USPSA Revolver Participation

[JFlowers]

This is my opinion, but one I am willing to back up with work...

We have the MCC 2012 coming in 12 months. I think we can use it as a platform to both test and highlight some of these concepts. No real need for rule changes or BOD changes. I can think of a couple of items...

1) More publicity. Many of us shoot multiple disciplines. We need to actively recruit for this match. Get the IDPA and ICORE wheelgunners coming in. Maybe some type of internal contest for recruitment. Maybe approach ICORE and other disciplines about publishing the match. Try to make MCC what the Florida Open is for the bottom feeders and get the international IPSC Revo shooters to come in.

2) Make the match multiple divisions. You can declare X division, but you have to shoot a wheelgun. So 8-shots (Limited?) and Open Revos (Open) have a place. Production for the J-frames? Then see if we can recruit/fill those divisions. If this works we have a case to feed to the BOD, if its doesn't then we know that opening up for these guns does not buy us anything.

3) We tried this year to setup a class considering how rare a Competitive Revolver class is. Logistics bit us, but now we have 12 months and I think we can do it. Matt/Cliff - either of you willing?

4) Find ways to open the door and get the other manufacturers involved... Ruger, Taraus, and Chipewa. Show them that there are people shooting their guns in competition.

We keep hinting and talking about making MCC the USPSA Revolver Nationals. That means a huge addition to the commitment Hopalong already puts forth... more stages, more props, more work. But we need to continue to show USPSA we can not only sustain the match, but make it grow. I know I am a lousy one to talk. Work has bit me again this year.

[moverfive]

As I read through all of these posts, all of the conversations I have had with Sam concerning his MCC match keep coming back into play.

I can see a lot of good ideas in this thread that could potentially make revolver more appealing to a greater audience; however, that is all they are today - just ideas.

If you look at the historical participation in revolver division, most won't see a whole lot that tells you there is realistic chance for significant growth. And the large part of that reason is because more people find that shooting the automatics is more fun and fitting to our sport. Now that doesn't mean there aren't many that wouldn't shoot revolver or find it fun to do so in some matches. It just means that given the cost of this sport, most folks only have resources available to shoot one division properly......and so they are going to put that money and effort into one division in which they perceive to be the most fun. So where is the incentive for USPSA to overhaul the revolver division?

Addressing those issues is the underlying reasons for Sam's MCC match. His first two goals is to (1) offer a match to expose as many as possible to the division and (2) to show USPSA that there is a much larger crowd that is willing to shoot revolver if given a realistic opportunity (meaning - like SS, let's take away the direct competition against open, limited, and production).

Sam's match has been drawing numbers in the upper-60's the past few years (with this year getting very close to 75 shooters). Yes 75% of these folks probably will not shoot revolver much outside of this match. But we are exposing those 75% to this division and given the numbers, they enjoy shooting the match! Next Sam wants this match to be the US Nationals for revolvers and thus provide a realistic opportunity for many to really shoot revolver, similar to how the SS Nationals exists today. Without the SS Nationals, how many folks (including some of the "named-shooters") would seriously shoot SS?

If we can show USPSA that there is a solid following for the revolver division, this will open the door for allowing a separate Revolver Nationals and potentially encourage some rule changes in order to help maximize its participation. So for those that are really serious about revolver, maximize what you do have (as opposed to a lot of wishful thinking) and that means continuing to support Sam's efforts with the MCC. Even if you cannot attend the match, you can support it by buying raffle tickets (as part of his sales pitch to USPSA will be the level of support we are giving to Le Bonheur). And then when the time comes, contact the entire BOD to support the creation of a separate Revolver Nationals. If we can make all of that happen, then many of these rule changes/ideas will be taken a little more seriously.

.....and no, none of that was a sales pitch for raffle tickets.

