COMBAT, SHOTGUNS, GRENADES & CLAYS!

[ericm]

From the 3 gun nationals discussion: OK, I'll start it!!!

A brief history:

Revolutionary War: Ball 'n Buck was used for antipersonnel out of smoothbore muskets. Later, when rifles were developed (i.e. shotguns and rifles went their own seperate ways), military use of shotguns was limited to foraging during the march and at bivouc (flying birds!).

FF to: WWI: trench warfare, bad mojo, many grenades thrown as indirect defilade weapon. U.S. gets the idea to arm certain good "wing shooters" with model 97 Winchester shotguns to shoot flying grenades out of the air. Soldiers quickly abandon this idea for the more practical use of BUCKSHOT in antipersonnel role (catch the word PRACTICAL??).

WWII: Use of shotguns by US is widespread and in many endevors. Airmen are trained with shotguns (shooting clays) to instill the correct ideas of lead against moving targets; Prisoners are guarded with "Riot Guns" (buckshot) and they are used in the antipersonnel role in the Pacific (and. I'm sure, in Europe as well)

Nowadays, I think Marines still use the "combat shotgun" in an antipersonnel role, but I've talked to SF and Army types who only use the shotgun for breeching (Had one SF guy say "I don't think we're allowed to shoot people with shotguns" and his total shotgun use in war was door breeching)

SO: Clay birds in our sport: The historical precident supports the use of clays to approximate certain target presentations.

Stationary? Flying? Flipping? AND how do we use them correctly in all of these situations with regard to presentation and scoring?

DISCUSS!

ericm

[abn-rgr]

Meh....I still dont like clay birds in 3 gun. Sorry.

[SinistralRifleman]

Flying and moving targets are one of the few things that showcase the practical use of a shotgun; killing small fast moving animals for food.

That said, the shotgun as it is used in 3 Gun is a weird combination between a hunting shotgun and a home defense shotgun that isn't ideally suited for either purpose.

I used my 3 Gun shotgun (24" benelli) at a tactical shotgun match once where we had to crawl through cooper tunnels shoot through awkward positions, we could transition to pistol whenever we shot empty, and we could choose whether to use buckshot or slugs on paper targets on our own. It sucked. It was easy to see the value in an SBS when not constrained by stage target engagement requirements and appreciate how something shorter and lighter would be better for practical use.

The more Rifle/Pistol only venues that come up, the less I will be interested in 3 gun period. We already have 2 monthly rifle/pistol only matches in AZ. I hope the trend spreads. Shotgun is the major obstacle to getting new shooters involved in 3 gun.

[ac4wordplay]

... U.S. gets the idea to arm certain good "wing shooters" with model 97 Winchester shotguns to shoot flying grenades out of the air. ...

I was unaware of this. Quite curious.

[MarkCO]

DISCUSS!

How enlightening! I do think I have the answer though, and yes based on Eric's fine explanation...we all get to vote and if you are an exceptional shotgunner, you have to shoot the shotgun targets, flying flipping and otherwise...the rest of us can skip them. I know I am voting both the Millers as "exceptional Shotgunners". Carry on...

[P.E. Kelley]

At this point I’ll only chime-in with my thoughts on the use clays.

1st. One golden BB my butt! Flying, rolling, or stationary…Bust it! or buy the bloody miss, mister!

2nd. A better launch platform would help but MD’s should require at least a 6 foot vertical rise of a "pop-up" or the target wasn’t available.

3rd. While I love the idea of “practical matches,” 3 gun in most iterations is just fun, every MD has his/her own “spin” and with diversity being the “populist chant” I’ll vote with my wallet.

4th. I like “real” flying clays! RM3G had some very cool (albeit tough) ones this year. Ericm provided the practical validity for their inclusion and I’ll add THE most practical use of a shotgun outside of combat is flying stuff!

5th. Perhaps cardboard “clays” could be developed for us 3 gunners. Toss it any way you like. Just like most paper targets, you don’t know you hit it until you score it. No flying target calls, just pick it up off the deck and see if your magic BB made its mark!

Hmm...cardboard clays…you heard it from me first! Pat’s pat. Pending.

Patrick

[ericm]

I go again

Stationary clay birds on stands are a perfectly good 3-gun shotgun target.

It reacts very well to a good hit with bird shot, is easily arbitrated as kurtm alluded to on the 3 gun nationals thread, and is cheap and easy to reset.

The idea of a single bb hole in the clay as a hit target SIMULATES getting a load of BUCKSHOT on target, and is reasonable in a set of 3 gun rules.

My favorite presentation of stationary clays is the one practiced by Dan Furby of the SMM3G match. A regular humanoid IPSC target has a 10" dia. hole cut out at the A zone and a clay bird stand positioned to center the clay in the middle of the hole. Perfect. No bug hunt. Each target presentation represents a full size IPSC target with the "scoring hit" being a broken clay.

