Getting Good - How Long Did It Take

[Rapt]

I'm no shooting guru but lots of live fire practice without learning the right way and practicing the right skills will just teach BAD habits.

I see it all the time with newish shooters who weren't taught good skills to begin with.

Its much harder to change bad habits than to learn good ones to begin with.

[spook]

I think as soon as you have decided you want to be a very good shooter, you will be from that point on. It's more of a decision followed by a way of training than a product that comes after thousands of rounds of training.

[Jake Di Vita]

Totally agree with what spook said.

[j1b]

You just have to know your own learning pace. L2S shot 60K in one year. I doubt I ever shot more than 25K in a year. I think both of us have achieved a degree of success that I would call good.

I did little things like make certain I never took more than 300 rounds to the range so that when I was physically done (out of ammo) I wasn't mentally done. That led to going home and dry firing.

I watched video and taped a lot of my shooting to learn. I taped myself dry firing as well - that was cool because it provided instantaneous feedback I could act upon immediately and try to improve.

But all of us are still trying to get better. I think I've seen some success at shooting but my first thought when I read you question was "still trying to get there"

J

[folsoml]

If I ever get good, I'll let you knwo how long it took.

[Merlin Orr]

If I ever get good, I'll let you knwo how long it took. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Exactly!

[Matt Cheely]

I thought I was good when I started...

Whoops!

[Jake Di Vita]

Depends on your definition of good.

[spook]

Depends on your definition of good.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah definately. I always wondered if the winners have a different definition of good.

[Clay1]

Good thread. I like it when someone pulls one of these oldie but goodies up to the top again.

No one likes to say it and maybe it is bad form to put it into words, but bluntly I don't believe everyone can be a master class IPSC shooter. I believe that there are certain characteristics that add up to be able to make it. Not everyone can be a basketball center for the Lakers, or the quarterback for the Rams etc. Motivation has to play a huge part in the equation, but some of it has to be coordination and physical control as well. I also think that there is a financial restriction for some. No one said that this was an inexpensive hobby, but some might have the drive or motivation just not the financial resources to get to their best.

I also see that the curve is different for many. Some of the guys who make Master in a year have lots of shooting experience, just in a different shooting discipline. You don't see too many that just pick up a pistol and make things happen.

I'm not good, but I am determined to get better. I have a lot to learn and feel like I am not even half way on the journey.

[EricW]

In the very beginning, you need to put some lead downrange. I think the breakover point is about 1K/mo in the beginning. That's 4, 250 round practice sessions a month. I was shooting 1200 to 2000 a month in the *very* beginning when I had my first breakthrough to where I could first "see." It's really tough to learn to see what you need to see at speed shooting much less than that. That's 1K/mo of *good* practice, not just pounding away. That amount of shooting an a commensurate amount of dryfire gets you *into* the game. Doesn't mean you'll be "good."

I want to shoot more ammo, but I think there's a trap with respect to ammo budgets. I don't think that shooting 5000 rounds a month necessarily will make me five times smarter than shooting 1000 rounds a month. There's definitely a point of diminishing returns in there and don't ask me where the breakover is. Brian and Jack became very talented shooting relatively little. Eric Grauffel, from what I understand, burns through hideous amounts of ammo. And he's always a threat.

[D.Hayden]

Good?

Well, I'm having a good time - that's good enough for me.

Will I ever be an A, G, or GM? Maybe not, but that's not why I do it.

I was hooked after the 200 round class I took..

[scooterj]

I've been looking for "good" for 11 years. I think I might finally hear it knocking.

Speed is needed, but speed alone will not win matches for you. I have been trying for max points lately, and winning over faster shooters. I'll trade "no-shoot, mike" for a couple tenths of a sec anyday.

[spook]

I'll trade "no-shoot, mike" for a couple tenths of a sec anyday.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, I also think that this is the key to controlled shooting. Realizing that you can back off a little to avoid disasters/get a much better score.

[Ron Ankeny]

Depends on your definition of good.

I think a C class shooter is on the way to getting "good", a solid B class shooter is "good", an A class shooter is "pretty good", M class shooters are "darned good", GM class shooters are "really, really, really good" and the big dawgs are "simply the best".

[Hamar]

Well, I started this shooting game back in 1989. I bought a Colt Delta Elite 10mm and showed up at a match cold. Liked what the game was all about and decided to become competitive. I shot the 10 stock for that whole shooting season. I finished that season as a D class shooter. Over the following winter, I installed a set of Bomars, Had a Barsto barrel with a dual port comp fitted and added a mag well and an ambi saftey.

The following season I progressed but only to C class. I decided to get deeper and wanted to do way better so I had my local 'smith build me a 9x21 full race P9 (witness). Jerry hadnt shown up at the Nationals yet with the Pro Point so it too had iron sites. I started dry firing 1-1.5 hours every other day and shooting at practice, a 1000 rounds a month. "A" class came withing the first 3 months of 1991. When I "retired" in 1992, I was shooting the P9 with Optics and had just made the big M class. Along with the dry fire and live practice fire, some nights would find me in the back yard, four or five shooting boxes spread throught the place. Getting into and out of those boxes was worked on too.

Getting "good" is about what you put into it. I filmed shooters like Robbie, Mark Mazzotta and others so I could sit at home and learn. My wife or another friend would video my stages so I could see what I was doing wrong or where I could make improvements. I am now back to shooting after 13 years of not even picking up any kind of firearm. I'm shooting factory ammo with a PF of around 195. I have won the L10 class now 3 times (out of 6 matches) and looks like I'll get classified as a solid B. Is that good? Well I'll leave that for others to decide. But, I know I dont have the time or energy as I did 13 years ago to devote to the sport. I'm happy and having fun doing just what I'm doing. If I get any better thats just the gravy on top!

