To Coach or not to Coach that is the question?

[ac4wordplay]

These folks are never in the running for the top scores/placement.

Terrible argument. They're competing for 70th (or whatever) place against eight other competitors - you're giving THIS competitor an advantage. Not fair (unless coaching is allowed in the rules). Fellow competitors may/should offer advice prior to "make ready" and of advice/evaluation/analysis after "range is clear".

[mwc]

As I have stated before...coaching is bad for everyone. This is an individual sport and we should all be scored as such. RO's cannot consistantly coach every shooter and not everyone has a team to call out targets for them. Even new shooters should be allowed to learn from their mistakes. Is it fair for new shooter A, who doesn't make any mistakes in a stage, to lose to new shooter B, who was coached thru a stage? It's called competition for a reason and for it to work it must be done consistantly.

I think every match director has the right to run his/her match the way they want and its up to the shooters to read the rules and decide if they will attend that match. I don't think that I will attend another match that doesn't address the issue.

[Fullauto_Shooter]

As I have stated before...coaching is bad for everyone. This is an individual sport and we should all be scored as such. RO's cannot consistantly coach every shooter and not everyone has a team to call out targets for them. Even new shooters should be allowed to learn from their mistakes. Is it fair for new shooter A, who doesn't make any mistakes in a stage, to lose to new shooter B, who was coached thru a stage? It's called competition for a reason and for it to work it must be done consistantly.

Spot on!!

[Dwain C. Baer]

As I have stated before...coaching is bad for everyone. This is an individual sport and we should all be scored as such. RO's cannot consistantly coach every shooter and not everyone has a team to call out targets for them. Even new shooters should be allowed to learn from their mistakes. Is it fair for new shooter A, who doesn't make any mistakes in a stage, to lose to new shooter B, who was coached thru a stage? It's called competition for a reason and for it to work it must be done consistantly.

Spot on!!

All good points indeed...

[MarkCO]

As I have stated before...coaching is bad for everyone. This is an individual sport and we should all be scored as such. RO's cannot consistantly coach every shooter and not everyone has a team to call out targets for them. Even new shooters should be allowed to learn from their mistakes. Is it fair for new shooter A, who doesn't make any mistakes in a stage, to lose to new shooter B, who was coached thru a stage? It's called competition for a reason and for it to work it must be done consistantly.

I think every match director has the right to run his/her match the way they want and its up to the shooters to read the rules and decide if they will attend that match. I don't think that I will attend another match that doesn't address the issue.

Exactly!

[AlamoShooter]

At a mid level and above 'Its twice as hard to Coach good as it is to shoot good".

If the Bird is in the Air , or the timer has sounded any thing said before the wheels fall off is not "helping"

If you use more than three words = its too much and hurts the shooters score

The times I got coaching my response was !What?! What!?!! Full-auto saw me get help at RM3G from the RO and I don't know how much it helped my score after arguing what he was talking about. Full-auto did not get help on the same target from the same RO. = so? think about that

IN defense of the RO the video shows that Full-auto moved twice as fast as me and passed by on the run. my feet were slower and the RO was rite on top of me. So not quite the same thing

So before you open your mouth to "Help" make sure its wanted by the shooter. As a minimum any rules for Coaching should include that the shooter gets only ONE coach and has to designate them at the make ready.

When I do coach before the shooter gets on the stage I try to keep it quiet so as not to distract the other shooters from their plan.

Loud Coaching could be as bad as saying "This it the place the Snake jumps out"! every shooter that passes will wonder what up.

Its not a good event if Everyone does not get a fair attempt at the stages.

Even if I am just going to video a shooter I get their permission first and let the RO know.

[SMSI]

I agree with the "no coaching" posts.

However, today I was ROing a stage at our local 3gun match, and a new shooter had, what was for him, a hopeless jam with his pump shotgun. I handed the timer to the scorekeeper, safely (but violently) cleared the jam, gave him his gun back and let him proceed. Now, I know that wasn't right, but I don't feel bad about it.

[ArmdCtzn]

I say NO to coaching. All of my bad runs in matches have been due to an overlooked target. Maybe it's unique to the matches I shoot, but the stages almost always include several hidden targets that are extremely easy to overlook if you don't have your shooting plan really memorized. As much as I'd like somebody to tell me I missed a target, I don't think it is really right.

Now, at a very small club match with a new shooter, I think coaching is very important and helpful.

My biggest weakness is not having my stage plan really memorized. If I could get people to remind me of hidden targets, I'd shoot much better. But, isn't that half the game in three-gun?

[Jesse Tischauser]

At a mid level and above 'Its twice as hard to Coach good as it is to shoot good".