I'm still thinking about flying or flipping birds

Reasonable practical target or capricious novelty target?

ericm

[Bryan 45]

Patrick, that is funny- we are on a quest for a close range reactive rifle target that will either shatter or fall to score with a rifle round impacting it, but shotgun targets must stay together for scoring.

Edited October 31, 2011 by Bryan 45

[bigbrowndog]

I got a flipping bird for you

Just as in ALL targets, there should be NO opinion of a hit!!! there should be a clear and definitive way to mark the hit. A well known or popular shooter could easily gain favor from an RO and get a hit called, when a unknown or new shooter would not, it happens, its not fair, and it can change the outcome of a match.

It falls, it has holes in it, its not there anymore, something!!! But there should be no conversation or dialogue between the RO and the shooter. It kind of goes along the same lines as the SMMG stage where we were told that "this target is not arbitratable" then why have it in a major match????

As for the grenades part, i think mr. Emiller was thinking more Grenadine in his shirley temple???

trapr

Edited October 31, 2011 by bigbrowndog

[bushmeat]

Why does there even have to be a "tactical" justification for the use of stationary, flying, flipping or bouncing clays? 3 Gun is a game and, in that spirit, I believe forum guidelines discourage discussion of what may or may not be relevant to defensive firearms use.

I like clay targets because they let me use my shotgun the way I think it should be used. Most times, in matches, I'm forced to shoot my shotgun like a rifle. Now, I may think that's kinda foolish when I have a perfectly good one right there, but, hey, that's part of the game.

Now, as to consistency, I agree. MDs should strive to have all targets presented as consistently as possible to all competitors. We know things don't always go smoothly and we make allowances. Sometimes you get the breaks or the calls, sometimes you don't.

[bigbrowndog]

I think the point is MAJOR matches and FLYING/FLIPPING clays, and as I said previously ALL targets should be able to be scored definitively, not by OPINION. that way every target could be arbitrated, if you want more shooters to the sport scoring needs to be fair for everyone. If you want aerial clays shoot them at local matches, where entries are cheap and travel is not in the hundreds of dollars.

As for the buckshot aspect of shotgun use, I believe the main reason MD's started allowing birdshot was because people complained about the cost of buck, and the amount of ammo required, personally I have no problem with only allowing buck, as for what the military uses shotgun for, I personally know that there are many, many things that the military uses or doesn't use properly, so just because some "spec op" person says his experience is limited to locks and hinges, doesn't impress me in the least.

Trapr

Edited October 31, 2011 by bigbrowndog

[SinistralRifleman]

Why does there even have to be a "tactical" justification for the use of stationary, flying, flipping or bouncing clays? 3 Gun is a game and, in that spirit, I believe forum guidelines discourage discussion of what may or may not be relevant to defensive firearms use.

Because the game has its roots in the martial use of firearms. As Kurt often mentions, 3 Gun started with the Soldier of Fortune matches. Why did they include shotguns at that time? Because they were popular weapons with military and law enforcement. Today, ~30 years later the popularity of the shotgun with military and law enforcement for anything other than breaching or less lethal use is decreasing. As long as we're shooting at humanoid targets with rifle and pistol in stages that are vaguely military/LE themed or at least testing related skills (building clearing, shooting in urban environments around obstacles or cover), the more out of place the shotgun will feel in the midst of that shooting at flying clays.

Edited October 31, 2011 by SinistralRifleman

[elkboy]

What I like about 3 gun most is it is a test of overall skill and not a specialty skill set. A short barrel/ long barrel rifle may help on one stage but not on another. Adding flying clays, especially from a thrower, rewards the better all around shotgun and shooter. I guess as far as verifiable hits, instead of Patrick's paper birds maybe we should make them out of tannerite- patent concept pending!

[villageidiot]

A short barrel/ long barrel rifle may help on one stage but not on another.

Does the barrel length really matter at all in 3gun, or is it just to keep the magazine extension from looking funny?

Edited October 31, 2011 by villageidiot

[elkboy]

A short barrel/ long barrel rifle may help on one stage but not on another.

Does the barrel length really matter at all in 3gun, or is it just to keep the magazine extension from looking funny?

We must think it does or we would all shoot 16s

[Aglifter]

I think 3 gun needs more rabbit clays... Heck, USPSA could use some rabbit clays...

[SinistralRifleman]

Does the barrel length really matter at all in 3gun, or is it just to keep the magazine extension from looking funny?

Some may argue as 22" barrel points at flying clays better than an 18" barrel. I think its more a function of division capacities being at 9 rounds.

I think the most shells someone can cram in a tube close to the same length as an 18" barrel is 7.

If division capacity was at 6,7,8 I think we would have seen shorter barrels remain the norm, than the now popular 21-24" range.

Under older rules where barrel and magazine tube length were restricted to 21 or 22" and the tube couldn't stick more than 1" past the barrel, 18-20" barrels were the norm.

Edited October 31, 2011 by SinistralRifleman

[busyhawk]

Tannerite...funny that you said something about it. We are trying to use this in the 2012 Northwest Multi-Gun Challenge. Now if the approvals and how to reset go through.

