USPSA Revolver Participation

[revoman]

Depending on how it looks in 3D after set up sometimes we are able to circumvent the standing reload by taking a target at a different location and lose one or two standiing reloads. Of course we usually talk this over in the squad to bounce the idea off several shooters so it is not realy gaming, unless you are on a different squad. Two weeks to Memphis. Later rdd

R u talking about me since I am on a different squad?

[hopalong]

Memphis Charity Challenge has a few standing reloads. It is a skill that MUST be tested !!!

UNLIKE most other "Revolver Friendly" matches (6 shot arrays) you'll find the stages at the MCC VERY revolver friendly......Too many options, how am I going to do this, when do I shoot that target ect. ect. and so on.

Bubber is a veteran of the MCC, listen to him.

Hop

[Bubber]

Depending on how it looks in 3D after set up sometimes we are able to circumvent the standing reload by taking a target at a different location and lose one or two standiing reloads. Of course we usually talk this over in the squad to bounce the idea off several shooters so it is not realy gaming, unless you are on a different squad. Two weeks to Memphis. Later rdd

R u talking about me since I am on a different squad?

Yep. You and Mister Homm.

[revoman]

Depending on how it looks in 3D after set up sometimes we are able to circumvent the standing reload by taking a target at a different location and lose one or two standiing reloads. Of course we usually talk this over in the squad to bounce the idea off several shooters so it is not realy gaming, unless you are on a different squad. Two weeks to Memphis. Later rdd

R u talking about me since I am on a different squad?

Yep. You and Mister Homm.

Now I can see Mister Homm gaming but me

[Carmoney]

To beat a dead horse, many here have brought this out and many choose to ignore it. Icore has 6 round friendly stages, USPSA stages are 8 round friendly. The six shot revolver would become obsolete over night. There is no way to make up both a hostile stage set up and the two round advantage.

I remember this exact same argument being made in Single Stack division: "The 8-shot major guns will never beat the 10-shot minor guns, and the 8-shot 1911s, made like God and John Moses Browning intended them to be, will become obsolete overnight." Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

It didn't happen.

Now I understand the differce between 6 v. 8 and 8 v. 10. And I suppose there still clubs around that set up a whole bunch of stupid stages with nothing but 8-shot arrays. But at matches with good freestyle stage design (e.g. most Level II matches and up), there are usually options that would allow the 6-shot major revolver to remain fully competitive, particularly for good shooters who have a fast reload and don't need a lot of make-up shots.

Don't underestimate the difference between major and minor scoring.

If 8-shot minor were allowed alongside 6-shot major, I would probably take both guns along and look at the stages before making a decision on which gun to use. It would all come down to stage design.

[underlug]

I hate standing reloads, it seems like that is the norm for USPSA matches if you shoot revolver, it's understandable because the matches are set up to be 8 round neutral it seems. But why would a revolver only match like Memphis have standing reloads in about every stage? It would be so much more fun with an 8 shot.

more fun? aka easier?

Revolver is harder. That is it's cache. Solving the problem different ways is a huge part of the revolver game (I don't believe I am saying this ...research my posts from 8 years ago re 8 shot arrays).

Avoiding, or minimizing the effects, of the standing reload IS the game.

[leas327]

I must be "that guy". I bought an 8 shot gun long before I ever fired a shot in competition. I bought it on a whim when I had some extra cash. I had no idea about competitive shooting or the different shooting games. I just thought an 8 shot revolver was cool. I think I might be the only guy that owns an 8 shot revolver that doesn't also own a 625.

I first started in I.D.P.A. and found out it is not allowed. No problem, I would just use my 1911. The other local games were pins and steel style shooting. I was using the 1911 for stock class in those so I put a c-more on the revolver and used it as my open gun as both of those games are neutral between autos v. Revolvers if you are getting hits. I checked once for an ICORE club around but no such luck.

I would love to shoot the 627 in revo class. I would put the rear sight back on in a heartbeat to do so.I have thought about shooting production but I want to compete not be looked at like a side show. I think I could hold my own against other c class shooters but if I ever shot enough 8 shot neutral classfiers to move up I would be crushed by the autos. I want to compete with the gun, not just show up and shoot it.