[Matt Griffin]

Where there is an organized competitive structure with both ICORE and USPSA, the number or revolver competitors by numerical comparison is just to far apart to not suggest there is a miss in USPSA revolver division. And the only real difference between the two, are the exculsionary and penalty rules in USPSA for all revolvers. If this were a business, how would it make sense to not try to expand your customer base vs. risking what appears to be a closing of the doors. Nothing ventured, nothing gained and what do we have to loose that can't be regained if it doesn't pan out.

This sums up my feelings precisely. I wish I had said it!

I think the main reason is that it's damn difficult to shoot those games with a revo. Seems to me like making it easier and more fun is the way to attract more shooters. Shooting USPSA with an 8-shot 627 and minor P.F. ammo would be easier and more fun--for most people anyway.

Strike out easier and you have my feelings - more fun with an 8 shot. I don't have any problems with standing reloads but shooting 6, reloading to shoot 2, then reloading again while moving to another position is too choppy and just isn't fun. I shot a monster match a few years ago with 40 to 50 round stages using my 625 and had a great time, and there were more than a few standing reloads. But a normal USPA match doesn't flow for me with a 6 shot revolver.

Subsequently all the current top shooters will have to pay thousands of dollars to stay competitive in order to increase participation by what, ten shooters? Why are we saving ten fairweather shooters from having to pay for a $150 moonclip job on their current guns and instead making the ten top shooters buy two 627s, optics, dies, brass, bullets, comps, holders, and holsters?

I don't know how to keep this from sounding spiteful, but if instead of ten new shooters there is a chance for 20 or 30 or more, it doesn't matter how it affects the top ten shooters. This isn't a spectator sport - matches depend on participants for income. Imagine if the other divisions appealed to only the top 10 or 20 shooters. What kind of Nationals would we have with 30 to 40 shooters at Limited/Production and 50 to 60 at Open/L10/Revo. It is the mid pack shooters who make these matches happen. Of course, having said that, I realize the other divisions have the big numbers so the big matches will happen and Revolver can continue to tag along so that argument really doesn't matter.

After having written all this, I have to admit that I don't really care if things change or not. I would like to shoot an 8 shot revolver in USPSA but I have monthly ICORE and weekly steel matches where I shoot it now, and I have plenty of other pistols for USPSA. So now it's time for something that really matters - off to walk the dogs.

I appreciate your points, but let me ask you this: are major matches hurting for competitors? No, they are not. Every Area, National, and World match is completely full so the revolver contingent is representative of the desires of the entire community. Overhauling the division to try and attract a few shooters from ICORE (and it would only be the ICORE 8 round shooters since the IDPA shooters would come in with SSR guns and still be at a disadvantage) would yield a handful at best.

As to stage design, which is it? Do we not have a lot of 8 shot arrays so it isn't a big deal as Mike contends, or do we have a bunch of standing reloads so it is a big deal as you contend for your personal preference of "flow?" The folks arguing from the 8 shot side are trying to have their cake and eat it, too.

Based on my experience standing reloads are rare at major matches but common at local matches. I also don't understand why a standing reload matters at all provided it is necessary for all competitors.

Matt

[Carmoney]

You want to really get people fired up about next year's Memphis match and create a real launching platform for it to become a stand-alone Nationals?

I'll tell you exactly how to do it......(brace yourselves)......eliminate the charity aspect to the match and put the entry money back into the prize table.

You want to guarantee that Jerry Miculek shows up? You want guys like Rob Leatham and Taran Butler to fly in? How about world champion Ricky Lopez and all the revo guys from Europe? Give them something to shoot for. Announce way ahead of time that first place pays $3,000 cash, top ten finishers get cash prizes, that gun prizes will be awarded to all class winners, put up cash bounties for stage wins, offer side matches with real prizes, etc.

Make it a REAL event like the IRC and the Steel Challenge and the old Second Chance pin matches. Publicize the match early, and stand back and watch about 200-300 shooters sign up.

(Frankly, this is what USPSA should do for its national championships in all divisions. What they do now is total horseshit and we all know it.)

[lora]

You want to really get people fired up about next year's Memphis match and create a real launching platform for it to become a stand-alone Nationals?

