Poll on 3lb trigger limit in Production

[Sin-ster]

If you want to restrict "tinkering" in Production, you are essentially excluding anyone who comes to the sport with a 9mm duty/SD/.mil firearm with a striker fired action from improving the gun they have. "Run what you brung" goes out of the window at that point, since improving your "game gun" then amounts to first buying something new to be fully competitive in a new Division that allows tinkering. And face it-- tinkering stems from that desire, to find an edge or at least not be way behind your competition. Shooting minor in a Major-PF Division is far from being on equal footing.

I see more new shooters who are already unable to compete in Production (thanks to mods they've made to their pistols LONG before coming to a match) infinitely more often than I hear them talk about trigger pull weights. As in-- I've seen a lot of guys stuck in Limited with a G17 and aftermarket mag release, but NEVER heard a word about them feeling undergunned in comparison to the tuned triggers of their competition.

I still don't understand the reasoning behind the rule.

To have a "box stock" Division? Who makes pistols with 3# triggers out of the box?

To attract new shooters to the Division? See the discussions about the restrictions that already exclude them.

To allow bone stock guns to be able to win? See Sevigny.

To end an arms race? See tuned CZs.

To level the playing field, especially for new shooters? See hand loading and spring tuning for super flat shooting guns, over factory 115 (making 145 PF out of a G17) and over sprung guns out of the box. Talk about an edge...

To make money less of an issue to be competitive? See the thousands I spend a year on ammo alone, not to mention gas, match fees, training classes, etc. Plus rigs, mags, a press...

To encourage more competive and experienced USPSA shooters to get into other Divisions? I like shooting minor, with 10 in the mags, gaming stages for an edge and HAVING to execute if I go for the gamble. It's challenging. Apparently, Mink, Sevigny, etc agree with me.

To return to the "spirit" of what Production was meant to be? About 11 years too late, romantically (and erroneously) defined, not what the Majority of the members (or potential members) seem to want, and strangely similar to a rule from the "other game" for which USPSA was created to be an alternative.

Or... am I missing something?

[ihatepickles]

Or... am I missing something?

I think your post does a pretty good job of pointing out the absurdity of this trigger pull rule in context of the allowable Production modifications.

The more I read these two active threads, the more I am becoming polarized. I see two paths Production can take, everything between these two ideas will not resolve the core issues. I believe the core issue that underlies all of the Production arguments, is the lack of rules stability. Production, being a restricted division, needs tighter definitions. The perpetual rule tweaks while failing to address the ridiculous juxtapositions of the rules raises peoples blood pressure.

1. The status quo. The purpose being to capitalize on our 11 years of progress through stability. We maintain the current ruleset indefinitely. While understanding that while they are flawed, we accept it and enjoy it for what it is. Shooters will know what they're buying into.

2. A complete rewrite of the Production rules. The purpose being to hit the reset button and shape the rules around a mission statement that defines Production. It would be very difficult and require strong vision to do this. Once done, the rules should remain stable for a set period of several years. New rules will be needed, but shooters can rely on a set of rules that will be stable for many years without disruption. Shooters will know what they're buying into.

I feel the 3 lbs trigger rule is an awful idea. My key issue is the comical nature of trying to drop it into the muddled and vague rules we're already competing under. Clean up the whole division or leave it alone. As it stands now, it works very well even with it's flaws. I do see a great opportunity to get rid of the flaws, but I'm not convinced that it can be done without fatally fracturing the division.

[RippSpeed]

I voted that I dont shoot production but agree to it because I use to shoot production and will be getting back to shooting production...

I shot production with my HK USP 45 (my home defense pistol) and my HK P30LS variant 1 ( DA only with a 4lb trigger)

The first trigger pull on my HK USP made me get a P30LS DA because the first shot was 13lbs and threw my rhythm off ... there isnt any aftermarket triggers for HK's other than the factory Match trigger kit which still a 7lb trigger pull and a 4.5lb single action...

The 3lb trigger ruling only affects the pistols with extensive aftermarket support. This levels the playing field in the gear department. If the people who are upset about the 3lb rule, say its not the trigger that made them good ... Then what are we arguing about ???

If its truely "The Indian not the Arrow" analogy ... Then the GM / M / A / B class Indian can adapt to any pistol he has in his hand...

I still think that a if your finger only travels 2.5" of travel to break 10shots @ sub 3lbs vs an HK's 5" to 6" of travel to break 10shots @ 4.5lbs is an advantage...

