USPSA Revolver Participation

[jhgtyre]

We have some requests to discuss USPSA revolver division. Please participate in the poll to help gather some data. The objective of the discussion is to determine if there is any evidence to support suggesting a change in the USPSA revolver division rules to allow 8 shot revolvers to compete.

I will say that I don't believe a change will happen unless we change. At last years Area 2 match there were 8 revolver entrants. Granted I know two shooters who shot Open with their revolvers so there could have been 10 competitors in Revo if the rules allowed them to use those guns. Our range has an active ICORE club as does another range across town. A nice pool of revo talent to draw from but only 8 of them signed up for Revo Division at the A2 match. The 2010 USPSA Nationals had 22 revolver entrants. The same number as our last club match at Rio.

Unless we show greater participation, or evidence that a change will result in greater participation, USPSA has no reason to listen to us. I would think that adding Open or Limited to the current (Classic?) Revo Division is completely out of bounds. We cannot ask them to dilute an already miniscule pool even further. It is possible that getting the 7 and 8 Shots in but only scored as minor has some merit. As has been mentioned by others this model seems to work for the Single Stack division.

So who has a match willing to try it out and who is going to commit to go? I know some folks played with the math already but a match would be more to our benefit. Real world numbers play better to certain crowds.

[revoman]

7 to 8 shot should be a stand alone Revolver Open division and not included with the current revolver division.

Open revolver steel is another sport I compete in with my 8 shot. Just to clarify, I marked that I shoot Open in USPSA and when I do I only shoot with my open 8 shot revolver ICORE gun and I only do that at local matches.

Last question does not pertain to me as I currently shoot in USPSA, but I could not skip this question as the poll would not let me vote without answering this question. I had to answer no as answering yes would be the wrong answer since I already shoot USPSA.

Edited August 22, 2011 by revoman

[jhgtyre]

I tweaked two of the questions based upon your response. That should help others.

Thanks,

-ld

[Bubber]

As I would like to shoot my Open revolver in USPSA, it would have to be as revoman notes a stand alone division of Revolver as I would have a large advantage because of my equipment. As I shoot revo in USPSA, my shooting in Open Revo would divide the numbers in the already sparce revo division. So I voted no on allowing 7 and 8 shots to compete in Revo division regardless of how many shots fired prior to a reload. Those that believe it can be done with no harm to the current revo division need to do the leg work to get it done and prove me wrong. I hope you do. later rdd

[John Z Sr]

Just my niclke (2 cents adjusted for inflation) would be to keep revo at 6. I shoot revo in all the games and there just does not seem to be enough 7 & 8 shot revos to make a difference. You can shoot your 8 shot in L10, or open with a red dot. Unless you are jerry, you will not win in open against real open guns, and would be shooting for fun, so my vote is leave revo at 6

[ShootsinRain]

Look at icore match numbers versus uspsa match participation.

A change could be very beneficial to uspsa revo attendance at all levels (local up to nationals).

[MarkCO]

I shot revolver in IDPA and enjoyed it a lot. I shoot revolvers at the range informally often and hunt with them. I've not tried USPSA in Revo even though I own equipment suitable. If 7 or 8 rounds were allowed, it would probably ensure I would never try it. As it is now, just trying to keep going in USPSA Limited and 3/MGun are enough to keep me busy. If I wanted to get serious about Revo, I would likely shoot steel challenge or an ICORE match before USPSA. USPSA stages just seem more conducive to the larger capacity divisions and I would not encourage further restrictions on course design nor another division as I think we already have plenty.

[Joe4d]

What you have to consider isnt increases in revolver shooters, but increase in match shooters overall. By your own example the large icore crowd in your neighbor hood bring autoloaders to the USPSA match, Letting them shoot their revolvers would have just moved them from one division to another, not brought in more shooters. Although I cant come up with great why's I can come up with several why nots.

Minor Major scoring was specifically designed around a lower capacity Major gun competing against a minor higher capacity gun. The system worked for years when the 1911 and Browning Hipower were the only guns in town, It currently works in single stack, so why not have a 8 round minor, 6 round major.

You cant use low sales figures because maybe no one is buying them because there is no where to shoot them.

If we used this 6 round only mentality in autoloaders we would still all be shooting single stack 1911's. Let innovation innovate.

[underlug]

As I would like to shoot my Open revolver in USPSA, it would have to be as revoman notes a stand alone division of Revolver as I would have a large advantage because of my equipment. As I shoot revo in USPSA, my shooting in Open Revo would divide the numbers in the already sparce revo division. So I voted no on allowing 7 and 8 shots to compete in Revo division regardless of how many shots fired prior to a reload. Those that believe it can be done with no harm to the current revo division need to do the leg work to get it done and prove me wrong. I hope you do. later rdd

"as I would have a large advantage because of my equipment"

Bubber, I did not know this. Congratulations

I think revolver division should be left alone and voted so. It is too small to divide. Besides, we all have to deal with Bubber's equipment advantage.