I don't want to count to six because that is slow. If you have time to think or count you are going too slow. I try to burn my stage plan into my brain, step up make ready and kick the program to auto pilot. Let the subconsious do its thing and only make adjustments if I have to.

The talk of it making other revos obsolete is lost on me. IMO the one gun people prefer for revo class is obsolete. The 5 inch 625 is king of the hill. Smith doesn't even make them any more so if you want one you have to track down a used one and pay a premium for it because everyone knows its the gun to get.

Smith seems to have hitched their wagon to IDPA so good luck getting them to make a gun for competition that doesn't conform to IDPA's rules. The 4 inch guns are nice but you give up a little velocity and get a little more recoil. Plus if you Carmonize the gun it is no longer legal for IDPA.

So for me to get started in revo I need a gun that is no longer made, a speed holster that cost $180, and a moon clip holder that is $130. All this added up doesn't sound like much of a beginners division to me.

I won single stack class at monthly match using a $25 holster and two $20 mag pouches and a gun you can get new for $700 at any gun store. Granted the division only had 7 shooters and the best was a c class shooter, but at the time I had no idea what that meant. I just knew my name was at the top. And it had 6 more shooters than the revo division had that day. It was enough to get me hooked and keep me coming back. That IMO is a good beginners division.

In summary I don't have any hard feelings toward anyone on this thread or on this forum. I just want to shoot my 627 in uspsa against other revo shooters. So I need a rule change and more revo shooters.

Edited October 23, 2011 by leas327

[Norther]

I don't want to count to six because that is slow. If you have time to think or count you are going too slow. I try to burn my stage plan into my brain, step up make ready and kick the program to auto pilot. Let the subconsious do its thing and only make adjustments if I have to.

The talk of it making other revos obsolete is lost on me. IMO the one gun people prefer for revo class is obsolete. The 5 inch 625 is king of the hill. Smith doesn't even make them any more so if you want one you have to track down a used one and pay a premium for it because everyone knows its the gun to get.

Smith seems to have hitched their wagon to IDPA so good luck getting them to make a gun for competition that doesn't conform to IDPA's rules. The 4 inch guns are nice but you give up a little velocity and get a little more recoil. Plus if you Carmonize the gun it is no longer legal for IDPA.

So for me to get started in revo I need a gun that is no longer made, a speed holster that cost $180, and a moon clip holder that is $130. All this added up doesn't sound like much of a beginners division to me.

I won single stack class at monthly match using a $25 holster and two $20 mag pouches and a gun you can get new for $700 at any gun store. Granted the division only had 7 shooters and the best was a c class shooter, but at the time I had no idea what that meant. I just knew my name was at the top. And it had 6 more shooters than the revo division had that day. It was enough to get me hooked and keep me coming back. That IMO is a good beginners division.

In summary I don't have any hard feelings toward anyone on this thread or on this forum. I just want to shoot my 627 in uspsa against other revo shooters. So I need a rule change and more revo shooters.

Counting to 6 makes no difference, because with an 8 shot you still need to count (to 8). Counting might be slow, but not as slow as an extra aim-n-click.

You're comparing apples to oranges. You say to compete you NEED a gun no longer made because it's the "gun to have", but then say you use a <$700 1911 in SS. I doubt your 1911 is the "gun to have" in SS (That's probably a Wilson or Nighthawk or Brown or...). All I'm saying is my thirdhand 4" 625JM is a blast to shoot. I rarely have other revolvers to compete against, but on short revolver-friendly stages I generally give all the other divisions a run for their money.

[underlug]

I don't want to count to six because that is slow. If you have time to think or count you are going too slow. I try to burn my stage plan into my brain, step up make ready and kick the program to auto pilot. Let the subconsious do its thing and only make adjustments if I have to.

The talk of it making other revos obsolete is lost on me. IMO the one gun people prefer for revo class is obsolete. The 5 inch 625 is king of the hill. Smith doesn't even make them any more so if you want one you have to track down a used one and pay a premium for it because everyone knows its the gun to get.

