Getting bumped to open from production

[GrumpyOne]

I have never heard of anyone buying their first gun and going straight to a match with it....

I guess you haven't been a match director for a few years then? I've had new shooters show up before they even owned a gun -- shooting a friend's or relative's, with borrowed gear..... :D

Of course I also had a guy show up, at his first match with a member number lower than mine. He discovered USPSA, joined, and then waited ~ 5 years to shoot his first match....

As far as first timers reading the rule book, to me, not reading the rule book before your first match is akin to racing in the Daytona 500, having never driven a race car before....Sure, you can do it, as driving a car is driving a car, but will you finish?

I'm with Aztec on that one. I've read three (four?) rulebooks now, taken an RO class under each of the three, and still don't understand the rules as well as I'd like.....

If we're going to have a rule it should ideally concern itself with one of two things: Safety or Competitive Equity. Pulling a mag out of a pocket during "Make Ready," or stowing it after "If Clear, Hammer Down, Holster" doesn't meet either of those criteria....

I can't think of another good reason to keep that -- but the devil's going to be in the details, i.e. avoiding any unintended consequences....

Nik, the point is, if they showed up at the match, someone, somehow, must have told them about it, or they found out on the internet and have done a bare minimum of research, or watched a match on TV (Shooting USA comes to mind), whether they ever owned a gun or not. None of these resources are completely devoid of mention of the rules. We are doing these new shooters a dis-service by not informing them that there are rules that must be followed (in the case of an experienced shooter telling them about the match and them showing up), borrowed gear or not. If they are borrowing gear, then the person they are borrowing from must be an experienced shooter, right? They didn't inform them that there are rules? If they were informed, and they did not at least glance at the book to know the basics, well then, shame on them....

And I'm not asking that they understand every single letter in the rule book, there are too many variables with interpretation for that (as you yourself pointed out, that you have read 3-4 rule books and taken 3-4 RO classes and are still not clear on some of them), but have a basic understanding of the rules, at least the division requirements for their chosen division (which, if they are borrowing gear from someone, they have told them what division they would be shooting in)...

And as for the guy waiting 5 years....Had he ever read the rule book? Whether it was a 5 year old book or the current one, I'd be willing to bet he had at least glanced over it....

Sure, I can see no logical reason to keep the current rule in place (no mags in the front pocket), but until it's changed, if it ever is, it is still a rule, which we must follow....Like it, don't like it, doesn't matter...If we don't follow that rule, why follow any? I still stand by my words...If a new shooter shows up and wants to shoot a match for score, the rules must be followed....Load from your front pocket = Open...Put the mag in your front pocket after ULSC = Open...Crappy as it may be, it is a rule that we must follow, everytime, to insure that everyone, everywhere, shooting USPSA has the same experience, no matter what club they are shooting at, or at what level match...

And I know new shooters show up with no gear, using borrowed gear, for their first match. I was one of them....I wasn't a USPSA member at the time, and actually didn't join for a few more matches...I borrowed gear for the first match I ever shot (Thanks again AT! ), then bought the correct gear I needed...But even then, I had read the rule book before I shot that first match, and to me, it was clear (I shot SS in my first match) on the position of the gear, and what was and was not acceptable placement. Now, I may be out of the ordinary in that I read the rule book before my first match, but I would like to think that most would, if they knew there was one (which they should know about the rule book, if they are being told about the matches by experienced shooters!).

Edited September 12, 2011 by GrumpyOne

[West Texas Granny]

Working off Spanky's wording, here's my stab at it:

6.2.5.1 The competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, or will shoot for noscore if after the start signal:

6.2.5.1.1 The competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declaredDivision; or

6.2.5.1.2 The competitor retrieves a magazine from a location that fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division.

It still has holes and ambiguity in it, though. Need to mull it over some more.

1. All equipment (type,size,mag,storage system)decisions,apparel,ammo or any other non safety related decision must be made by match personnel prior to the buzzer. Failure to make said decisions after the competitor has stepped into the shooting box cannot be held against the shooter. No bumping to different division or DQ is allowed.

BTW I can see from another's post that I will receive a DQ at every match due to my need to remove belt with holstered weapon after shooting a stage. Strange as a holstered weapon is considered inert.

[wgnoyes]

As for changing the rules and reprinting the book,how many members do not have access to a computer and printer? Stop printing the rule book, put a large notice on the website stating that the rules are available on line and are in a printable format. Updates could be quarterly and if handled properly only a replacement page would need to be reprinted.