If the Bird is in the Air , or the timer has sounded any thing said before the wheels fall off is not "helping"

If you use more than three words = its too much and hurts the shooters score

The times I got coaching my response was !What?! What!?!! Full-auto saw me get help at RM3G from the RO and I don't know how much it helped my score after arguing what he was talking about. Full-auto did not get help on the same target from the same RO. = so? think about that

IN defense of the RO the video shows that Full-auto moved twice as fast as me and passed by on the run. my feet were slower and the RO was rite on top of me. So not quite the same thing

So before you open your mouth to "Help" make sure its wanted by the shooter. As a minimum any rules for Coaching should include that the shooter gets only ONE coach and has to designate them at the make ready.

When I do coach before the shooter gets on the stage I try to keep it quiet so as not to distract the other shooters from their plan.

Loud Coaching could be as bad as saying "This it the place the Snake jumps out"! every shooter that passes will wonder what up.

Its not a good event if Everyone does not get a fair attempt at the stages.

Even if I am just going to video a shooter I get their permission first and let the RO know.

This is a very good way of putting it.

[Jesse Tischauser]

The next question is what do you do to the coach and/or competitor if someone is coached on the clock.

[Rookie]

For your consideration...

What if the "coach" is not a competitor?

If the match rules prohibit coaching, it seems to me that the "coach" would be the first to get hit with a penalty. I would think that the RO would have to determine whether or not the shooter involved had solicited the coaching before applying a penalty to the shooter.

Last (well... further down the list at least): What is the generic definition of coaching? I would not necessarily consider someone yelling "Run Forrest, Run" to be coaching, but others may. Your thoughts?

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

I have watched this thread since it started. As an Inexperienced three gun competitor and of the age where brain farts happen, Coaching helps he a great deal. I will take all the suggestions you want to give me BUT, please wait until I am finished shooting because I find it very distracting.

Those coaching mean well but there are just times when it does not help at all.

[EkuJustice]

I dont view calling hits on long rifle steel as coaching, they are simply calling the score out.

On new shooters I say coach away as an RO. Around here we have had quite a few brand new action shooters(ie never shot a pistol match even) show up for the 3 gun matches. Coule that with 2 people who have shot before on a squad of like 10-11 and there was quite a bit of coaching etc before hand. Alot of it was safety related how to avoid getting sent home etc. Gets ready to put a shotgun/rifle down reminded to engage the safety etc.

Keeping the mouth shut would have probibally cut the squad down to under half by the end of the match.

[Rookie]

I thought that the subject of this thread is related to coaching while the shooter is "on the clock". Helping new shooters understand how to shoot a stage, or avoid getting sent home early is not the problem. Where rules prohibit coaching, we're talkling about ...during the course of fire.

[Filishooter]

It doesnt really matter how we feel about it.

Coaching and assistance are covered in the rulebook:

8.6 Assistance or Interference

8.6.1 No assistance of any kind can be given to a competitor during a course

of fire, except that any Range Officer assigned to a stage may issue

safety warnings to a competitor at any time. Such warnings will not be

grounds for the competitor to be awarded a reshoot.

8.6.2 Any person providing interference or unauthorized assistance to a competitor

during a course of fire (and the competitor receiving such assistance)

may, at the discretion of a Range Officer, incur a procedural

penalty for that stage and/or be subject to Section 10.6.

8.6.2.1 When approved by the Range Officer, competitors at Level I

matches may, without penalty, receive whatever coaching or

assistance they request.

I assume it's different in non-USPSA or 'outlaw' matches.

I just watched 3 Gun Nation on Versus (recorded). Are they under different rules from USPSA 3 Gun? Reason I ask is that Pat Kelly forgot his pistol on a multi-gun stage and another competitor (I think it may have even been the MD) ran and got his pistol for Pat to borrow. All this went on after the buzzer went off? I thought right away that was against the rules you posted above.

Edited October 12, 2011 by Filishooter

[AFH]

As far as I know, and can tell from a brief review of the 3GN website, USPSA Nationals is the ONLY match on the 3GN tour that uses USPSA rules. All the others use what are termed modified IMGA rules.

[mwc]

I just watched 3 Gun Nation on Versus (recorded). Are they under different rules from USPSA 3 Gun? Reason I ask is that Pat Kelly forgot his pistol on a multi-gun stage and another competitor (I think it may have even been the MD) ran and got his pistol for Pat to borrow. All this went on after the buzzer went off? I thought right away that was against the rules you posted above.

I was a little surprised to see that as well. Mostly due to safety concerns having someone running around behind the shooter and RO's with a handgun in his hand. I love the fact that we as shooters are willing to loan a competitor anything they need, but once the beeper sounds, you are on your own.