Smith seems to have hitched their wagon to IDPA so good luck getting them to make a gun for competition that doesn't conform to IDPA's rules. The 4 inch guns are nice but you give up a little velocity and get a little more recoil. Plus if you Carmonize the gun it is no longer legal for IDPA.

So for me to get started in revo I need a gun that is no longer made, a speed holster that cost $180, and a moon clip holder that is $130. All this added up doesn't sound like much of a beginners division to me.

I won single stack class at monthly match using a $25 holster and two $20 mag pouches and a gun you can get new for $700 at any gun store. Granted the division only had 7 shooters and the best was a c class shooter, but at the time I had no idea what that meant. I just knew my name was at the top. And it had 6 more shooters than the revo division had that day. It was enough to get me hooked and keep me coming back. That IMO is a good beginners division.

In summary I don't have any hard feelings toward anyone on this thread or on this forum. I just want to shoot my 627 in uspsa against other revo shooters. So I need a rule change and more revo shooters.

Counting to 6 makes no difference, because with an 8 shot you still need to count (to 8). Counting might be slow, but not as slow as an extra aim-n-click.

You're comparing apples to oranges. You say to compete you NEED a gun no longer made because it's the "gun to have", but then say you use a <$700 1911 in SS. I doubt your 1911 is the "gun to have" in SS (That's probably a Wilson or Nighthawk or Brown or...). All I'm saying is my thirdhand 4" 625JM is a blast to shoot. I rarely have other revolvers to compete against, but on short revolver-friendly stages I generally give all the other divisions a run for their money.

When you shoot a six shooter you better be counting to six or you will waste time with a "Click".

What I would like to see is a rule change that makes a 7th bang some form of procedural point penalty rather than a re-class to open division. No other change is necessary.

Shoot your 8 in revolver minor and count along with the rest of us.

[RevolverJockey]

Not a compelling argument at all, but if they allowed 8 shots I would go and buy one to shoot. It would also allow me a bit more competitive wheel for SC, but also to shoot in the same division with my girlfriend (production). I suppose I could already do that, but the more versatile, the more likely I will drop the $1,500 on a new setup. Production, Revolver Minor (and a backup as I don't have one), Limited Minor, Limited 10 Minor and Open Minor would make a 627 the most versatile gun you could buy for USPSA. Add in SC and ICORE and I might start browsing for one to buy today. If Major/Minor didn't hurt single stack, how could it hurt Revolver? Personal feelings aside of course - I don't understand single stack, didn't we already have that division (L10?) and I have never seen someone shooting minor in either division. My $.02.

Lee

[Norther]

I don't want to count to six because that is slow.

Counting to 6 makes no difference, because with an 8 shot you still need to count (to 8). Counting might be slow, but not as slow as an extra aim-n-click.

When you shoot a six shooter you better be counting to six or you will waste time with a "Click".

That's what I said, except it's no different with an 8-shooter. Still gotta count.

[leas327]

What I meant by not counting is coming up with a game plan and sticking to it. Planning the reloads, taking the time to aim, executing my plan.

What I mean about the single stack gun is that with that class you can walk into about any gun store and come out with the gun and gear that can compete. Same as going in and getting a production gun.

5 inch 1911's, glock's, and m&P's, are fairly common in the gun stores in my area. Smith has stopped making the most desirable gun for revo division. Without that gun being easily accessible the division will have a hard time growing. They still make the 8 shooters. I think they should let them in and score them minor.

[leas327]

I know I can buy a 625 JM and it probably won't make a difference to a new guy like me. But the time I shot in a squad with to revo shooters that were both M class they both had 5 inch guns. Both guns were set up pretty much the same and both guys said the 5 inch guns balanced better and had a little more sight radius. So I would be handicapping myself against shooters with more experience.

One even laughed talking about how smith makes a gun with Jerry's name on it and he doesn't even use that gun in uspsa. Like I said earlier Smith is in with IDPA. The 8 shooters aren't going away because they work well for steel and ICORE. Something needs done to try and get more shooters in the division. I would like to shoot it with an 8 shot gun and be punished for sloppy hits.