This is my arguement, not every pistol on the approve rost has aftermarket triggers that makes movement down to an 1/8th of inch of trigger pull and another 1/8th of inch to reset...

The 3lb rulling will level the playing field in the gear department and if your more skilled than me ( which most likely you are) then thats what differs you from me... Its your skill !!! then adapt

[RippSpeed]

I do not agree with the rule change. I have a CZ SP-01 that I spent good money on have Angus do trigger job on. It has a 2 lbs. single action, and a 5 lbs. double action.Do I need that light of a pull? No, but I will not spend more money to convert it back. So if the rule goes through I will not shoot production any more.

Tyshoots;

you dont have to change anything... its 3lbs on the first shot... You stated you have a 5lb DA trigger pull... Well, arent you suppose to have the hammer down before the begining a stage in Production ???

I had to decock my HK USP at every start of the stage...

[Neomet]

The more I think of this the more I think it is a very poor idea. Even if there is some theoretical reason to doing this I simply can not believe that it will outweigh the issues it will cause the vast majority of existing Production shooters and even a fair number of folks who are just considering coming into the sport who currently sport a sub 3lb trigger. I am not convinced of any particular benefit and the cost to current competitors would be great. I think the only folks that would benefit would be the smiths who would not only have new folks sending in guns for 3lb triggers but all current competitors sending their sub 3 guns back in for a legal trigger job. And I do not see the smiths advocating for this change.

[steel1212]

For those that agree with the proposal think of it like this. My CZ has a 4# DA first shot. After that I'm 1.5-2# so I say bring it I'm good either way but I still don't agree with it. The ones I'm seeing that are for it have the same or similar type guns in that it won't affect them because their first shot is +3 pounds or they are running a stock gun. Production division has ran fine like this for years why all of sudden the want to change? If you have your "HD" gun and it doesn't have any aftermarket support, either live with it or get another gun. This is a game, not your HD training.

[RippSpeed]

For those that agree with the proposal think of it like this. My CZ has a 4# DA first shot. After that I'm 1.5-2# so I say bring it I'm good either way but I still don't agree with it. The ones I'm seeing that are for it have the same or similar type guns in that it won't affect them because their first shot is +3 pounds or they are running a stock gun. Production division has ran fine like this for years why all of sudden the want to change? If you have your "HD" gun and it doesn't have any aftermarket support, either live with it or get another gun. This is a game, not your HD training.

actually it is ...Training, if you look @ it that way instead of a game... I started USPSA because I invited by a instructor who was my friend and ever since the begin ... I said I wanted to be a proficient and accurate shooter. Where else can you learn to move, acquire targets and engauge them and do reloads on the move @ a pressured pace ??? This is what I take in from me shooting USPSA ... All these things I cannot learn in an indoor range just punching paper ...

[smokshwn]

I do not agree with the rule change. I have a CZ SP-01 that I spent good money on have Angus do trigger job on. It has a 2 lbs. single action, and a 5 lbs. double action.Do I need that light of a pull? No, but I will not spend more money to convert it back. So if the rule goes through I will not shoot production any more.

Tyshoots;

you dont have to change anything... its 3lbs on the first shot... You stated you have a 5lb DA trigger pull... Well, arent you suppose to have the hammer down before the begining a stage in Production ???

I had to decock my HK USP at every start of the stage...

That all depends....what about an unloaded start stage. Now your first shot is at 2lbs. One could argue that a CZ/Sig/Beretta/ etc that has a 2lb single action pull is illegal unless both pulls are over 3# as both pulls may be used for the first shot.

[GrumpyOne]

For those that agree with the proposal think of it like this. My CZ has a 4# DA first shot. After that I'm 1.5-2# so I say bring it I'm good either way but I still don't agree with it. The ones I'm seeing that are for it have the same or similar type guns in that it won't affect them because their first shot is +3 pounds or they are running a stock gun. Production division has ran fine like this for years why all of sudden the want to change? If you have your "HD" gun and it doesn't have any aftermarket support, either live with it or get another gun. This is a game, not your HD training.

Totally agree, and I shoot an Angus tuned Shadow as well.

[spanky]

I'm one of the sometimes production shooter that voted for the 3 lbs limit, I shoot it sometime just to remind my self how badly I suck at it.

