Getting bumped to open from production

[Flexmoney]

We are expecting them (customers?) to know a lot of other rules so why not this one?

This one is particularly counter-intuitive.

It should come with Vasoline.

[Flexmoney]

It is what it is and until (if) it gets changed we need to follow the rule to the letter. We as shooters are responsible for reading and knowing the rules period. If we get caught not following a rule we get punished... sounds fair to me.

When new shooters show up to your match, do you help them figure out which division their gear fits in, or do you just hand them a rulebook and let them flap in the wind?

[Dan Hefta]

It is what it is and until (if) it gets changed we need to follow the rule to the letter. We as shooters are responsible for reading and knowing the rules period. If we get caught not following a rule we get punished... sounds fair to me.

When new shooters show up to your match, do you help them figure out which division their gear fits in, or do you just hand them a rulebook and let them flap in the wind?

Oh for sure Flex, I was refering to shooters that show up at level 2 and 3 matches, you should know the rules if you are going to attend those matches. It's our jobs at local level 1 matches to advise our newbs and help them out. But I am not going to read the book to them, that is their responsibility.

Edit to add: That's why I think it is important to run Level 1 matches like they are Level 2-3 matches so that shooters learn from their mistakes at a local match that cost them $20 + gas, instead of $200 + lots of gas and motel expenses.

Edited September 7, 2011 by danscrapbags

[lugnut]

We are expecting them (customers?) to know a lot of other rules so why not this one?

This one is particularly counter-intuitive.

It should come with Vasoline.

I agree. I know plenty of folks that have been shooting for a long time, and don't keep up with this stuff on BE (shame on them I know). They would never know what hit them until they spent a lot of money to go to a major match.... and got bumped to Open! It has happened recently at some Area matches. A buddy of mine had this happen to them... the RO was going to do something until the RO realized my buddy was shooting Limited 10.

As someone that knows the rules reasonably well... I have to believe this wasn't the "intent" of the current rules... I play many shooting games and I always have grabbed my starting mag from my front pocket... and I have always put the partial mag at the ULSC command in the front pocket as well. Plain ole stupid rule(s) IMO. I'm not one to advocate intentionally breaking or ignoring the current rules but you'd never see a shooter getting bumped to Open for this with me running the timer.

Edited September 7, 2011 by lugnut

[al503]

When new shooters show up to your match, do you help them figure out which division their gear fits in, or do you just hand them a rulebook and let them flap in the wind?

Depends on how (un)prepared they are. If its obvious that they've put in some effort to familiarize themselves with the basic rules, then no problem. If its obvious that they just showed up without a clue, thats a different story.

[aztecdriver]

It is what it is and until (if) it gets changed we need to follow the rule to the letter. We as shooters are responsible for reading and knowing the rules period. If we get caught not following a rule we get punished... sounds fair to me.

It seems to me that there are 2 rules in conflict. Which one am I supposed to follow?

Scott - I just read both rules -- again.

So the rewrite will look like this:

6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire after the start signal, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise the competitor will shoot the match for no score.

This will fix all ills, no?

I'm not getting on board will changing what happens at ULSC. There is nothing that changes with the competitor state at that point, and we don't WANT that changing. They're still afforded the ability to fire, just because they MAY be ULSC, doesn't mean they have to. Put the discharge mag in the back pocket.

[aztecdriver]

I have a question for all of you that are advocating that you should be able to put your mag anywhere you want during ULSC.

Are you prepared for the rules to change such that if you respond to the command ULSC by starting to unload by unloading your weapon and removing the mag that you have conceded any further shots and that any further shot will be treated as if I you have been given ICHDAH? Meaning, you stop ULASC, you drop the mag see one hole in the target in front of you and you strong arm fire the round in the gun - you are now DQ'd. That will be the net result of changing the rules so that you can put your mag anywhere you see fit during ULSC.