[underlug]

What I meant by not counting is coming up with a game plan and sticking to it. Planning the reloads, taking the time to aim, executing my plan.

What I mean about the single stack gun is that with that class you can walk into about any gun store and come out with the gun and gear that can compete. Same as going in and getting a production gun.

5 inch 1911's, glock's, and m&P's, are fairly common in the gun stores in my area. Smith has stopped making the most desirable gun for revo division. Without that gun being easily accessible the division will have a hard time growing. They still make the 8 shooters. I think they should let them in and score them minor.

They are "in". You just shoot 6 times and reload

[underlug]

I don't want to count to six because that is slow.

Counting to 6 makes no difference, because with an 8 shot you still need to count (to 8). Counting might be slow, but not as slow as an extra aim-n-click.

When you shoot a six shooter you better be counting to six or you will waste time with a "Click".

I wasn't disagreeing...with you

That's what I said, except it's no different with an 8-shooter. Still gotta count.

[leas327]

They still make the 8 shooters. I think they should let them in and score them minor.

They are "in". You just shoot 6 times and reload

"In" to me means being able to use all eight shots.

The eight shot guns are harder to reload and would be scored minor. Now you want me to only shoot six times to further handicap myself.

The way I voted in the poll is how I feel. The only way I would want to shoot it is using all eight. If I liked the division I would probably go through the trouble and expense to find a 625 so I had the option to shoot major. Much like a lot of hardcore SS guys having major and minor guns and shooting whichever one gives them an advantage.

As of now I am a guy that likes to shoot revolvers but don't feel my gun has a "legit" place in the division.

Edited October 23, 2011 by leas327

[underlug]

They still make the 8 shooters. I think they should let them in and score them minor.

They are "in". You just shoot 6 times and reload

"In" to me means being able to use all eight shots.

The eight shot guns are harder to reload and would be scored minor. Now you want me to only shoot six times to further handicap myself.

The way I voted in the poll is how I feel. The only way I would want to shoot it is using all eight. If I liked the division I would probably go through the trouble and expense to find a 625 so I had the option to shoot major. Much like a lot of hardcore SS guys having major and minor guns and shooting whichever one gives them an advantage.

As of now I am a guy that likes to shoot revolvers but don't feel my gun has a "legit" place in the division.

So the only way you will try out the division and see if you like it is if the rules are changed for everyone else? Why not try it shooting 6 and see if you like it?

Carrying 8 already gives you the advantage if you short stroke or have a bad primer you can just continue forward to fire your six without going through the cylinder again. Enjoy that.

The reloading time difference between a 45 and 8 shot .38 is minimal, especially during a field course. It is no real handicap

Edited October 23, 2011 by underlug

[underlug]

To beat a dead horse, many here have brought this out and many choose to ignore it. Icore has 6 round friendly stages, USPSA stages are 8 round friendly. The six shot revolver would become obsolete over night. There is no way to make up both a hostile stage set up and the two round advantage.

I remember this exact same argument being made in Single Stack division: "The 8-shot major guns will never beat the 10-shot minor guns, and the 8-shot 1911s, made like God and John Moses Browning intended them to be, will become obsolete overnight." Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

It didn't happen.

Now I understand the differce between 6 v. 8 and 8 v. 10. And I suppose there still clubs around that set up a whole bunch of stupid stages with nothing but 8-shot arrays. But at matches with good freestyle stage design (e.g. most Level II matches and up), there are usually options that would allow the 6-shot major revolver to remain fully competitive, particularly for good shooters who have a fast reload and don't need a lot of make-up shots.

Don't underestimate the difference between major and minor scoring.

If 8-shot minor were allowed alongside 6-shot major, I would probably take both guns along and look at the stages before making a decision on which gun to use. It would all come down to stage design.

A huge percentage of revolver shooters will not shoot Level 2 and above matches. They will be shooting local matches on their limited sized ranges with 8 shot arrays dominating to get the round count up.