Just because WE have computers to play on the internet should not mean that all of USPSA's members should be required to have computers to get rules updates. This sounds like the Federal Government. At least wait until there is more than a 56K connection available.

so as long as even one person is still using a stone knives and bear skins dialup connection, we can never enter the 21st century? Come on, the rulebook is only 586kb in size; that's nothing even with dialup.

[GrumpyOne]

Working off Spanky's wording, here's my stab at it:

6.2.5.1 The competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, or will shoot for noscore if after the start signal:

6.2.5.1.1 The competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declaredDivision; or

6.2.5.1.2 The competitor retrieves a magazine from a location that fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division.

It still has holes and ambiguity in it, though. Need to mull it over some more.

1. All equipment (type,size,mag,storage system)decisions,apparel,ammo or any other non safety related decision must be made by match personnel prior to the buzzer. Failure to make said decisions after the competitor has stepped into the shooting box cannot be held against the shooter. No bumping to different division or DQ is allowed.

BTW I can see from another's post that I will receive a DQ at every match due to my need to remove belt with holstered weapon after shooting a stage. Strange as a holstered weapon is considered inert.

Go to the safe area and bag it, then you can remove your belt...

[BillD]

We want to grow this sport and then we have folks who say the rulebook must be read and understood by all competitors.

This spring, I attended RO training. It took 2 days and was taught, not self taught. Most of the folks who start in this sport may not be the type to sit down and read the rule book from front to end with understanding.

They may just want to shoot the game and kinda pick up the rules along the way. Like a LOT of shooters I see in this game. If that would have been a requirement for shooting my first few USPSA matches, I'd have stayed with IDPA.

I don't see that as a bad thing because most of the rules are pretty obvious and make sense.

This one isn't and doesn't. Admitting that a poor job of wording or unintended consequences occurred due to this rule is the starting point to fixing it.

[GrumpyOne]

We want to grow this sport and then we have folks who say the rulebook must be read and understood by all competitors.

This spring, I attended RO training. It took 2 days and was taught, not self taught. Most of the folks who start in this sport may not be the type to sit down and read the rule book from front to end with understanding.

They may just want to shoot the game and kinda pick up the rules along the way. Like a LOT of shooters I see in this game. If that would have been a requirement for shooting my first few USPSA matches, I'd have stayed with IDPA.

I don't see that as a bad thing because most of the rules are pretty obvious and make sense.

This one isn't and doesn't. Admitting that a poor job of wording or unintended consequences occurred due to this rule is the starting point to fixing it.

Fine, don't read it, it's your perogative....But don't complain when you get moved to Open for an infraction....No one is asking for a new shooter to have complete comprehension of the rules, as people who have shot in matches for years still don't have that. But, they do need a basic understanding of the rules for their division, otherwise how will they know when they have a re-shoot? Or how will they know when they are breaking a rule as far as equipment is concerned? If they want to play the game that way, then let them....But let there be no complaining when something comes down that they don't like....

[BillD]

How many first year competitors do you know that have read and have a full understanding of the rule book?

Hell, I know RO's that don't understand it.

"Sure, I can see no logical reason to keep the current rule in place"

I agree. The point I was trying to make.

Edited September 12, 2011 by BillD

[lugnut]

We want to grow this sport and then we have folks who say the rulebook must be read and understood by all competitors.

This spring, I attended RO training. It took 2 days and was taught, not self taught. Most of the folks who start in this sport may not be the type to sit down and read the rule book from front to end with understanding.

They may just want to shoot the game and kinda pick up the rules along the way. Like a LOT of shooters I see in this game. If that would have been a requirement for shooting my first few USPSA matches, I'd have stayed with IDPA.

I don't see that as a bad thing because most of the rules are pretty obvious and make sense.

This one isn't and doesn't. Admitting that a poor job of wording or unintended consequences occurred due to this rule is the starting point to fixing it.

Fine, don't read it, it's your perogative....But don't complain when you get moved to Open for an infraction....No one is asking for a new shooter to have complete comprehension of the rules, as people who have shot in matches for years still don't have that. But, they do need a basic understanding of the rules for their division, otherwise how will they know when they have a re-shoot? Or how will they know when they are breaking a rule as far as equipment is concerned? If they want to play the game that way, then let them....But let there be no complaining when something comes down that they don't like....

