USPSA Revolver Participation

[No.343]

I thought what I proposed was pretty clear. The minor PF floor is lowered to 105. Major is major (165) whether moonclipped, speedloaded, or single-loaded. A moonclipped minor gun is scored minor. A speedloaded minor gun is scored major so as to make the majority of revolvers out in the real world appear competitive in the Division.

After I found my glasses and reread your post I see I misunderstood.but

if you make the standard .38 Special factor (105, it appears) and use speedloaders, major, but if you use moonclips, minor.

The only thing that registered on my brain (not enought room for a lot of information there) was the last part. I see now that major for moonclipped gun is at 165 and major for a speedloader gun is (whatever is decided). But we want to go a step further to include 7 and 8 shot, and open revolvers to their fullest, or at least see if it is feasible and to what cost. So if you are in the OKC area on the first Saturday in Oct bring it down so we can get some viable data. Film at eleven. later rdd

I would love to do this but I sold my beloved 8 shot to a FREIND of mine

I would bet that he already put a dot on it but has yet to drill ports in it. And it shoots well. later rdd

I heard that there are still a lot of alphas left in that gun.

Edited October 1, 2011 by No.343

[underlug]

I thought what I proposed was pretty clear. The minor PF floor is lowered to 105. Major is major (165) whether moonclipped, speedloaded, or single-loaded. A moonclipped minor gun is scored minor. A speedloaded minor gun is scored major so as to make the majority of revolvers out in the real world appear competitive in the Division.

After I found my glasses and reread your post I see I misunderstood.but

if you make the standard .38 Special factor (105, it appears) and use speedloaders, major, but if you use moonclips, minor.

The only thing that registered on my brain (not enought room for a lot of information there) was the last part. I see now that major for moonclipped gun is at 165 and major for a speedloader gun is (whatever is decided). But we want to go a step further to include 7 and 8 shot, and open revolvers to their fullest, or at least see if it is feasible and to what cost. So if you are in the OKC area on the first Saturday in Oct bring it down so we can get some viable data. Film at eleven. later rdd

I would love to do this but I sold my beloved 8 shot to a FREIND of mine

I would bet that he already put a dot on it but has yet to drill ports in it. And it shoots well. later rdd

I'll bet the dot is Tasco 40mm multi dot

[Bubber]

Hmmm? I am plesantly surprized of the outcome today. We had 8 revos shooters and three of us were shooting an open revo. Either with 8 shots or an optic sight. I was shooting an optic with 8 shots. I was pushing to the limit and beyond to really put the pressure on the 6 shot major guys. Out of the 7 stages I won 3 of them. With No 343 winning 3 of them and ChrisC. taking the other one. Only on two stages was there a distinct advantage of the two extra shot. An all steeel stage with 6 hits per each of three positions. I used 1 extra shot on two positions and with the Dot It was fasster by a large margin. But shooting minor was no disadvantage on an all steel stage. On another it was 8 shots per shooting area with no way to divide it up more than that. The tactic that worked best on the major was to shoot all A's and not go full bore through the course. On the more technical course where there were other options the advaantage of the 8 shot were mostly negated. But I was going all out and maybe should have shot more conservatively. But where was the fun in that. We had an open shooter which we conned into shooting the 8 shot revo and he was all smiles at the end of the day and remarked how much fun he had. Not a convert yet but possible. We had the normal revo shooters there, normal is quite a stretch but you know what I mean and added one for this. Waiting to hear from some more guys Thanx rdd

[ChrisC]

Like I said on the trip home...

if uspsa will do for the revo division what they did with the single stack i will shoot an 8 shot/minor power factor. It would not be dividing the numbers of revo shoots because we will all still be in the same division...

6 shots= major

7 or more=minor

no dots or ports just plain old good fun with the round gun......

the only thing it can do it get more participation in the revolver division.......

[Bubber]

Like I said on the trip home...

if uspsa will do for the revo division what they did with the single stack i will shoot an 8 shot/minor power factor. It would not be dividing the numbers of revo shoots because we will all still be in the same division...