I shoot a fairly stock S&W 5906 in production

I usually shoot open and my racegun has a sub 3 lbs trigger pull & if I holstered it with the safety off, I would be DQed

The glock, ,Xd, M&p guys will say my safeties on the trigger and it's engaged, my response is, if I don't touch the trigger on my racegun, it won't go off ether

But it's a safe action, DA only, etc,well there maybe a little more take up than a traditional SA gun, but their still holstering a gun with a sub 2-3 lbs trigger pull, with no additional safeties to prevent it from firing if you get on the trigger early

Ew

My point is from a safety stand point how can we say it's ok for production gun with a sub 2 or 3 lbs trigger pull, to just holster up, but in the same rule book, a if 1911 or browning high power shooter with a 5-8 lbs trigger pull holstered it with the safety off, it's a DQ

I've read the posts that state what if my trigger pull lighten do to wear, old spring, etc

Well the power factor floor for production is 125, how many of you load your ammo to 125, and risk going to a match not making power factor

I know this is not the popular opinion, but it mine

How many Ads do you know of that fit this scenario that would be fixed by a trigger weight limit? If your finger on the trigger when you holster, it's going bang at 3.5 just as easy as 2.9.

[DocMedic]

The more I think about it the more I realize this might have a negative impact to sponsors. The reason these "light" triggers exist is because we ask for them, those companies listen to us and make it happen. I kind of feel that they're getting the Middle finger on this deal.

[cas]

Reasons, likes and dislikes aside, I can't get over how many people have a problem with 3lbs. How light's the pull on your little plastic triggers now?

[grapemeister]

I'm definitely on the fence. I can see the reasoning behind the rule change, but I can't say that I agree or disagree. I'm sure the powers that be are wanting to keep the guns production, and are trying to pull back on the rains a bit to keep the production guns from becoming race guns like in the limited, and open divisions.

My XD still has the stock trigger pull of about 6lbs. I'm not convinced a lighter trigger pull will help me advance from B class to an A class level of shooting, so in my mind, and considering my tight shooting budget, I can't really justify the cost of the change. Maybe I'm wrong, and I'm hamstringing myself, so to speak.

I suppose I shouldn't say anything at all, if I've never tried a lighter trigger pull. I do feel for you guys with light triggers, and to a certain extent I sympathize with the arguments presented.

Chris

[DocMedic]

Reasons, likes and dislikes aside, I can't get over how many people have a problem with 3lbs. How light's the pull on your little plastic triggers now?

Two different M&P Pro's one with a 2.2 lbs trigger, the other 2.5 lbs. all safeties work. to put it in comparison my Carry STI Rogue has a 2.5 lbs trigger.

Edited December 26, 2011 by DocMedic

[rishii]

I'm one of the sometimes production shooter that voted for the 3 lbs limit, I shoot it sometime just to remind my self how badly I suck at it.

I shoot a fairly stock S&W 5906 in production

I usually shoot open and my racegun has a sub 3 lbs trigger pull & if I holstered it with the safety off, I would be DQed

The glock, ,Xd, M&p guys will say my safeties on the trigger and it's engaged, my response is, if I don't touch the trigger on my racegun, it won't go off ether

But it's a safe action, DA only, etc,well there maybe a little more take up than a traditional SA gun, but their still holstering a gun with a sub 2-3 lbs trigger pull, with no additional safeties to prevent it from firing if you get on the trigger early

My point is from a safety stand point how can we say it's ok for production gun with a sub 2 or 3 lbs trigger pull, to just holster up, but in the same rule book, a if 1911 or browning high power shooter with a 5-8 lbs trigger pull holstered it with the safety off, it's a DQ

I've read the posts that state what if my trigger pull lighten do to wear, old spring, etc

Well the power factor floor for production is 125, how many of you load your ammo to 125, and risk going to a match not making power factor

I know this is not the popular opinion, but it mine

So by that reasoning should the same restriction apply to the thousands of competitors using Glock, XD and M&P in Lim/Lim10 and Open?

I thought about that also, but there is one big differance

In open, if I AD coming out of the holster, in the holster, or holstering, it's a DQ, I'm going home mainly to change my underwear

In production, same events, I'm going to the hospital

In open I can adjust my holster so my muzzle points a foot or so in front of my right foot

In production, I don't have that ability, most legal holsters have the end in contact with or pointing at some part of your leg, hip or butt

AD in a production rig you'll have to be very lucky not to end up bleeding

[jar]

Reasons, likes and dislikes aside, I can't get over how many people have a problem with 3lbs. How light's the pull on your little plastic triggers now?

I don't know exactly what my pull weight is. Now I'll have to. I'm pretty sure it's over 3lbs, but how does making me buy a trigger gauge improve production?