I'll tell you exactly how to do it......(brace yourselves)......eliminate the charity aspect to the match and put the entry money back into the prize table.

You want to guarantee that Jerry Miculek shows up? You want guys like Rob Leatham and Taran Butler to fly in? How about world champion Ricky Lopez and all the revo guys from Europe? Give them something to shoot for. Announce way ahead of time that first place pays $3,000 cash, top ten finishers get cash prizes, that gun prizes will be awarded to all class winners, put up cash bounties for stage wins, offer side matches with real prizes, etc.

Make it a REAL event like the IRC and the Steel Challenge and the old Second Chance pin matches. Publicize the match early, and stand back and watch about 200-300 shooters sign up.

(Frankly, this is what USPSA should do for its national championships in all divisions. What they do now is total horseshit and we all know it.)

Not the Politically Correct thing to say, but you are spot on. That is reality.

And just how difficult is it for USPSA to make minor admin. only changes. Is it really that complicated. Seems like just a little computer work and you have the sub groups of revolvers and it done. If ICORE had the organization of USPSA nationally I think all would be surprised of the real participation rate.

Edited October 26, 2011 by lora

[Bubber]

You want to really get people fired up about next year's Memphis match and create a real launching platform for it to become a stand-alone Nationals?

I'll tell you exactly how to do it......(brace yourselves)......eliminate the charity aspect to the match and put the entry money back into the prize table.

You want to guarantee that Jerry Miculek shows up? You want guys like Rob Leatham and Taran Butler to fly in? How about world champion Ricky Lopez and all the revo guys from Europe? Give them something to shoot for. Announce way ahead of time that first place pays $3,000 cash, top ten finishers get cash prizes, that gun prizes will be awarded to all class winners, put up cash bounties for stage wins, offer side matches with real prizes, etc.

Make it a REAL event like the IRC and the Steel Challenge and the old Second Chance pin matches. Publicize the match early, and stand back and watch about 200-300 shooters sign up.

(Frankly, this is what USPSA should do for its national championships in all divisions. What they do now is total horseshit and we all know it.)

Not the Politically Correct thing to say, but you are spot on. That is reality.

And just how difficult is it for USPSA to make minor admin. only changes. Is it really that complicated. Seems like just a little computer work and you have the sub groups of revolvers and it done. If ICORE had the organization of USPSA nationally I think all would be surprised of the real participation rate.

I thought the whole purpose was to get more revo shooters in USPSA, not make another division or sub division of the Revo group. I could go on but much of it had been covered in earlier posts. later rdd

[Bosshoss]

I just returned to competitive shooting after a 14 year break. Thing have changed a lot but some thing havent changed at all, like how to get more people to shoot ect. This is just some thoughts that I would like to see discussed.

Since revolver class is pretty much a 625 5 class I wonder if they made revolver class minor PF and moonclipped guns would be scored minor and speed loader guns scored major even though they are shooting minor PF this would help even out the moonclipped guns advantage in speed of reloading. This would open it up to a lot of shooters that have revolvers laying around that arent moonclip guns with out buying a no longer made 625 5.

Having just purchased a 8 shot 627 Im not sure what class Im going to shoot it in. Revolver and only shoot six or open with a optic or maybe production, still thinking about all this. Since I quit shooting years ago and now were bifocals I am having a tough time adapting back to iron sights.

I think it would be a blast to shoot the 8 shot with a optic, shooting minor in Production. I know the optic would be a sticking point but the bottom feeders have 11 rounds vs. 8 in the revolver. Auto are faster to reload and have better and quicker triggers. On a side note I handled a M&P production gun that a master class shooter shoots at a local match it had a 1.5 lb trigger and short reset felt like a great 1911 trigger. A revolver would never be able to have split times as fast as that gun with most shooter at least.

I read some posts about stage design making a revolvers disadvantage less by making six shot target arrays instead of 8 shot arrays. I know it wouldnt be practical but I would like to see a match with 12 shot target arrays it would be interesting to see what happens and how much more competitive a revolver (6 or 8 shots) would be when EVERYONE except open and limited class has to do standing reloads.