6 shots= major

7 or more=minor

no dots or ports just plain old good fun with the round gun......

the only thing it can do it get more participation in the revolver division.......

I also think the Dot and ports were over the top a bit. The next time I will try it with the 8 shot iron sights and just shoot more conservative.

[Bubber]

A little more information on the stage where there were 4 areas (Boxes) to engage 4 targets each from the each box.

No.343 shot the two targets on the left side and then transitioned all the way to the right side took the two shots left and then reloaded for the 7th and 8th shot, then carried two rounds to the next position. Two shots on the left reload, two hits on the left long transition to the right and 4 shots on the two targets before moving to the next position This was repeated until finished. No. 343 was pushing to his limit to make up the time that was saved by me not having a standing reload at each position.

ChrisC. Used the long transition on each position to reload. So it was four shots to the left Side reload 4 shot to the right side. Reload on the move to the next position and repeated until finished. He used the time saved with the reload on the transitions to get a better sight picture to hit the A’s better to offset the time I saved by not having to do the standing reload.

Chris’s plan worked better. He was 0.37 of a second slower than No. 343 but had 10 points higher in raw score which equated to a 7 point advantage over No.343 on that stage. He added three more reloads to the mix but they were on the move. Sometimes a plan is worth more than pure speed. No.343 and I were going on pure speed throughout the match and dropped a lot more points than we were used to.

(Note) I use their screen names to protect the innocent, not really I just don’t know if they want there names out there

[West Texas Granny]

If they made moonclipped guns minor I would reach through the cowebs to grab the old limited gun and join WT Granny in spraying and praying. I learned during Area 4 that minor is very bad for your scores.

It was worth at least 4 1/2 points. Lowereing the PF floor would be nice so that it would not beat up my elbows and such. Making moonclip guns minor is not an option I wuld consider as it accomplishes nothing. It is easier to learn to relosd with a moonclip gun but that is where it ends. ONe still has to perform under match conditions. In a couple of weeks I will see if the other options discussed will affect revovler turnout. I hope at least a few take advantage of the opportunity to try the 7 & 8 shot vs the 6 shot in a match. Anyone get any data yet? Later rdd

I would agree about moon clipped guns not being made minor. In revolver I shoot the S&W 25-2. Not a minor gun for sure. My biggest gripe is scoring A zone hits for minor and major the same. In my eyes shooting minor provides a competitive advantage over those shooting major. So I would suggest a rule change is needed to correct this scoring inequity.

Edited October 2, 2011 by West Texas Granny

[Bubber]

If they made moonclipped guns minor I would reach through the cowebs to grab the old limited gun and join WT Granny in spraying and praying. I learned during Area 4 that minor is very bad for your scores.

It was worth at least 4 1/2 points. Lowereing the PF floor would be nice so that it would not beat up my elbows and such. Making moonclip guns minor is not an option I wuld consider as it accomplishes nothing. It is easier to learn to relosd with a moonclip gun but that is where it ends. ONe still has to perform under match conditions. In a couple of weeks I will see if the other options discussed will affect revovler turnout. I hope at least a few take advantage of the opportunity to try the 7 & 8 shot vs the 6 shot in a match. Anyone get any data yet? Later rdd

I would agree about moon clipped guns not being made minor. In revolver I shoot the S&W 25-2. Not a minor gun for sure. My biggest gripe is scoring A zone hits for minor and major the same. In my eyes shooting minor provides a competitive advantage over those shooting major. So I would suggest a rule change is needed yo correct this scoring inequity.

WTG, Am I understanding this right. You would have the A Zone score less if you are scoring minor? To take away the benefit of shooting minor they have made all B & C hits on paper worth 3 points for minor and 4 points for major. All D hit are worth 1 point in minor and 2 points in major. In a competition where speed is heavily favored I think those scoring are adequate. My opinion only.

Edited October 2, 2011 by Bubber

[Shadowrider]

Well I wish I could change my vote now after shooting the match yesterday.