GrumpyOne- let me give you another perspective. First- I'm not advocating ignoring rules.

I have shot USPSA for 3 year now- almost entirely Production. I am a current RO. I have only after reading this thread have I heard heard such I thing as getting bumped to Open if I have a mag in my front pocket in the two situations identified in detail in this thread. I've been to several major matches and many local matches where this was NEVER an issue. I have almost always started with my first mag in my pocket at the MR and almost always have put my partial mag in my front pocket at the ULSC command. I have never been bumped to Open.

This combination of rules or whatever you think- IS NOT OBVIOUS. Now maybe after many of us have sliced and diced the rules here- we can see how it can be interpreted such that a bump to Open is justified based on the current rules.

There is no way in hell in my mind- was this the intent of the rules we have in place today. Sure... enforce the rules today but damn it we need to change them.

[GrumpyOne]

How many first year competitors do you know that have read and have a full understanding of the rule book?

Hell, I know RO's that don't understand it.

"Sure, I can see no logical reason to keep the current rule in place"

I agree. The point I was trying to make.

We agree in theory, just have different points of view on why....Why we should keep it, and why it should go...It's also not logical why the mags and holster have to be behind the hip, but it's a rule, and we must follow it. It's also not logical for production to be limited to 10 rounds after the start, but it's a rule and we must follow it. It's not logical that having a mag in the front pocket is a bump to Open (in SS or Production), but it's a rule and we must follow it. If we are gonna change that one rule, cause people think it's not logical or intuitive, then why not change the rest? So, you can use a DOH on your SS, put it anywhere on your belt that you want, same with Production, load up the mags, put them in front near your belt buckle...Those rules aren't logical or intuitive either, but there isn't anyone screaming to change those...Having a 170mm mag length limit in Open is not logical or intuitive...you can do anything you want to the gun, hence the term "Open", but then you get limited on the length of the mag?

My point is, I don't like anymore than anyone else, and while it may be silly like having an ice cream cone in your back pocket on Sunday in Georgia, it's still a rule, and until it is changed, it should be followed. Making exceptions to rules because we think are "silly" is not what the sport is about. It's about fair and equitable competition, and without the rules, there would be no fair and equitable competition.

If you want the rule changed, contact your SC, your AD, whomever you think it approriate to contact and complain about this rule, but until it's changed, apply the rule as stated in the rule book....Apologize to the shooter, tell them this sucks, but.....rules are rules...If I violate it, I expect to be bumped to Open, and have no issue with it....

[Jim Norman]

BTW I can see from another's post that I will receive a DQ at every match due to my need to remove belt with holstered weapon after shooting a stage. Strange as a holstered weapon is considered inert.

???? Need to remove your belt immediately after shooting a stage???

IF you have a condition that requires the removal, tell the RO, ask to carry your pistol rug up with him or the scorekeeper and at ULSC just bag your gun.

If you just don't want to wear your holstered gun, then go over to the table and do it that way.

[Flexmoney]

...No one is asking for a new shooter to have complete comprehension of the rules, as people who have shot in matches for years still don't have that. But, they do need a basic understanding of the rules for their division,

If you don't see the disconnect with what you said and stowing a mag in your pocket when you are safely trying to unload and show clear...then you likely won't get what others are saying.

(funny observation... quite a few posting about how the shooter needs to know the rules...were often found outside the rules of this forum when they started. )

[BillD]

If you want the rule changed, contact your SC, your AD, whomever you think it approriate to contact and complain about this rule, but until it's changed, apply the rule as stated in the rule book....Apologize to the shooter, tell them this sucks, but.....rules are rules...If I violate it, I expect to be bumped to Open, and have no issue with it....

I never advocated not following the rules. I stated the rule should be changed.

[GrumpyOne]

BTW I can see from another's post that I will receive a DQ at every match due to my need to remove belt with holstered weapon after shooting a stage. Strange as a holstered weapon is considered inert.

???? Need to remove your belt immediately after shooting a stage???

IF you have a condition that requires the removal, tell the RO, ask to carry your pistol rug up with him or the scorekeeper and at ULSC just bag your gun.

If you just don't want to wear your holstered gun, then go over to the table and do it that way.

Wrong quote....that wasn't me that said that....West Texas Granny said that.....

[Jim Norman]

Grumpy,

Sorry about the mis-quote.

Thoughts still apply. West Texas Granny. Ask the RO to bag you at the end of the COF and hand him your bag. Simple solutions for most problems exist.