Elkboy, it must be a Northwest thing I am guessing...we are just wanting to have fun with different targets instead of combat related targets. Where is Bushmeat from...:-)

Yes, after 26 years in U.S. Army SF I too was using the shotgun for breaching only and using breaching rounds only. We didn't use shot, buck or any off the shelf item except in practice when we could. The FBI uses the shotgun for the same tool. After most breaches we swing the SG to the back and deploy the rifle or pistol to do our main work. The U.S. Army does not have any slugs...guess it's not tactical? Not trying to impress just stating the facts. No, I don't like it when couch potato quarterbacks take the credit or mislead...or staff pukes.

RLTW,

Busyhawk

Still wearing my flight suit...Nomex

[DyNo!]

Nowadays, I think Marines still use the "combat shotgun" in an antipersonnel role, but I've talked to SF and Army types who only use the shotgun for breeching (Had one SF guy say "I don't think we're allowed to shoot people with shotguns" and his total shotgun use in war was door breeching)

I can say that the shotgun is still VERY MUCH in use today in CONUS military forces.

There are plenty of Mossberg M500s and Benelli M4/M1014s being fired DAILY by Sailors and Marines.

If you have to have a gunfight in a confined place like a ship, fuel facility, or near radioactive materials, or where things shouldn't be shot - nothing beats a shotgun with frangible ammo.

Today, I saw 3 shotguns for every 2 rifles. Just saying...

Edited October 31, 2011 by DyNo!

[1chota]

okay, i will jump in. 22 years U.S. Border Patrol, 8 yrs. firearms instructor for multi-agencies in the fed system.

as a Border Patrol Agent we had Remington 20" 870 shotguns with rifle sights. we had to shoot slugs for qualification. we only carried buckshot in the field. makes you wonder why we had rifle sights? we had Remington 760 .308 rifles, which no one wanted to take into the field. until 1986 when we finally received some M-14s and then in 1988 when we were issued a larger quanity of M-16A1s, we really had to rely on the 870s. buckshot is very good for short distances.

we were armed primarily with .357 magnum revolvers. no night sights. (18 rds. carried on the belt and in the pistol.)

now, as to the practical side of our sport: it is trigger time with 3 different weapons in a challenging environment. i truly wish more law enforcement officers participated. that is the value.

each agency has its own practical training programs with realistic scenarios. our value it getting the trigger time. that pays off 'if' we have to use it. since i am now retired, i sincerely hope i don't have to use firearms in a real life situation. those still in the fight should come and practice.

peace, y'all!

[SMSI]

I like shooting shotguns. at whatever targets. although i agree flying birds are very iffy as far as consistency, and should probably be used in side matches only at a major match. I keep one for primary home protection, as I suspect many forum members do, so there is practical application. but I kind of miss the old Knob Creek match where max barrel was 20" and only buckshot was allowed. I would not want to see them taken out of 3 gun, regardless of current military application.

[J.Schmitt]

We are carry 870's in out squads and qual with 00 buck and slugs.

Jay

[smokshwn]

Patrick, that is funny- we are on a quest for a close range reactive rifle target that will either shatter or fall to score with a rifle round impacting it, but shotgun targets must stay together for scoring.

Bryan, clays work just fine but use the Rabbits rather than the domed clays. A single bb from a pellet gun will cause them to break into several pieces.

NO MORE DOMED CLAYS ON STRINGS!

[actionshooter]

I know our sports roots were based on real world scenarios and I'll never forget my 1st SOF match in '02. But the reality is the sport has evolved and for the most part, has drifted pretty far from anything that is even close too a combat situation. The sport is about (too me) testing my skills, or lack of , with all 3 of my guns. The flying clays test me pretty well.

Now, I will agree that until the flippers can be more reliable, they shouldn't be used at major matches. I've seen too many fly 15' for one shooter and then 5' for the next. Theres no consistancy or fairness with that.

[SinistralRifleman]

I know our sports roots were based on real world scenarios and I'll never forget my 1st SOF match in '02. But the reality is the sport has evolved and for the most part, has drifted pretty far from anything that is even close too a combat situation.

Say again? In the past year major matches have featured stages that involved shooting in caves, with night vision and supressed weapons, tunnels, bunkers, suspended in a rapelling harness (princess gate), from vehicles, exiting vehicles, underneath vehicles, carrying dummies simulating wounded comrades, one handed and support side firearm manipulation/shooting (if this is just a game, why would you ever need to do that?) all while shooting at humanoid targets....now what on earth do any of those skills have anything to do with combat? Stages aren't literal combat scenarios, but many are clearly inspired by them and test skills similar those used in combat. There's also a fair mix of carnival style stages, but the martial roots of action shooting are still present.

As eric mentioned they used flying clays and shotguns to teach target lead in WW2. Maybe clays in 3 gun are just a compromise since we can't generally fire rifles in the air and not many people own belt-feds. lol.