[SDM]

For those that agree with the proposal think of it like this. My CZ has a 4# DA first shot. After that I'm 1.5-2# so I say bring it I'm good either way but I still don't agree with it. The ones I'm seeing that are for it have the same or similar type guns in that it won't affect them because their first shot is +3 pounds or they are running a stock gun. Production division has ran fine like this for years why all of sudden the want to change? If you have your "HD" gun and it doesn't have any aftermarket support, either live with it or get another gun. This is a game, not your HD training.

actually it is ...Training, if you look @ it that way instead of a game... I started USPSA because I invited by a instructor who was my friend and ever since the begin ... I said I wanted to be a proficient and accurate shooter. Where else can you learn to move, acquire targets and engauge them and do reloads on the move @ a pressured pace ??? This is what I take in from me shooting USPSA ... All these things I cannot learn in an indoor range just punching paper ...

If you look at it as training and want to gain proficiency with your particular gun, why does it matter how heavy other triggers are?

[Whitefish]

Perhaps I'm just missing it, but there is one very important point that is not being talked about with this proposed change and the back door left open to tinker more in the future. What about all those individuals who have built thriving businesses making aftermarket (improved) parts, triggers, and trigger jobs to improve the trigger pull and overall gun function? Those companies and individuals are a big part of of the sponsors who donate to prize tables and help sponsor stages and matches. A lot of them are vendors on this forum. Some are not, but that does not lessen their contribution to the sport. We depend on them, and now out BOD seems inclined to leave them out in the cold with recent moves.

I am one of those long time shooters who has already invested a lot of $$ in parts and labor to "improve" my production guns. This proposal also leaves me out in the cold, not for the first time - witness the aborted move to ban DOH holsters from production a few years ago and the ruling by NROI (well after the fact) to state that all those early SP-01's with custom trigger jobs done without firing pin blocks are illegal for production. That one ruling made a just delivered gun costing many $$ illegal for production without sending it back to undo the trigger job and work. Ask me how much that one cost me. On second thought, don't. Now, we have CZ Shadows without firing pin blocks straight from the factory and I don't hear anyone saying they are inherently unsafe or illegal. That just adds to the point about a slew of purpose built guns coming out that is being made here. It is about time that the BOD started taking care that long time shooters don't leave the sport over BS like this and worrying less about attracting newbies who may or may not stick around. What about us in the conversation?

[Thomas H]

I shot production with my HK USP 45 (my home defense pistol) and my HK P30LS variant 1 ( DA only with a 4lb trigger)

The first trigger pull on my HK USP made me get a P30LS DA because the first shot was 13lbs and threw my rhythm off ...

AND

actually it is ...Training, if you look @ it that way instead of a game... I started USPSA because I invited by a instructor who was my friend and ever since the begin ... I said I wanted to be a proficient and accurate shooter. Where else can you learn to move, acquire targets and engauge them and do reloads on the move @ a pressured pace ??? This is what I take in from me shooting USPSA ... All these things I cannot learn in an indoor range just punching paper ...

..and indeed, what you found is that your HK45 gives you a very bad first shot, and another gun works better for you. One would think this should make you think about your defense situations, since training is how you consider USPSA Production...

So---why again is this an argument for trigger pull weight limits? (When, out of all things, it showed you clearly that a bad first shot is a problem, and that a lower trigger weight works better?)

[Thomas H]

I thought about that also, but there is one big differance

In open, if I AD coming out of the holster, in the holster, or holstering, it's a DQ, I'm going home mainly to change my underwear

In production, same events, I'm going to the hospital

In open I can adjust my holster so my muzzle points a foot or so in front of my right foot

In production, I don't have that ability, most legal holsters have the end in contact with or pointing at some part of your leg, hip or butt

AD in a production rig you'll have to be very lucky not to end up bleeding

Hm. I've seen a couple of Open holsters here and there, and from my experience, I don't think that's true. I agree that it is possible to set an Open holster so that it doesn't point at your leg/foot/whatever. However, I would disagree that 1) most people do so, and 2) during their draw, that initial setting makes them sweep themselves less than anyone from Production does during the part when the trigger is now accessible. Most Open holsters I've seen are set farther forward, and thus, angled in.