[GrumpyOne]

...No one is asking for a new shooter to have complete comprehension of the rules, as people who have shot in matches for years still don't have that. But, they do need a basic understanding of the rules for their division,

If you don't see the disconnect with what you said and stowing a mag in your pocket when you are safely trying to unload and show clear...then you likely won't get what others are saying.

(funny observation... quite a few posting about how the shooter needs to know the rules...were often found outside the rules of this forum when they started. )

However you want to say it or post it, whether the person's posting in this forum were "outside the rules" when they started is one thing, outside the rules in the game is quite another. In here, being outside the rules gets a thread locked at worst, does not affect score, and sometimes is funny. In the game it shifts a shooter to Open, affects score, and if everyone else is following the rules, and this one person is not, it potentially skews the scores of all other competitors, by having them illegally in division when they should be in Open.....So, the next time someone posts in the rules forum illegally, you gonna shift them to the Open rules forum? Or, are you gonna let that one slide by because you don't like that rule and think it's "silly"? My bet is, you are gonna follow the rule and lock the thread....Are the rules of the forum any more or less important than the rules of the game?

As far as the disconnect goes...When I ULSC, I don't hold onto the mag, I drop it just like I did during the course of fire....Unlearn the holding onto the mag at ULSC and you don't have the issue of putting the mag in your front pocket before holstering. You drop them duriing the COF anyway, why not now as well? You are more than likely gonna have to go back and pick up the ones you dropped during the COF anyway, what's one more? Or for that matter, many times your fellow shooters will pick them up for you, as you often return the favor at the end of their COF. Drop it, put the gun in the holster, COF is over, pick up your mag...put it wherever you want at that point....Making the assumption that I put them in my front pocket is not a good assumption....So yes, I see no disconnect....As for being in the front pocket at Make Ready, I have never stowed them there either. Always in my hand (which is not a retention device) or in my back pocket (which is behind the hip bone).

[waktasz]

I think the reason for the initial "outrage" or whatever you want to call it about this thread is that you could shoot USPSA for years and never have heard about the rule being applied this way. It sucks for the guys who traveled to an Area match for this learning experience.

[rvb]

unlike power factor floors or # of rounds in the mag or a foot fault or weight of the gun, we are discussing an infraction that occurs prior to the start signal and/or after the last shot and in no way affects performance during the part of the course that matters... the part that's scored.

I'm not sure I even understand how taking a mag before the start from -anywhere- violates the rules?

6.2.5.1 says "if ... fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire..."

where are the equipment requirements defined????

Equipment requirements are defined in 5.2

5.2.4 says "During the course of fire, after the start signal," So as long as I follow mag placement rules after the start signal, I AM satisfying the equipment requirements as defined in 5.2.

I'm meeting 6.2.5.1 simply because the equipment REQUIREMENT is only a requirement AFTER the start signal (again, defined in 5.2.4).

I think it's an interpretation issue, not a rule issue. But what do I know, I'm not even a cert'd RO.

2c from

-rvb

Edited September 12, 2011 by rvb

[GeorgeInNePa]

This has gotten very close to bickering about whether the rules as written are stupid or not. I've only been a RO for a short time but I was told it was part of my duties as an RO to enforce all rules not just those I wanted or liked. Without calling it a gotcha do I let a foot fault go by or maybe shooting freestyle when it should be SHO/WHO (had a stage tossed at an Area match because the RO allowed some people to put a hand on the wall SHO/WHO). Read the RO Creed, it is not us versus them it is about RO's applying the rules equability to all people.

Competitive advantage.

Apples and zebras to having a mag in your pocket before the beep or while showing clear...

[spanky]

Course of fire beings at "make ready."

[GeorgeInNePa]

We want to grow this sport and then we have folks who say the rulebook must be read and understood by all competitors.

This spring, I attended RO training. It took 2 days and was taught, not self taught. Most of the folks who start in this sport may not be the type to sit down and read the rule book from front to end with understanding.

They may just want to shoot the game and kinda pick up the rules along the way. Like a LOT of shooters I see in this game. If that would have been a requirement for shooting my first few USPSA matches, I'd have stayed with IDPA.

I don't see that as a bad thing because most of the rules are pretty obvious and make sense.

This one isn't and doesn't. Admitting that a poor job of wording or unintended consequences occurred due to this rule is the starting point to fixing it.