Freestyle demands that during the course, you are free to engage. It's why the command at the end is IF YOU ARE FINISHED... I may not be finished... up until I show clear - i don't HAVE to be finished, which means I can wake up, throw a fresh mag in the gun, and go shoot another 30 rounds - even after the command is given, and even after I have dropped that fateful mag out of the gun and set in my front pocket. Do we really need to make a new rule that states If the competitor ejects his mag after ULSC and violates division equipment rules, as long as another shot is not fired, there is no violation of division requirements under the rule, but if they fire an additional round after violating division rules, the provisions of 6.2.5.1 should take affect? We need to do all of that because you'd rather use the front pocket instead of the back? You would rather invite that argument, and hamstring yourself into eating a mike - or a bunch of mikes, because you need to use your front pockets? Yeah, I know it's about 5 seconds before the payback on most courses for a mike -- It seems like an unreasonable request.

Up until Make Ready - completely reasonable. ULSC, you are still allowed to shoot until I see clear and give IF CLEAR, Hammer down and holster, and the divisional requirements should be observed until you can no longer shoot without being DQd

[aztecdriver]

When new shooters show up to your match, do you help them figure out which division their gear fits in, or do you just hand them a rulebook and let them flap in the wind?

Depends on how (un)prepared they are. If its obvious that they've put in some effort to familiarize themselves with the basic rules, then no problem. If its obvious that they just showed up without a clue, thats a different story.

I have learned never to make assumptions about what somebody knows or how they have prepared for the match. Too many times have I trusted someone that says "Hey, i'm new, but I know what I am doing" and then I run into a trainwreck that I should have seen coming.

[lugnut]

Are you prepared for the rules to change such that if you respond to the command ULSC by starting to unload by unloading your weapon and removing the mag that you have conceded any further shots and that any further shot will be treated as if I you have been given ICHDAH? Meaning, you stop ULASC, you drop the mag see one hole in the target in front of you and you strong arm fire the round in the gun - you are now DQ'd. That will be the net result of changing the rules so that you can put your mag anywhere you see fit during ULSC.

Here's my quick thought- don't take it verbatim-> don't retrieve a mag from in front of the hips after the buzzer for use during the COF. If they stow a partial mag after the ULSC and then proceed to fire the chambered round- what have them gained from stowing a mag? Nothing. Now if they stow the partial mag, retrieve it and fire 3 more shots- Open it is. As long as the shooter retrieves all mags during the COF from behind the hips I'm good with it.... Notice I didn't say anything about "stowing" a mag.... you wouldn't bother stowing anything with the intent of using it since you would have to "retrieve" it first!

If someone retrieved a mag from a pocket that is in front of his/her hips and used it after the buzzer, during the COF- I could live with that being a bump to Open.

EDITED to add "after the buzzer, during the COF"

Edited September 7, 2011 by lugnut

[Skydiver]

Are you prepared for the rules to change such that if you respond to the command ULSC by starting to unload by unloading your weapon and removing the mag that you have conceded any further shots and that any further shot will be treated as if I you have been given ICHDAH? Meaning, you stop ULASC, you drop the mag see one hole in the target in front of you and you strong arm fire the round in the gun - you are now DQ'd. That will be the net result of changing the rules so that you can put your mag anywhere you see fit during ULSC.

Here's my quick thought- don't take it verbatim-> don't retrieve a mag from in front of the hips after the buzzer for use during the COF. If they stow a partial mag after the ULSC and then proceed to fire the chambered round- what have them gained from stowing a mag? Nothing. Now if they stow the partial mag, retrieve it and fire 3 more shots- Open it is. As long as the shooter retrieves all mags during the COF from behind the hips I'm good with it.... Notice I didn't say anything about "stowing" a mag.... you wouldn't bother stowing anything with the intent of using it since you would have to "retrieve" it first!

If someone retrieved a mag from a pocket that is in front of his/her hips and used it during the COF- I could live with that being a bump to Open.

And we're back were we started because you just say "and used it during the COF". The COF begins at "Make Ready".