[Bryan 45]

I just watched 3 Gun Nation on Versus (recorded). Are they under different rules from USPSA 3 Gun? Reason I ask is that Pat Kelly forgot his pistol on a multi-gun stage and another competitor (I think it may have even been the MD) ran and got his pistol for Pat to borrow. All this went on after the buzzer went off? I thought right away that was against the rules you posted above.

I was a little surprised to see that as well. Mostly due to safety concerns having someone running around behind the shooter and RO's with a handgun in his hand. I love the fact that we as shooters are willing to loan a competitor anything they need, but once the beeper sounds, you are on your own.

Which is the beauty of not having the same set of rules all matches must follow. Ironman rules allow this type of assistance. Other matches don't.

Was this an unsafe act? It did not appear to this way to me. Others may view it differently.

[bushmeat]

I just watched 3 Gun Nation on Versus (recorded). Are they under different rules from USPSA 3 Gun? Reason I ask is that Pat Kelly forgot his pistol on a multi-gun stage and another competitor (I think it may have even been the MD) ran and got his pistol for Pat to borrow. All this went on after the buzzer went off? I thought right away that was against the rules you posted above.

I was a little surprised to see that as well. Mostly due to safety concerns having someone running around behind the shooter and RO's with a handgun in his hand. I love the fact that we as shooters are willing to loan a competitor anything they need, but once the beeper sounds, you are on your own.

Which is the beauty of not having the same set of rules all matches must follow. Ironman rules allow this type of assistance. Other matches don't.

Was this an unsafe act? It did not appear to this way to me. Others may view it differently.

The USPSA rules say assistance may be rendered if requested and authorized. In the episode referred to above, the MD clearly asked Pat Kelly if he wanted a gun before he went and retrieved his own pistol. As MD, he clearly had the ability to authorize his own action.

As to safety, the pistol was clearly unloaded when the MD came running up with it as Pat Kelly could be seen inserting a magazine after receiving it.

I think it was a sporting gesture. I could also hear friendly coaching, heckling and laughter in the background. With the peanut gallery involved, that communicated a level of camaraderie to the viewer. I'm kinda pleased it's not like tennis.

[KentG]

It doesnt really matter how we feel about it.

Coaching and assistance are covered in the rulebook:

8.6 Assistance or Interference

8.6.1 No assistance of any kind can be given to a competitor during a course

of fire, except that any Range Officer assigned to a stage may issue

safety warnings to a competitor at any time. Such warnings will not be

grounds for the competitor to be awarded a reshoot.

8.6.2 Any person providing interference or unauthorized assistance to a competitor

during a course of fire (and the competitor receiving such assistance)

may, at the discretion of a Range Officer, incur a procedural

penalty for that stage and/or be subject to Section 10.6.

8.6.2.1 When approved by the Range Officer, competitors at Level I

matches may, without penalty, receive whatever coaching or

assistance they request.

I assume it's different in non-USPSA or 'outlaw' matches.

Yet another reason, whole page of reasons to not like USPSA rules for multigun.

[KentG]

Coaching to help newer shooters at club matches is a good thing for those who are receptive to it. As far as regular shooters at club matches I dont see the need for it. Larger matches it shouldnt happen other than for safety. Newer shooters at large matches are on their own. If they feel ready for to enter the match they do so on even footing as all.

[slowsure]

I dont like coaching. As an RO I wish I didnt have to call hits also but, some sort of confirmation is needed when shooting long range non-disappearing steel.

The less a RO has to speak is the best case for all IMHO. Stop, Finger, Muzzle should be the only thing you hear from the RO on the clock anything more is a distraction and or safety issue.

What if the RO calls your miss in MOA and you only understand MIL? Reshoot?

If a new shooter needs some help, give it after the stage is over and in the level of detail that will help the most, not yelling left and right when the new guy is in roll over prone.

[busyhawk]

I just watched 3 Gun Nation on Versus (recorded). Are they under different rules from USPSA 3 Gun? Reason I ask is that Pat Kelly forgot his pistol on a multi-gun stage and another competitor (I think it may have even been the MD) ran and got his pistol for Pat to borrow. All this went on after the buzzer went off? I thought right away that was against the rules you posted above.

I was a little surprised to see that as well. Mostly due to safety concerns having someone running around behind the shooter and RO's with a handgun in his hand. I love the fact that we as shooters are willing to loan a competitor anything they need, but once the beeper sounds, you are on your own.

Which is the beauty of not having the same set of rules all matches must follow. Ironman rules allow this type of assistance. Other matches don't.

Was this an unsafe act? It did not appear to this way to me. Others may view it differently.