It was a fun match and from my experience seemed to be a pretty good test with varied COFs. IIRC two stages were 6 shot neutral and others just weren't no matter how you tried to game them. I even got a procedural for trying to make one 6 shot neutral. Oh well, my bad. These things tend to drive home the point of paying attention in the walk through.

I was shooting one of Bubber's open guns in 6 shot minor. Thanks much Bubber! I learned a lot.

I was trying to shoot a "clean match". Clean for me means zero no-shoots and zero mikes. Kind of like ICORE because those things just kill you in ICORE. I succeeded in that regard and I did well for my goals of this match. Lots of alphas and most of my charlies and deltas were on the "weak hand" stage. I think.... And most important of all, I wasn't last in the overall! In revo yes, but not overall.

Things that this lowly C class Limited shooter who is thinking of going to open with a 2011 race gun garnered from this match:

K frames are much harder to reload, but much easier to shoot than N frames.

Optics rock! That is if you can find the dot.

A 7 shot L frame might just be the cat's meow, though that 8th shot would be nice to have for a makeup shot and you could game the stages just like in single stack.

I saw Bubber leave more moons on the ground with 1 or 2 rounds left in them than I was expecting, even though he was able to shoot all eight in this match. He did utilize the 8 shots, I'm just saying it wasn't as big of an advantage as I was expecting.

If 8 shot minor were allowed I would definitely be inclined to shoot more revo because you can game it just like single stack. Single stack has decent participation and one would have to assume revo would grow, at least to some extent. I say lets do it and find out.

Where are those 8 shot L frames?

[ChrisC]

I am having a hard time trying to grasp what a moon clip has to do with competitive advantage.

Wtg im curious what is your revo classification and how often do you shoot revo?

Most of the revo shooters I shoot with would give up the major scoring for two extra rounds even if it isn't always an advantage.

[diehli]

I am having a hard time trying to grasp what a moon clip has to do with competitive advantage.

Since that was originally my suggestion, I'll answer that.

Comparing a moonclipped 6-shot .38 variant revolver to a speedloaded 6-shot .38 variant revolver, I think the moonclipped revolver would reload more easily and, thus, would reduce the time required to complete a course of fire.

I contend that non-moonclipped 6-shot .38 variant revolvers make up the majority of revolvers out there, which would be a better source to draw new competitors into Revolver Division than cannibalizing current Revolver participants or requiring specialized equipment or work—i.e. getting the current dominant gun (a 625), getting the gun modified for moonclips, or getting a rarer 8-shot .38 variant—to feel competitive. I contend that the perception of equipment competitiveness is paramount to participation, hence the development of Divisions generally in the first place, but, in more recent history and more pointedly, in the development of Production and Single Stack Divisions.

I believe that allowing 8-shot .38 variant revolvers into the Division will effectively cut off the largest market segment of revolvers from being competitive, thereby shrinking the pool of potential competitors rather than increasing it.

[coldchar]

Shooting Icore classic and Uspsa moon clipped, the moon clip probably saves me a second a reload and more than that by eliminating the loverly star hangup.

[Bubber]

I am having a hard time trying to grasp what a moon clip has to do with competitive advantage.

Since that was originally my suggestion, I'll answer that.

Comparing a moonclipped 6-shot .38 variant revolver to a speedloaded 6-shot .38 variant revolver, I think the moonclipped revolver would reload more easily and, thus, would reduce the time required to complete a course of fire.

I contend that non-moonclipped 6-shot .38 variant revolvers make up the majority of revolvers out there, which would be a better source to draw new competitors into Revolver Division than cannibalizing current Revolver participants or requiring specialized equipment or work—i.e. getting the current dominant gun (a 625), getting the gun modified for moonclips, or getting a rarer 8-shot .38 variant—to feel competitive. I contend that the perception of equipment competitiveness is paramount to participation, hence the development of Divisions generally in the first place, but, in more recent history and more pointedly, in the development of Production and Single Stack Divisions.