[lugnut]

Are you prepared for the rules to change such that if you respond to the command ULSC by starting to unload by unloading your weapon and removing the mag that you have conceded any further shots and that any further shot will be treated as if I you have been given ICHDAH? Meaning, you stop ULASC, you drop the mag see one hole in the target in front of you and you strong arm fire the round in the gun - you are now DQ'd. That will be the net result of changing the rules so that you can put your mag anywhere you see fit during ULSC.

Here's my quick thought- don't take it verbatim-> don't retrieve a mag from in front of the hips after the buzzer for use during the COF. If they stow a partial mag after the ULSC and then proceed to fire the chambered round- what have them gained from stowing a mag? Nothing. Now if they stow the partial mag, retrieve it and fire 3 more shots- Open it is. As long as the shooter retrieves all mags during the COF from behind the hips I'm good with it.... Notice I didn't say anything about "stowing" a mag.... you wouldn't bother stowing anything with the intent of using it since you would have to "retrieve" it first!

If someone retrieved a mag from a pocket that is in front of his/her hips and used it during the COF- I could live with that being a bump to Open.

And we're back were we started because you just say "and used it during the COF". The COF begins at "Make Ready".

Opps. I meant to say:

If someone retrieved a mag from a pocket that is in front of his/her hips and used it after the buzzer, during the COF- I could live with that being a bump to Open.

Sorry.

[spanky]

Write it so that retrieving equipment from non-compliant locations after the buzzer is a bump to open. That way your competitors can put it in their pocket after ULSC and they won't be bumped (unless they pull it back out and reload).

Edited September 7, 2011 by spanky

[sperman]

It is what it is and until (if) it gets changed we need to follow the rule to the letter. We as shooters are responsible for reading and knowing the rules period. If we get caught not following a rule we get punished... sounds fair to me.

It seems to me that there are 2 rules in conflict. Which one am I supposed to follow?

Scott - I just read both rules -- again.

So the rewrite will look like this:

6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire after the start signal, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise the competitor will shoot the match for no score.

This will fix all ills, no?

I'm not getting on board will changing what happens at ULSC. There is nothing that changes with the competitor state at that point, and we don't WANT that changing. They're still afforded the ability to fire, just because they MAY be ULSC, doesn't mean they have to. Put the discharge mag in the back pocket.

I agree completely.

slight thread drift: Be sure to say hi this weekend. I'm shooting Friday morning and working Stage 9.

[DrawandDuck]

As I only shoot open I do not have a dog in this hunt, as a MD I was not aware and I would have to have a deep hatred of the shooter to bump them into open for retrieving a mag before the course of fire or stowing one after ULSC command in their front pocket......it is almost like some of the outdated and dumb laws still on the books..like the one below from Georgia...seemed in the sprit of this thread...

http://www.dumblaws.com/laws/united-states/georgia

"No one may carry an ice cream cone in their back pocket if it is Sunday."

Edited September 7, 2011 by DrawandDuck

[aztecdriver]

It is what it is and until (if) it gets changed we need to follow the rule to the letter. We as shooters are responsible for reading and knowing the rules period. If we get caught not following a rule we get punished... sounds fair to me.

It seems to me that there are 2 rules in conflict. Which one am I supposed to follow?

Scott - I just read both rules -- again.

So the rewrite will look like this:

6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire after the start signal, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise the competitor will shoot the match for no score.

This will fix all ills, no?

I'm not getting on board will changing what happens at ULSC. There is nothing that changes with the competitor state at that point, and we don't WANT that changing. They're still afforded the ability to fire, just because they MAY be ULSC, doesn't mean they have to. Put the discharge mag in the back pocket.

I agree completely.

slight thread drift: Be sure to say hi this weekend. I'm shooting Friday morning and working Stage 9.

To finish the drift - I'm shooting the afternoon and working stage 6 - I'll track you down.

[badchad]

FWIW, I don’t have a problem with anyone using their front pockets after the start signal either, like in start with all mags on the table. It’s probably not an advantage over putting them in your pouches but if it were I see it as a practical skill. IPSC lets you stow mags anywhere after the start signal, which I think is fair enough.