[bdpaz]

For iron sighted 8 shot revolvers I suggest starting at the bottom (local matches) and doing it yourself. Sign up the 8 shot people in Production, get their hit factors from the results and use them to manually recalculate the revo standings. Find some methods to distribute the outlaw revolver division results and see what happens. If this generates significant numbers of 8 shot entrants then you can talk to USPSA about revising the rules to reflect the actual participation. I don't see that Open revolver has a chance as I don't think there would be enough entrants to justify it (although I would be one!).

I have shot a couple of USPSA matches with my 625 and found them boring - 6 shots just don't provide enough shooting before reloading. I have shot a few in Open with my 627 + red dot optic and they were fun, although I certainly wasn't competitive in the division.

[ChrisC]

id like to see it, iron sights only...

[Bubber]

As I would like to shoot my Open revolver in USPSA, it would have to be as revoman notes a stand alone division of Revolver as I would have a large advantage because of my equipment. As I shoot revo in USPSA, my shooting in Open Revo would divide the numbers in the already sparce revo division. So I voted no on allowing 7 and 8 shots to compete in Revo division regardless of how many shots fired prior to a reload. Those that believe it can be done with no harm to the current revo division need to do the leg work to get it done and prove me wrong. I hope you do. later rdd

"as I would have a large advantage because of my equipment"

Bubber, I did not know this. Congratulations

I think revolver division should be left alone and voted so. It is too small to divide. Besides, we all have to deal with Bubber's equipment advantage.

In my best Will Sonnet voice

"No Brag,... just fact."

[Shadowrider]

Well I'm a newcomer to revolver and my shooting sure shows it, but I voted NO. I understand the major/minor difference and while it does help level the playing field, it's still the same playing field basically. I really just don't think it would bring in any new shooters to revolver division, or at least not enough to be statistically significant.

What Bubber posted makes far more sense in my mind. A full-race revo and a full-race 2011 are "apples and oranges". Making them play on the same field is like a junior high football team taking on the Packers.

I don't really have any ideas on how to increase revolver competitor count. Maybe some revolver only matches would bring some extra folks out and then they would see how challenging and fun it is? Sometimes you just have to do it to get the full effect, ya know? But therein lies the crux. Who would be willing to put on said match? With all the variety of different matches we have to pick from these days, it would be a difficult task to attract entrants. Quite the conundrum...

[Blueridge]

As has been said by others, the participation of revolver shooters is too low to warrant any further changes in the division. I agree with this assessment personally, and if that changed would support the modification of the division or adding an open revolver division.

It will take an increase in revolver participation to get to a place where modifying the revolver division or adding and open revolver division will be a reasonable consideration. The best way I can think of to get such a change rolling would be to get a manufacturer such as S&W to hold or be a major sponsor of a match that had revolver division and open revolver division in it. A manufacturer that makes 7-8 shot revolvers would be able to "showcase" their products at the match, and could event have the match coincide with the release of a "competition" 8 shot revolver. With a manufacturer behind the idea, the USPSA organization would really take notice.

Just an idea.

Edited August 23, 2011 by Blueridge

[smith52]

I have been shooting USPSA for about a year and a half and in the last month started shooting in the revolver division. My take is that the revolver division should be left as is and I voted that way. I feel that the use of an 8 shot revo and allowing 8 shots between reloads would be a great advantage even scored minor due to the 8 round neutral stages in USPSA. Don't get me wrong I see revo shooters beat folks from SS, Prod, Lim, Lim-10 but, I think if you took 2 revo shooters of the same skill level gave one an 8 shooter and one a 6 shooter I think the 8 shooter will always come out on top (because of the 8 rd neutral stages). It would be an interesting experiment any way. Considering you can shoot your 7 and 8 shooters in revolver now as it is (remebering to count to 6), I don't think it would have enough affect on participation to warrant changing the division.

Edited August 23, 2011 by smith52

[10mmdave]

Mike brought up a good solution that could put this debate to bed once and for all.

Create a provisional class/division in Revo for 8 shot revolvers shooting minor and

let's see how it works out ? It wouldn't need to be in a nats match for awhile and

like the Single Stack Classic maybe then the Memphis Charity Classic could become

the Revo Nats a lot of folks are looking for.

We wouldn’t be diluting the revo pool, 8 shooters are shooting with 6 shooters.