Fine, don't read it, it's your perogative....But don't complain when you get moved to Open for an infraction....No one is asking for a new shooter to have complete comprehension of the rules, as people who have shot in matches for years still don't have that. But, they do need a basic understanding of the rules for their division, otherwise how will they know when they have a re-shoot? Or how will they know when they are breaking a rule as far as equipment is concerned? If they want to play the game that way, then let them....But let there be no complaining when something comes down that they don't like....

GrumpyOne- let me give you another perspective. First- I'm not advocating ignoring rules.

I have shot USPSA for 3 year now- almost entirely Production. I am a current RO. I have only after reading this thread have I heard heard such I thing as getting bumped to Open if I have a mag in my front pocket in the two situations identified in detail in this thread. I've been to several major matches and many local matches where this was NEVER an issue. I have almost always started with my first mag in my pocket at the MR and almost always have put my partial mag in my front pocket at the ULSC command. I have never been bumped to Open.

This combination of rules or whatever you think- IS NOT OBVIOUS. Now maybe after many of us have sliced and diced the rules here- we can see how it can be interpreted such that a bump to Open is justified based on the current rules.

There is no way in hell in my mind- was this the intent of the rules we have in place today. Sure... enforce the rules today but damn it we need to change them.

That's because there are two types of ROs.

You've only run across the first kind.

[rvb]

Course of fire beings at "make ready."

If you were replying to me, you missed my point. The equipment requirement is only applicable after make ready. not during the whole COF.

Most folks are reading it as two rules, where one superceeds. I'm reading it as two rules where one is a subset because it defines the other.

One says essentially "meet the equip rules during the COF." The other defines the equip rules for the cof by saying "the equip rules for mag placement are [yada yada] and they apply after the start signal"

-rvb

[spanky]

Course of fire beings at "make ready."

If you were replying to me, you missed my point. The equipment requirement is only applicable after make ready. not during the whole COF.

Most folks are reading it as two rules, where one superceeds. I'm reading it as two rules where one is a subset because it defines the other.

One says essentially "meet the equip rules during the COF." The other defines the equip rules for the cof by saying "the equip rules for mag placement are [yada yada] and they apply after the start signal"

-rvb

I'm following you. IMO that is more contradictory than simply interpretation. Even if that proves to be valid, it addresses half of the issue. The other half (stowing mag after ULSC) remains.

This is why I feel that retrieval of mags from non-compliant positions should be what gets you bumped, not simply placement/storage.

Edited September 12, 2011 by spanky

[rvb]

Course of fire beings at "make ready."

If you were replying to me, you missed my point. The equipment requirement is only applicable after make ready. not during the whole COF.

Most folks are reading it as two rules, where one superceeds. I'm reading it as two rules where one is a subset because it defines the other.

One says essentially "meet the equip rules during the COF." The other defines the equip rules for the cof by saying "the equip rules for mag placement are [yada yada] and they apply after the start signal"

-rvb

I'm following you. That addresses half of the issue. The other half (stowing mag after ULSC) remains.

This is why I feel that retrieval of mags from non-compliant positions should be what gets you bumped, not simply placement/storage.

A mag in the wrong place after the last shot is a no-no, and my partial always goes into the a mag pouch.

Sounds like you and I are in agreement about what the current rules say... before buzzer, ok; before range is clear = open. Others aren't seeing it that way it seems. I think before we focus on a change, we need to have a consensus about what we are changing. Your suggestions about retrieval is a great place to start. Stick'em anywhere during the COF.... use 'em after the start from an illegal position and hello open.

-rvb

Edited September 12, 2011 by rvb

[Braxton1]

One thing that I've never understood and I am sure will cause me to be flamed & flogged for ignorance:

Why, if you get "bumped" for an equipment issue, do you get bumped to Open? Seems like to me, if my gun is 0.5 oz. too heavy or the R.O. doesn't like my magazine in my front pocket at ULSC, then I just went to L-10 Minor, which is the most-appropriate Division for my "Gamey" gear.

Just sayin'....

[Singlestack]

One thing that I've never understood and I am sure will cause me to be flamed & flogged for ignorance:

Why, if you get "bumped" for an equipment issue, do you get bumped to Open? Seems like to me, if my gun is 0.5 oz. too heavy or the R.O. doesn't like my magazine in my front pocket at ULSC, then I just went to L-10 Minor, which is the most-appropriate Division for my "Gamey" gear.

Just sayin'....

It is a penalty that is supposed to hurt. You won't forget it...