[waxman]

I voted there should be a trigger pull limit. I agree with what some have said about this division being made for out of the box guns. I have shot quite a few differnt production guns, and the ones that have been tweaked, are not even in the same ball park as a out of the box gun. Have you ever shot a canyon creek xd?? Or a M&P all apexed, or "burrwelled" out? these things are about as sweet as a nice limited gun. How can you say it has not become an equipment race? When the new XDM 5.25 came out, I was pretty impressed with the price, now check the price on one from a custom shop with all the bells and whistles. These things are almost in limited gun price ranges. Our local club has the distinction of having alot of new shooter weekly, giving the sport a try, most with off the shelf production legal guns.These guys have to be wondering what they are doing wrong when guys with a 2# trigger are treading needles, while they slowly pull the 12 lb stock trigger on their plastic gun of choice. Obviously training can overcome alot of this, we all know that. I just feel that there are 5 other divisons for those who want "race", or "improved" gun. Why cant production be just what it says? a gun just like anyone else can buy off the shelf.

[Sin-ster]

I couldn't tell you what the pull is on my Glock or M&P, but they are sub-3 for sure. The weight however is not the issue.

It's the modifications and safety valves and worrying over the weight that bother me, as well as the useless collection of parts I'll end up with. On the Glock, with a set of approved test weights of my own, I could figure it out given enough time. On the M&P, back to Dan it must go. Shipping alone puts me out a pretty penny.

And for what reason? Seriously-- before we get a clear sense of the causes, I highly doubt anyone's mind will be changed.

In the nerd-o world of online gaming, we call this type of thing "nerfing". Sometimes it's truly necessary to maintain balance/fairness. Other times, it happens to address problems that don't exist-- either imagined by the governing authorities, or conceived by those looking for an excuse/crutch for their own performance. In our case, it seems to be a result of imaginary problems-- but I caution anyone against taking the opinions of the latter group as justification to push the rule through. Many games have broken their own backs in this regard. And bear in mind-- these are digital changes, resulting in (at most) lost time on the part of the players, and compensation for the PITA is common.

We're talking cold, hard cash lost here-- and time spent without a game gun as everyone rushes to make the necessary changes.

If USPSA is training for you, rock on. But trigger pull weights of your competition shouldn't matter-- you don't have competition, you're training! Furthermore, we ARE a game-orientated organization. There are other groups out there with more of a "realistic" focus-- they too welcome new members.

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: I voted against the new rule change since my Glock has a 2lb trigger. After thinking about it why not just make the ruling the same as IPSC. That way everyone will be on the same playing field? Also why we are at it why not limit all divisions to 10 rounds and use the international targets I still think it is a load of crap to put a trigger pull limit on any division. If you want to use a 6lb trigger good for you if you want a 2lb trigger good for you at least you get to decide Next how about using factory ammo for Production so you don't get an advantage. I won't be shooting Production any time soon and will use my Glock in IDPA where I can make some changes. Thanks, Eric

[Glshooter]

Two points to make.

1. How "production" is it for a CZ with a trigger job that has a first shot pull weight of just over 3 pounds then have up to 30+ more shots of 1.5 pounds? That gun is totally legal and the shooter has to deal with 1 shot of over three pounds. But the striker gun guys would have to deal with every shot above three pounds. Does anyone else see the flawed logic here?

2. People keeping making the point that Enos forum members make up a small amount of USPSA shooters. But it seems to me that it makes up a very significant amount of dedicated USPSA shooters. Shooters who have been around and will stick around for a long time to come. I value their opinions much higher than the people who come and go in the sport.

[RippSpeed]

For those that agree with the proposal think of it like this. My CZ has a 4# DA first shot. After that I'm 1.5-2# so I say bring it I'm good either way but I still don't agree with it. The ones I'm seeing that are for it have the same or similar type guns in that it won't affect them because their first shot is +3 pounds or they are running a stock gun. Production division has ran fine like this for years why all of sudden the want to change? If you have your "HD" gun and it doesn't have any aftermarket support, either live with it or get another gun. This is a game, not your HD training.

actually it is ...Training, if you look @ it that way instead of a game... I started USPSA because I invited by a instructor who was my friend and ever since the begin ... I said I wanted to be a proficient and accurate shooter. Where else can you learn to move, acquire targets and engauge them and do reloads on the move @ a pressured pace ??? This is what I take in from me shooting USPSA ... All these things I cannot learn in an indoor range just punching paper ...

If you look at it as training and want to gain proficiency with your particular gun, why does it matter how heavy other triggers are?

It doesnt matter ... I said I agreed to the rulling and I agree that it would level the playing field in the gear department for the people that take USPSA as a game...