I don’t believe we’re talking about Open Revo’s, it’s hard enough to get iron sighted

Revolver shooters to join in.

The subject has come up a couple/few times this past year and maybe it’s time to consider

it. I know of a few 8 shot shooters shooting in production. They do it because

they want to shoot their 8 shooters without being penalized for shooting a 7th or 8th shot.

I’ve been toying with that idea locally to see how it stands up but to get real data

wouldn’t I have to shoot the match twice ?? Once with a 6 shot major and with an 8 shot minor ?

All I’m comparing my data to is the other production shooters ?

What we want to see (imo) is if using and 8 shot revo in minor can really be that much better.

(didn’t look that way in single stack, except for the really talented)

As mentioned previously, depending on stage design a 6 shot and an 8 shot could be on a level

playing field, not all stages are designed in 8 rnd array’s.

And yes, there is ICORE, but wouldn’t it be nice if we could get them to try USPSA Revo division ??

[Mark R]

I don't shoot revolver, but possibly would if 8 shot revos were allowed...

The rulebook states in Courses of Fire:

1.2.1.1 “Short Courses” must not require more than 8 rounds to complete...

1.2.1.2 “Medium Courses” must not require more than 16 rounds to

complete...must not require more than 8 scoring hits from

any single location or view...

1.2.1.3 “Long Courses” in Level III or higher matches must not require

more than 32 rounds to complete...must not require more than 8 scoring hits from any single

location or view...

Looks like everything in stage design/COF is divisible by 8 and allowing 8 shot revos would make them somewhat competitive with the semi autos...IMO.

Edited August 23, 2011 by Mark R

[revoman]

The best way I can think of to get such a change rolling would be to get a manufacturer such as S&W to hold or be a major sponsor of a match that had revolver division and open revolver division in it. A manufacturer that makes 7-8 shot revolvers would be able to "showcase" their products at the match, and could event have the match coincide with the release of a "competition" 8 shot revolver. With a manufacturer behind the idea, the USPSA organization would really take notice.

Just an idea.

This has already taken place in ICORE with the IRC. The IRC alone had 81 open shooters, 119 limited shooters and 32 classic shooters. Regional particapation in 2011 shows 23 open, 9 limited and 5 classic in the Rocky Mountain Region. 15 open, 47 limited and 18 classic in the Central States Region. 38 open, 53 limited and 19 classic in the Southwest Region. For a total of 157 open, 228 limited and 74 classic and you add these all together it comes to 459.

If USPSA could draw 10% of these contestants to any area matches or even nationals it would triple the particapation that is currently taking place now. The majority of the shooters from ICORE are from California and that shows from the particpation at the Southwest Regional but look at the numbers for the Central States and that drew shooter from all over. If we are to grow in numbers we need to expand and experiment. Not all change is good but you will never know if change is never tried.

[rtr]

I don't understand the logic of "revolver participation is too low so we shouldn't change anything". It seems to me that BECAUSE participation is so low making changes may increase participation. One change that makes sense to me is allowing 8 shot minor guns to compete with 6 shot major guns on a provisional basis. See if participation increases and if the 2 can compete evenly. If it works that is great. If not no harm no foul.

[dillon]

just FYI, but the reason ICORE participants might not shoot in USPSA Production Division is that a revolver that has been gunsmithed for ICORE does not meet the requirements for Production. No bobbed or replacement hammers, no aftermarket cylinder releases, etc, are allowed in USPSA Production. Therefore, USPSA Production Division is not a viable alternative for many ICORE participants. I would love to see 7 &8 shot revolvers allowed, at least on a trial basis, as minor only revolvers. I think it is worth a try, as Single Stack did.

[coldchar]

As a USPSA match director, CRO, who is also an avid revolver shooter, I have to support the idea that one cannot compare Single Stack minor/major with what is being proposed for revolver because of the stage designs.

As much as I hate it, USPSA stages (with the rise of bottom feeders) are now built around arrays which are 7-8 round friendly. The minor competitor shooting a 1911 vs the major competitor shooting a 1911, both will be able to complete the target array without a reload. Thus, except for the recoil and extra shots (offset by modified scoring), they are pretty well competing equally. Match results are bearing this out more and more. For example we saw recently The Great One (other than Jerry) still came in second because of an ammo pf problem and he was kicked down from major to minor.

An 7-8 round revolver will also be able to complete a target array , but the poor guy with the 6 shot is going to have a reload. Regardless of the scoring there will be no way to make up the difference.

All this will do is totally split the revolver guys who will not even be able to meaningfully compare their scores. This is really bad when there is likely to be 1-2 of them, at most, at any one match.