I believe that allowing 8-shot .38 variant revolvers into the Division will effectively cut off the largest market segment of revolvers from being competitive, thereby shrinking the pool of potential competitors rather than increasing it.

From what I have seen and experienced, a moonclippped 38 special is not faster than a Comp III or similar speedloader. Now the 45 and similar moonclipped revos have an easier learning curve and will fall in much easier. HJowever from last years Memphis Challenge there were 4 Speedloader guys in the top 16 and one of them hit the top ten. It all depends on the effort you wish to apply to practice. The challenge, where I see it is getting the info on USPSA shooting (Revos) is finding a way to reach these gun owners of the K and L frame revos and get them interested in shooting this format or any other format for that matter. Now each of us may different expeiences depending on enviroments regarding shooting and it may be totally different in other areas. Given that Thank you for your input. Later rdd

[Bubber]

I received forum message from No.343 and sought his permission to post here. He gave it so here it goes

I can't believe you used words like "innocent" and "normal" to describe your fellow revolver shooters.

Here are my observations back on the subject of revolver participation:

Some folks NEED to shoot optics. Many of them are the foundation of our sport and need our support. Maybe we need to have revos with optics competing in USPSA. However, I don't think that optics and iron sights should compete in the same division. I won't compete against optics with my irons sighted gun. That puts us back on the old issue of dividing a small pool of shooters.

Then there is the eight shot vs. six shot debate. My opinion is that revolver capacity restrictions should only be based on the minimum diameter of the bullet and minor power factor. If I want to use a cylinder the size of a street sweeper then that should be my problem. I think that making the revolver fit a specific box size would be a good compromise. Lets leave round capacity out of the rules.

We are not here to practice with our self-defense weapons. We are playing a game with technological demands. Let's not stifle ingenuity.

[ChrisC]

It's been my experience that moon clips are not that much faster than speed loaders if any at all... if you practice you can do both equally as quick... both my ICORE retro percentages and my limited percentages are fairly equal..

I don't think anything we do is going to make a significant difference in how many revo shooters come out to play in uspsa... it takes more skill and concentration to shoot revo division. just allowing 8 shots isn't going to make a limited shooter to go spend a grand on a 627 and then dump another 600 in moons, brass, and equipment. but it might draw some of the icore guys over to play..

making moon clip guns minor would kill the division (in my opinion)

[diehli]

making moon clip guns minor would kill the division (in my opinion)

Again, I never suggested that. I suggested making the PF of minor .38 variant guns reloaded with speedloaders major.

[ChrisC]

oh.. my bad.. just misread it..

[10mmdave]

making moon clip guns minor would kill the division (in my opinion)

Again, I never suggested that. I suggested making the PF of minor .38 variant guns reloaded with speedloaders major.

oh.. my bad.. just misread it..

Glad that got cleared up

[Buffalobolt]

HI everyone! New member here. I've recently found this site, and have been following this topic (and board) with a lot of interest.

I thought that I would throw my $.02 in here as a "newer" revolver shooter.

I recently returned to USPSA and had been shooting a 1911 in Limited 10. That is, until I purchased a 627PC! I've shot revolver in USPSA in the past (mdl 27 PPC gun), but I fell in LOVE with this revolver!

I started in the revolver division, but quickly realized that in the heat of the moment I couldn't count to 6! Several times I put a seventh or eighth shot downrange.

As a believer in "...you do what you train to do", I hated the thought of dumping two rounds on the ground each reload. Yeah, I know it's a game, but I still don't want to dump two live rounds on the ground IF I ever have to use this pistol in defense of my home.

So, I decided to shoot in Production (plus there was rarely anyone shooting Revolver anyways to compete with). I'm shooting Minor (38SC), AND I give up two rounds, at least I can (and usually do at the wrong times) shoot my gun dry.

For me, I do this mostly for fun. And so far there has been nothing more fun than taking some ribbing from the auto shooters, and then either beating them, or at least wiping the grin from their faces!