The USPSA rules say assistance may be rendered if requested and authorized. In the episode referred to above, the MD clearly asked Pat Kelly if he wanted a gun before he went and retrieved his own pistol. As MD, he clearly had the ability to authorize his own action.

As to safety, the pistol was clearly unloaded when the MD came running up with it as Pat Kelly could be seen inserting a magazine after receiving it.

I think it was a sporting gesture. I could also hear friendly coaching, heckling and laughter in the background. With the peanut gallery involved, that communicated a level of camaraderie to the viewer. I'm kinda pleased it's not like tennis.

Ok guys...Pat was shooting the MGM Iron-Man (Non USPSA and 3GN has no say so with the matches rules that I know of)and with their rules if your firearm goes down or like in Pats case your firearm is not where it is spose to be someone may give you another firearm of the same division but it must be unloaded! Was it safe? Damn rights! Is it within the spirt of the match...yes and for Gods sake it is the MGM Iron man where equipment is tested to the end and I have both shot and ROed the match many times and have seen allot of firearms go down and have team mates render help! Hell, my 1100 went down one year and I was handed a SLP...no advantage since I had never shot one before, had to load it with my ammo from my belt and it was not an Open SG but I did get to finish the stage. I had to go to my backup SG for the rest of the match because my 1100 was unrepairable at the range. Thank goodness my backup was my M1 Benelli!

RLTW,

Busyhawk

[Vespid_Wasp]

I have no problem with coaching new shooters at local matches.

At major matches I think it should be the shooter executing his game plan and if he makes a mistake or leaves some steel the penalty is deserved.

3-gun is lots of fun but if matches aren't kept somewhat 'pure' from a competitive sense, why bother to shoot them? I can go hose down a bunch of targets and shoot long range steel at the range. I shoot a match to compete, and part of the fun is seeing how I stack up against the rest of the shooters.

I suppose the one exception would be natural terrain matches where changes in sunlight/weather make some targets almost invisible. A simple solution would be some fluorescent spray paint in most cases. Or target backers.

[Doug H.]

I just watched 3 Gun Nation on Versus (recorded). Are they under different rules from USPSA 3 Gun? Reason I ask is that Pat Kelly forgot his pistol on a multi-gun stage and another competitor (I think it may have even been the MD) ran and got his pistol for Pat to borrow. All this went on after the buzzer went off? I thought right away that was against the rules you posted above.

I was a little surprised to see that as well. Mostly due to safety concerns having someone running around behind the shooter and RO's with a handgun in his hand. I love the fact that we as shooters are willing to loan a competitor anything they need, but once the beeper sounds, you are on your own.

Which is the beauty of not having the same set of rules all matches must follow. Ironman rules allow this type of assistance. Other matches don't.

Was this an unsafe act? It did not appear to this way to me. Others may view it differently.

The USPSA rules say assistance may be rendered if requested and authorized. In the episode referred to above, the MD clearly asked Pat Kelly if he wanted a gun before he went and retrieved his own pistol. As MD, he clearly had the ability to authorize his own action.

As to safety, the pistol was clearly unloaded when the MD came running up with it as Pat Kelly could be seen inserting a magazine after receiving it.

I think it was a sporting gesture. I could also hear friendly coaching, heckling and laughter in the background. With the peanut gallery involved, that communicated a level of camaraderie to the viewer. I'm kinda pleased it's not like tennis.

Ok guys...Pat was shooting the MGM Iron-Man (Non USPSA and 3GN has no say so with the matches rules that I know of)and with their rules if your firearm goes down or like in Pats case your firearm is not where it is spose to be someone may give you another firearm of the same division but it must be unloaded! Was it safe? Damn rights! Is it within the spirt of the match...yes and for Gods sake it is the MGM Iron man where equipment is tested to the end and I have both shot and ROed the match many times and have seen allot of firearms go down and have team mates render help! Hell, my 1100 went down one year and I was handed a SLP...no advantage since I had never shot one before, had to load it with my ammo from my belt and it was not an Open SG but I did get to finish the stage. I had to go to my backup SG for the rest of the match because my 1100 was unrepairable at the range. Thank goodness my backup was my M1 Benelli!

RLTW,

Busyhawk

On a similar note, I shot with RJ at Ironman a couple of years ago and on Stage 3 (the slide) and his shotgun was not staged (a miscomunitcation with one of the other guys on the squad)so when he got to the shotgun part of the staqe, he looked around and then ran off through the crowd to his gun case, pulled out his shotgun, ran back out on the stage and got on with shooting! Very funny to watch but he was not offered a reshoot.

At Ironman people are always helping out with spare guns and ammo, on the clock, which I think is fine because it is part of the Ironman culture. At any other major match there should not be any coaching, because people want to see where they stand against other shooters and coaching makes the playing field uneven.

Doug