I do see the 8 round revolvers being able to compete, semi decently, in production or limited 10 because of the 7-8 round target arrays.

Jim G

[Bubber]

Mike brought up a good solution that could put this debate to bed once and for all.

Create a provisional class/division in Revo for 8 shot revolvers shooting minor and

let's see how it works out ? It wouldn't need to be in a nats match for awhile and

like the Single Stack Classic maybe then the Memphis Charity Classic could become

the Revo Nats a lot of folks are looking for.

We wouldn’t be diluting the revo pool, 8 shooters are shooting with 6 shooters.

I don’t believe we’re talking about Open Revo’s, it’s hard enough to get iron sighted

Revolver shooters to join in.

The subject has come up a couple/few times this past year and maybe it’s time to consider

it. I know of a few 8 shot shooters shooting in production. They do it because

they want to shoot their 8 shooters without being penalized for shooting a 7th or 8th shot.

I’ve been toying with that idea locally to see how it stands up but to get real data

wouldn’t I have to shoot the match twice ?? Once with a 6 shot major and with an 8 shot minor ?

All I’m comparing my data to is the other production shooters ?

What we want to see (imo) is if using and 8 shot revo in minor can really be that much better.

(didn’t look that way in single stack, except for the really talented)

As mentioned previously, depending on stage design a 6 shot and an 8 shot could be on a level

playing field, not all stages are designed in 8 rnd array’s.

And yes, there is ICORE, but wouldn’t it be nice if we could get them to try USPSA Revo division ??

I agree with 10mm Dave but here is the rub as stated by Dave

I don’t believe we’re talking about Open Revo’s, it’s hard enough to get iron sighted

Revolver shooters to join in.

How do we get the provisional division started and what can I do to aid. Even though I voted No only because I felt it would be unfair.

Later rdd

[Pseudonym]

I have been a long time lurker here on the forums, and I rarely post on internet forms, but I do have an interest in this subject. I have started shooting again on a limited basis after a good 16 years of not having the time to shoot. Please forgive me if I have missed something, but after seeing the topic come up more then a few times I have something I have to ask. As I read the rules for revolver you can shoot your 7 and 8 shot revolvers in the revolver class, you just have to reload after 6 shots. Where and how much do you figure the competitive disadvantage is in reloading after 6 shots? Does reloading after firing only 6 rounds on your 7-8 revolver actually put you at a disadvantage in the revolver class?

[underlug]

"This has already taken place in ICORE with the IRC. The IRC alone had 81 open shooters, 119 limited shooters and 32 classic shooters. Regional particapation in 2011 shows 23 open, 9 limited and 5 classic in the Rocky Mountain Region. 15 open, 47 limited and 18 classic in the Central States Region. 38 open, 53 limited and 19 classic in the Southwest Region. For a total of 157 open, 228 limited and 74 classic and you add these all together it comes to 459.

If USPSA could draw 10% of these contestants to any area matches or even nationals it would triple the particapation that is currently taking place now. The majority of the shooters from ICORE are from California and that shows from the particpation at the Southwest Regional but look at the numbers for the Central States and that drew shooter from all over. If we are to grow in numbers we need to expand and experiment. Not all change is good but you will never know if change is never tried."

There are just not that many shooters hanging out there shooting their revolvers in ICORE and not shooting USPSA to draw from. Many shoot in the other divisions with other guns. You are culling from a much smaller pool than you are assuming

Edited August 23, 2011 by underlug

[Bubber]

Pseudonym, the advantage is all dependant on stage design. If there is only one spot to engage the targets and there are more than 6 hits required and less than 9, with equal skilled shooters the advantage goes to the one that does not have to do a standing reload then move. Mostly this is at the local match setup but it has happpened at the higher level. The prevalent design is 8 shots then to a different array. A "Majic" number is 9 hits on an array then 9 hits on the next array. Each of the 6, 7, and 8 shot revos will have to do 2 reloads for the two arrays. However 9 hits required is illegal in USPSA and could get boring after a while. While some feel this will get into the arms race for revo (Buying the advantage) others want to inovate and try other stuff with revo. I would like to use my open revo but not at the detriment of the revo division. No way of really telling until it is tried. The challenge is this, at most matches there are only one maybe two revo shooters there. At the Old Fort Match in Fort Smith we had three shooters. Chris C. was going and I called another shooter (the other Roger) to bring our own competition to the match. With poor turnouts at the upper level matches it is hard to get recognition of the division much less a prize table to walk through. (Recognition is more important than the prize table, but we do pay the same match fees as everybody else.) A little long winded again. later rdd