now they have to re-invest to comply with the new rule.

So what has been accomplished? Well, a lot of people are essentially condemned to owning a useless pistol-- or exerting a lot of effort to first make it comply with the new rule, and then re-learn how it handles. And a lot of the drop-in combination kits will take quite a bit of work to comply-- costing several of the companies that have been so good to we shooters to invest a lot of money figuring out new options, or lose a lot of money as their products become useless. I can hand tune a Glock connector to work in unison with a reduced power striker and extra power trigger spring to meet the requirements; I can clip a factory striker to the same end. How many pre-tuned Vanek kits does this rule render useless-- or how many people will be satisfied with spending that cash and having to use a factory striker spring, leaving them ~1.5 pounds heavier than required while other shooters are just a couple of ounces within the rules? (Talk about an equipment race...) How many people will run 3.5lb triggers to be safe, and then find their worn springs and well-mated parts have left them .5 ounces below the minimum weight-- at a Major, sending them to Open Division? (Time for another new rule, where we at least end up in Limited?) How many will "luck out" with one of the drop in kits currently available puts them a few ounces over 3 pounds, and how many will be screwed by one that's an ounce too light? Glad to know that in addition to everything else, I'll have to invest in a trigger pull gauge on top of my chrony-- just to feel comfortable, even with a large cushion.

I think the poll speaks mostly for itself. Whether someone shoots Production frequently (or exclusively), infrequently, or not at all-- the majority disagree with the rule. As with all things, I'm willing to be at least mildly open minded. So if the BoD (or anyone for that matter) can give me a reason why this rule is necessary or will improve the sport, I'm willing to listen. If I can't pick it apart logically, I'm willing to accept it. Until then... "WTB-- CZ SP-01 Shadow."

As a semi-related aside-- is the outgoing or incoming President the one involved in this ruling? I've got fairly choice words for either scenario, FYI.

[twodownzero]

Make it 5 pounds, but either way, I support it. There's no difference between single stack minor and production if there's no trigger limit for production.

There should have been a minimum trigger weight for production years ago.