I've got a long ways to go, but having fun, and getting a lot of good info here! Hope to see you out there!

Mike

[Cd662]

Let me play devil's advocate here. In people's local shooting communities, how many revolver shooters or shooters that own revolvers do people know who have definitively said that they would shoot USPSA Revolver Division IF (insert change here)? I'm having a little trouble understanding something here. The thread seems to be geared towards encouraging new revolver shooters to shoot USPSA; so this could either be individuals completely new to the community, with no background in action pistol sports, or existing shooters from other formats (ICORE, IDPA, etc). As far as I see it, there are two kinds of shooters in general. Some shooters primarly want to participate in local matches (and even regional matches) for recreation; they do not see themselves as being competitive, they do not intend on practicing sufficiently enough to be competitive, and admit that their primary motivation for shooting is because they enjoy the game's format and the social interaction at said matches. The second class of individuals are those who want to climb the ladders and be competitive. Perhaps an offshoot of this second group are people who shoot other formats who may use USPSA as trigger time for their discipline.

I think most of the discussion here is geared towards the second group. If people want to shoot for fun and because they enjoy the format, or want to practice for something else, I don't think they're going to care that much about scoring. I've met tons of shooters in general who insist (perhaps they are lying) that they don't look at their scores and don't care. If such a recreational revolver crowd existed on the local shooting level, I don't think those individuals would care too much about format changes, 6 VS 8 shot, etc; they just want to show up and put holes in things. The people that do care are those who want to be competitive; this includes existing USPSA competitors who may be willing to shoot the revolver division. Until the general amount of revolver participation increases, I don't think modification of scoring would be that productive; capacity I suppose is up in the air. I don't really know a lot of people with 7 and 8 shot revolvers.

If some revolver shooters including ones here like to compete, are we potentially losing them to other divisions due to lack of participation? I recently shot a Level 1 "State Championship" USPSA match which was fun, but if I had known I would be the only participant in my division, I would have either shot in another division entirely or not gone and saved my money for a closer match. Part of being a competitor is wanting to compete, and other divisions do not seem nearly as lacking as us when it comes to competitors of all different Class levels.

[Flexmoney]

We had one local shooter show up just because of this thread. He ran both guns.

He hasn't shot USPSA in a while. He usually shoots Steel Challenge, NRA-AP, ICORE, etc.

[Bubber]

Let me play devil's advocate here. In people's local shooting communities, how many revolver shooters or shooters that own revolvers do people know who have definitively said that they would shoot USPSA Revolver Division IF (insert change here)? I'm having a little trouble understanding something here. The thread seems to be geared towards encouraging new revolver shooters to shoot USPSA; so this could either be individuals completely new to the community, with no background in action pistol sports, or existing shooters from other formats (ICORE, IDPA, etc). As far as I see it, there are two kinds of shooters in general. Some shooters primarly want to participate in local matches (and even regional matches) for recreation; they do not see themselves as being competitive, they do not intend on practicing sufficiently enough to be competitive, and admit that their primary motivation for shooting is because they enjoy the game's format and the social interaction at said matches. The second class of individuals are those who want to climb the ladders and be competitive. Perhaps an offshoot of this second group are people who shoot other formats who may use USPSA as trigger time for their discipline.

I think most of the discussion here is geared towards the second group. If people want to shoot for fun and because they enjoy the format, or want to practice for something else, I don't think they're going to care that much about scoring. I've met tons of shooters in general who insist (perhaps they are lying) that they don't look at their scores and don't care. If such a recreational revolver crowd existed on the local shooting level, I don't think those individuals would care too much about format changes, 6 VS 8 shot, etc; they just want to show up and put holes in things. The people that do care are those who want to be competitive; this includes existing USPSA competitors who may be willing to shoot the revolver division. Until the general amount of revolver participation increases, I don't think modification of scoring would be that productive; capacity I suppose is up in the air. I don't really know a lot of people with 7 and 8 shot revolvers.