Having fun is what its all about.

[Sam]

The time it takes do anything is really irrelevant.

Set some goals for yourself and work to reach them. They can be anything you want. A seven second El Prez, clean... Earning the next higher classification... Sub-second draw, or reload...

Immerse yourself in learning what you need to learn to achieve the goals. The goals are just to help you focus the learning. Enjoyment doesn't know time. Be where you are and work on the goals. One day you will be shooting and realize that where you are is good.

[GuildSF4]

And something TGO said last Tuesday paraphrased:

If you want to get better faster shoot with someone who is better than you, and watch what they do. You have to have a very keen sense of observation to improve by watching someone who is on the same or lower level than your shooting is.

And he mentioned it helps to have a practice buddy...

[Ben Stoeger]

I about 1/4 of the way done with my 4 year plan to get good. I will come update this thread in a few years and let you know how it went.

Later,

Ben

[Paladin]

you are good when you can place a shot on target whenever you want to, wherever you want to, however you want to..

Dry fire is good for developing coordination, awareness and subconscious interplay.. it is the preparation..

Live fire is good as a reality check.. it is the exam

some prefer taking exams until they pass, others (like myself) prefer preparing and then taking the exam and passing first time out..

[MattBurkett]

I think the problem comes with the question of what one considers "good". Is that a measurement of one's ability or improvement or is it measured against an external standard like classifications (which are not accurate assessments of current skill levels) or match performance?

FYI in my experience the average Master classified shooter from IDPA = about B class in USPSA due to the differences between the two systems.

Remember if you consider yourself "good" it may be significantly limiting to future growth which may be way beyond that construct.

Best of luck

Matt

[benos]

Since labeling a specific skill set as "good" is as relative as you as it gets, my feeling is that even thinking about that question will limit your progress. I'm feeling one of my favorite Bruce Lee quotes coming on - "All goals apart from the means are illusions."

Just learn what it means to "read the gun." The ways in which that will help you are too numerous to list.

be

[George]

I kinda figure that all the best shooters don't think about being good, or great, they just concentrate on constantly getting better.

I know I can shoot OK, but hope I never think I am good, or great. I am always looking for improvement and know that the quest for progress has to be constant or no progress will be made!

I think you have to be really hungry to get really good and even though I am starving, it's a tough road and not one that is easy to properly analyse while being travelled.

--

Regards,

[kellyn]

Getting "good" takes much more than launching numerous rounds downrange, although that is part of the equation.

One thing that has helped me is to watch and analyze other shooters, both the "good" and not so "good." At big matches, I used to (and still do) follow other shooters around when I was not shooting. I learned a great deal about both stage strategy and shooting technique watching the likes of Voigt, Brian, MattB, Miculek, and TGO etc. One important lesson I learned is that there is a great deal of room for individuality in our sport. There is no ONE way to do things. Just because Mike Voigt does something one way does not mean it is right for me (or you) to do it that way (although you need to consider what he is doing and why!)

I also agree with TGO's comments about shooting with others and observing them. I'm lucky enough to shoot at Rio Salado so I get to shoot with and analyze LOTS of very good shooters! I just got to analyze how TGO smoked with me with his XD out of a IDPA holster at Tuesday night steel!

The definiton of good is very elastic. There are some successful (in terms of match wins) shooters who I do not consider to be all that good. There are some less successful shooters who I consider to be very good. Go figure.

Matt is right, once you accept yourself as good -I made it! - you might be limiting yourself. Never accept the status quo!

[Bret Heidkamp]

Here's my two cents on the definition of good (continuing the thread drift, sorry!) :

There are so many points on this that I can think of, but here goes - To me, being "good" = being consistent. Speed is one thing, but being consistent and being smart about how to shoot a stage is what I define as "good." Yet most people define speed as "good" - like, "wow, that was fast!" although there were 5 mikes and a couple no-shoots. Don't get caught up in that nonsense.

A person in our game can gain classification quickly, given practice. Match experience and the ability to make the right decisions on a field course stage comes with more time.

Then, it seems that the higher your skill class, the less tolerant it is of stage errors. ie, in C class you can totally blow a couple stages and still lead the class. In M, that is not possible (I won't speak for GM, as I'm not there yet).

There's nothing more frustrating than making an error, no matter what "skill level" you are at. However, ask any GM or M coming off a stage how they did (that looked like a good run to you) and most likely you'll get some constructive comment of "it was OK but..." Not negative, just constructive. A few times you might get a "that was a pretty good run" but from what I can tell the better your edge, the more focused you are on ever nuance.

So, consistency is key, to me. Focus on your own game, and things will come together...

A friend of mine that is an amazing talent used to say "Shooting is easy, it is us that make it hard." Truer words have never been spoken - after learning the mechanical skills, it's all mental.

How to get better?

Buy all the shortcut material you can, so you don't waste your time. This means Brian's book, Matt's vids, and anything else you can find.

Keep a log book of your practice, so you don't get burned out thinking you're not improving.

Change your courses during practice. I limit myself to 3 runs on a stage before changing something. The higher up you are, the more consistent your times and HF should be. ie, C class will see improvement, M and up shouldn't see hardly any improvement (I usually get slower, go figure!). Don't hammer out the same stage for the whole practice.

On the weekends, with more time, set up a field course. Break it down into small speed shoots if you feel rusty, before shooting it all at one time.

Limit your rounds like JB1 said. For me, after 300 or so, I'm ready to pack it in. Think of this like learning piano. It's not the quantity of practice, it's practicing frequently.

Sorry if I messed up this discussion... too much coffee...