Good course design can always minimize the reloading advantage if it is the goal. Unfortunately, local matches are usually not designed with that, or revolver shooters, in mind

[Norther]

<"As of now I am a guy that likes to shoot revolvers but don't feel my gun has a "legit" place in the division.">

You know, when this poll first started I voted to leave things as they are. But it's true, that 8 shooters really don't fit anywhere, and all handguns should fit somewhere. Revolver division is clearly the place for them. On second thought, I'd go for including them scored minor.

I don't agree that a current-edition 625 4" is not competitive at the level most of us are at. Maybe at M and GM, but not for most of us. Look at Limited. There's no real consensus on 5" versus 6".

[underlug]

<"As of now I am a guy that likes to shoot revolvers but don't feel my gun has a "legit" place in the division.">

You know, when this poll first started I voted to leave things as they are. But it's true, that 8 shooters really don't fit anywhere, and all handguns should fit somewhere. Revolver division is clearly the place for them. On second thought, I'd go for including them scored minor.

I don't agree that a current-edition 625 4" is not competitive at the level most of us are at. Maybe at M and GM, but not for most of us. Look at Limited. There's no real consensus on 5" versus 6".

Which gives them an insurmountable advantage over the 6 shot minor shooters. The division was created as a starting place for those who had grandpa"s revolver and needed a place to shoot it to get them started (so they would eventually buy an SVI). Now, the 6 shot minor guns will not fit. Do you really think the number of new 8 shot shooters will replace the lost 6 shot minor shooters? An $800 dollar entry gun?

This is my last post (did I say that before?). USPSA is fine the way it is. The only thing we need to change is the death penalty for firing the 7th shot (trip to open). Make it a procedural. It will be fun doing, or watching someone do, the calculation of whether to take the 7th shot or make the reload or just let it go.

With revolver we have the ultimate strategy game with 6 shots. If you want the opportunity to shoot cleanly through if you make no mistakes, shoot single stack. If you want a little cushion, shoot production or limited 10. If you just want to rip through the course, shoot limited or open. Don't fix what is not broken

[bdpaz]

USPSA is fine the way it is.

Don't fix what is not broken

USPSA Revolver Nationals. 2011: 21 competitors. 2010: 22 competitors.

Rio Salado Monthly ICORE matches. October 2011: 34 competitors. September 2011: 31 competitors. August 2011: 22 competitors. July 2011: 29 competitors.

Are you sure that the current USPSA revolver rules are the best they can be?

[Norther]

Do you really think the number of new 8 shot shooters will replace the lost 6 shot minor shooters? An $800 dollar entry gun?

If they were buying an entry gun, it would be a $600 secondhand 625. Or shoot that six shot .357 with magnums to make major, not .38 minor.

I'm not really firm on this, but I hate the idea of a gun not really having a place. Obviously, there's not really a good answer. I have enough of a hard time counting to 6; if I got a procedural instead of a click as a result of a miscount, you can bet I'd go back to singe stack and forget revolver.

[Carmoney]

USPSA is fine the way it is.

Don't fix what is not broken

USPSA Revolver Nationals. 2011: 21 competitors. 2010: 22 competitors.

Rio Salado Monthly ICORE matches. October 2011: 34 competitors. September 2011: 31 competitors. August 2011: 22 competitors. July 2011: 29 competitors.

Are you sure that the current USPSA revolver rules are the best they can be?

ICORE participation in most parts of the country: 0 competitors.

Don't get me wrong--I love shooting ICORE matches, but there are only a few hot spots in the country where the game has taken off.

[ChrisC]

They need to do what they can to increase revolver numbers as a whole and not divide the ones they have. as far as the big matches the revo prise table is usually filled with junk revo shooters can't use. introducing 8 shots might be the wave and it might not but you won't know unless they try.

[Bones]

We had 41 competitors at the ICORE New England Regional Championships yesterday including competitors from MA, CT, NY, NH, NV, CA, PA, 2 GMs and one Super Hero from Gotham City. Thanks to John Major and the crew for another great match.

There are more 6 shot K and L frames in people's safes and gun cabinets than 627s or 625s - a lot more. Without a competitive way for them to participate in a sport, it is doomed (i.e the addition of Production and Single Stack) .

Given that, ICORE is probably the last best hope for revolvers in my opinion.

Craig

Edited October 24, 2011 by Bones