If some revolver shooters including ones here like to compete, are we potentially losing them to other divisions due to lack of participation? I recently shot a Level 1 "State Championship" USPSA match which was fun, but if I had known I would be the only participant in my division, I would have either shot in another division entirely or not gone and saved my money for a closer match. Part of being a competitor is wanting to compete, and other divisions do not seem nearly as lacking as us when it comes to competitors of all different Class levels.

cd662, Let's see...How to answer.. Your points are valid to the respect of why some shoot (just to have fun). In the olden days prior to Revolver becomming a division we always shot heads up, 8 shot 7 shot 6 shot optics or iron sights. When USPSA formed the Revo division it was decided that it would be 6 shot only (Must reload prior to the 7th shot. A few shooters had bought the new 8 shots to compete in revo division and now they were told they had to reload after firing 6 shots. Now this same argument comes up about every two years, Why not let the 8 shots play. This is my second atempt to get data for an intelligent argument. I though for sure that the 6 shot just could not compete with the 8 shot even though they could be scoring major and w the 8 shots would only score minor. After having three competitors compete against a good group of Revo shooters I am not so sure now. On a stage by stage breakdown the 8 shot had a distinct advantage when there were 8 shots from one position and no way to engage the targets any other way. But when the revo shooters were not tied to that it evened out slightly. I had shot my open Revo for the first match. The next time I shoot I will be using my 8 shot iron sighted revo. I think my shooting optics was a little over the top just a bit. On tactics (gaming) when we were shooting minor against the majors we had to concentrate on hitting mostly A's and now that if a stge ties the 6 shot's hands to a standing relod they have to go about the same way to offset the 2 shot advantage. We just need more data from around the forum members to see what holds water. Several others are awaiting to try their hand at this so I am going to wait and see what comes up. later rdd

[lora]

1st I want to appologize to underlug, since I said I was done, but this is just to share the shooting participation observation last weekend. Again, I was the only revolver shooter at the Titusville USPSA match. BTW, Buffalobolt it is a beutiful feeling to wipe the gins off of the auto shooters isn't it. The Icore match in Orlando had 30+. If we are looking for more revolver shooters in uspsa why not recruit from Icore. Aside from all the debating points already expressed. How can it get any worse, with the participation scoreboard of 1 vs. 30+, in central Florida. Isn't there a way to try this as a conditional national rule,for the major/minor scoring, no optics,to obtain a thourough sample size.

Edited October 7, 2011 by lora

[pyrrhic3gun]

I vote for limited 8-shooters in a class called R8 and all open revos in RO. If a club wants to make them major or minor, I don't have a problem.

I haven't noticed any problem with USPSA having at least four classes for 1911 shooters (open, limited, L10, single-stack). One just picks which game he (or she) wants to play and brings the right gun. I never really pay much attention to how many people are in my class at a match, anyway.

I can't see it taking a whole lot of time to modify the scoring program (see 1911s above)...in fact we used to shoot Open revos all the time at Cactus matches (in Phoenix for the non-AZ people). And the match organizers shouldn't have a problem with which category our name prints out under...they still get the same entry fee and I really doubt the few people we're talking about will change the participation numbers enough to affect slots to the nationals.

Additionally, I really like shooting full-moon clip revos at USPSA matches so I get all my brass back and don't have to depend on the prima-donna open shooters who can't be bothered to pick up brass. Oh no, I went there! :^)

[cylindrically challenged]

I ususlly shoot Steel Challenge & NRA Action with my 8 shot 627 revolver. But last weekend I shot a USPSA match with both my 6 shot major revo (625)against my 8 shot minor revo. The only reason I even went to the USPSA match was to support the possibility of having 8 shot minor revolvers included in USPSA'a revo division. If it weren't for this thread there would have been "NO" revolver shooters. I was the only one. There were about 30-35 auto shooters. As USPSA's rules currently stand revolver participation can't get much worse. USPSA has nothing to lose by adopting the 8 shot minor revolvers. Maybe you can turn abysmal attandence into acceptable attandence by pulling some ICORE shooters and 627 fans into the mix.