IPSC Handgun Rules, January 2009, 2nd Edition

5.2.4. Spare ammunition, magazines and speed loading devices should be

carried in retention devices specifically designed for that purpose, to

reduce the risk of loss during a course of fire.

5.2.4.1. For table starts or similar, after the Start Signal, the competitor

may carry those items anywhere on their person, and this will

not be treated as contravention of Divisional rules.

[JakeMartens]

Ok so here are the rules that are causing all this (unless I am missing something, which is very possible)

Start of a course of fire:

8.3.1 “Make Ready” – This command signifies the start of “the Course of

Fire”. Under the direct supervision of the Range Officer the competitor

must face down range, or in a safe direction as specified by the Range

Officer, fit eye and ear protection, and prepare the handgun in accordance

with the written stage briefing. The competitor must then assume

the required start position. At this point, the Range Officer will proceed.

End of a course of fire:

8.3.8 “Range Is Clear” – This declaration signifies the end of the Course of

fire. Once the declaration is made, officials and competitors may move

forward to score, patch, reset targets etc.

Not meeting Division equipment requirment and being checked:

6.2.3 Prior to the commencement of a match, each competitor must declare

one Division for score. Match Officials should check holsters and other

competitor equipment for compliance with the declared Division prior

to the competitor making an attempt at any of the courses of fire.

6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other

requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the

competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise

the competitor will shoot the match for no score.

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed

loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the

competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless

specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may

also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel

pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the

location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of

Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).

Everyone agree that a course of fire starts at "Make Ready"

Everyone agree that a course of fire ends at "Range is Clear"

Can everyone agree that 6.2.5.1 says you go to open if you don't meet the equipment requirement of your declared division?

Can everyone see where 5.2.4 allows you the use of putting mags in pockets after the start signal? Except if it violates Appendix D, Item 12 and is subject to provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1, which states during a course of fire. And a course of fire starts at "Make Ready"

Is it a by product of the rules to ding someone if ulsc and put an empty mag in their front pocket, probably, is it stupid, maybe.

So is it easy for the new shooter to understand, NO (evening exisiting shooters)

What is that 5 rules to explain why you can't pull or put a mag in your front pocket, but only in two divisions

would it suck to get bumped to open for this, or have to bump someone to open, YES

But changing when a course of fires starts and ends effects alot of other rules. Changing the wording in 6.2.5.1 would work.

There are the stories out there,

"shot a whole match then got to the last stages adn was told my holster is a DOH and I got bumped to open"

"gun weighed 43.2 got bumped to open"

"had grip tape on the slide, got bumped to open"

those are all rule violations

So don't put or pull a mag from your front pocket, it is a rule.

[Nik Habicht]

WOW! I thought this was beaten to death right before the Single Stack Nationals.

To me the rule is simply stated. It is not ambiguous. There is no judgement call i.e., if ..... then .... otherwise ...... unless.....

Sure the rule bugged me at first because like many folks wearing 5.11 I put my first mag in my front pocket. I stopped doing it after the rule was clarified.

I vote to just leave it alone.

I would second that vote.

I think this might be inline with that ancient rule about not having more than ten rounds in a magazine in Production or Lim-10 during the course of fire.....

After a bunch of folks got bumped to Open (at the Nats), the rule was amended to the current standard of "after the start signal."

I'd be o.k. with a similar change -- and with letting competitors pocket the mag after "If clear, hammer down, holster," since at that point they are prohibited from shooting again.....

[Nik Habicht]

So the rewrite will look like this:

6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire after the start signal, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise the competitor will shoot the match for no score.

This will fix all ills, no?

I'm not getting on board will changing what happens at ULSC. There is nothing that changes with the competitor state at that point, and we don't WANT that changing. They're still afforded the ability to fire, just because they MAY be ULSC, doesn't mean they have to. Put the discharge mag in the back pocket.

I'm thinking:

6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, after the start signal and prior to "If Clear, Hammer Down, Holster, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise the competitor will shoot the match for no score.

Once that command is given, the competitor is prohibited from firing another shot, with the consequence of a match DQ....

[Skydiver]

We're almost there folks... Now consider a multi-string COF.

After the first string, the RO says "If finished, make ready for your next string."

Shooter ejects mag out of his single stack gun and puts it into his front pocket.

[spanky]

We're almost there folks... Now consider a multi-string COF.

After the first string, the RO says "If finished, make ready for your next string."

Shooter ejects mag out of his single stack gun and puts it into his front pocket.

make it illegal to retrieve after start signal. not simply store.

[BillD]

We're almost there folks... Now consider a multi-string COF.

After the first string, the RO says "If finished, make ready for your next string."

Shooter ejects mag out of his single stack gun and puts it into his front pocket.

make it illegal to retrieve after start signal. not simply store.

Simple yet elegant.

[GrumpyOne]

So the rewrite will look like this:

6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire after the start signal, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise the competitor will shoot the match for no score.

This will fix all ills, no?

I'm not getting on board will changing what happens at ULSC. There is nothing that changes with the competitor state at that point, and we don't WANT that changing. They're still afforded the ability to fire, just because they MAY be ULSC, doesn't mean they have to. Put the discharge mag in the back pocket.

I'm thinking:

6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, after the start signal and prior to "If Clear, Hammer Down, Holster, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise the competitor will shoot the match for no score.

Once that command is given, the competitor is prohibited from firing another shot, with the consequence of a match DQ....

Nik, not quite. After that command, the cof is still not over until the person actually holsters the weapon. There was a discussion on here about that, and that was the ruling, dropping the gun and getting DQ'd, but if it fell out of the holster it was no dq. So, the way I see it, until the gun is holstered, you are still in the COF, and therefore are under the rules for the COF. Placing a mag in the front pocket of your pants before holstering is a trip to open...

But the solution is simple....Don't put mags (or ammo) in your front pocket if you are shooting SS or Production...

Edited September 8, 2011 by GrumpyOne

[sirveyr]

As I only shoot open I do not have a dog in this hunt, as a MD I was not aware and I would have to have a deep hatred of the shooter to bump them into open for retrieving a mag before the course of fire or stowing one after ULSC command in their front pocket......it is almost like some of the outdated and dumb laws still on the books..like the one below from Georgia...seemed in the sprit of this thread...

http://www.dumblaws.com/laws/united-states/georgia

"No one may carry an ice cream cone in their back pocket if it is Sunday."

WTF! Where exactly would you people like me to put my damn ice cream? I sure as hell don't want to be eating in Open too. What about a Jello Puddin' Pop? Where can I store that? Can I carry it like a Limited mag?

[Skydiver]

As I only shoot open I do not have a dog in this hunt, as a MD I was not aware and I would have to have a deep hatred of the shooter to bump them into open for retrieving a mag before the course of fire or stowing one after ULSC command in their front pocket......it is almost like some of the outdated and dumb laws still on the books..like the one below from Georgia...seemed in the sprit of this thread...

http://www.dumblaws....-states/georgia

"No one may carry an ice cream cone in their back pocket if it is Sunday."

WTF! Where exactly would you people like me to put my damn ice cream? I sure as hell don't want to be eating in Open too. What about a Jello Puddin' Pop? Where can I store that? Can I carry it like a Limited mag?

Off topic: Here's a current law in WA state: RCW 46.61.665 put in around 1979: It shall be unlawful for any person to operate a motor vehicle upon the highways of this state when such person has in his or her embrace another person which prevents the free and unhampered operation of such vehicle. Operation of a motor vehicle in violation of this section is prima facie evidence of reckless driving.

Back on topic: I think that Spanky has it right about putting emphasis on retrieving after the start signal.

Edited September 8, 2011 by Skydiver