Just some thoughts I have been thinking over after reading some of the post in this thread.

Oh yea I have been having a lot of fun being back at the shoots. I missed it.

Hoping to make some bigger matches next year, and trysome Icore, SC, and Uspsa, and MCC.

Edited October 27, 2011 by Bosshoss

[Matt Griffin]

Bosshoss, you make some good suggestions there. I would point out that USPSA revolver is simply a moonclipped class, not a 5" 625 class. Josh Lentz shoots .40, Sascha Beck shoots .38, both are major. Really the only requirement is to have the faster reload a moonclip affords.

Matt

[Bosshoss]

Matt I realize that their are some exceptions but so far most everything I have seen local has been 625's, and one guy shooting a 686 with speedloaders.

Actually we are neighbors I live in southern In. by Patoka Lake, about an hour from you. I have been shooting at Southcenteral and Silver Creek in IN. and Owensboro in KY.Do you shoot at these clubs? We will have to look each other up at the matches. Where do you shoot and what(ICORE,SC,USPSA)?

Bosshoss, you make some good suggestions there. I would point out that USPSA revolver is simply a moonclipped class, not a 5" 625 class. Josh Lentz shoots .40, Sascha Beck shoots .38, both are major. Really the only requirement is to have the faster reload a moonclip affords.

Matt

Edited October 27, 2011 by Bosshoss

[hopalong]

The title of this thread is USPSA REVOLVER Participation

There is not a USPSA match in the us or the WORLD that has more participation than the Memphis Charity Challenge (the world shoot this year had 43 revolvers).

It is doing EXACTLY what it is meant to do.

Making the MCC a USPSA National match would do several things for USPSA.

Bring more shooters to the National Championship.

Bring more shooters to the Memphis Charity Challenge....making it a better Charity for LeBohneur

Add 20 ish spots at the National Championship where Revolver vacated for more shooters of the divisions offered.

Give USPSA more activity and classifier funds from the revolver division.....maybe even getting some of the HIT FACTORS more on scale to where they should be.

ONLY PLUS points for both USPSA and the Memphis Charity Challenge.

Some things the Memphis Charity Challenge wont be/do:

Drop the Charity aspect......We are doing a good thing for others, while increasing Revolver Participation at a USPSA match.....Fullfilling some of the goals for the match. The Memphis Sport Shooting Assn (Range) allows us(MCC) to host the match for FREE !!!! as long as the match gives to a Charity (Thus the MCC)

Known for the Prize table......I do the prize table on my spare time and for the last 3 months have been working my normal job and then some. The prize table is not a priority, and may easily go away unless somebody else wants to take that project on.

It is my hope that the Memphis Charity Challenge can become the USPSA National Championship for Revolver division just to show others that it would be well attended, by not just the normal revolver crowd but the same people we attracting now...the sometimes revolver people. If that works great...if not...too bad.

If the Memphis Charity Challenge does become the Stand alone nationals and some people think that it(Nationals) needs a KICK ASS prize table (Haven't seen a kick ass prize table at any USPSA MATCH nationals or otherwise since I've started shooting USPSA except at some OUTLAW 3-gun matches) Someone can take on that project and be the ramrod of that match, The MCC will continue on as a Charity match and I won't have to bother with a prize table at all.

IF somebody wants to try the minor 8 shot guns vs major 6 please go right ahead, organize it, make it 10 stages, promote it as a test bed..promote it for a year ahead of time so anybody thinking about attending can schedule it with plenty of time and have at it....I'll be there with my 6" 646 shooting Major (Notice NOT a 5" 625...although I do have some of them too) trying very hard to kick the SH!t out of the 8 shot minor guns.

There is a very nice range in Oklahoma that I shot at this summer, really close to Bubber and company that could easily fit this match.......Hint Hint Hint. Give it a try....quit talking about it and DO it !!!!!!

Like I did with the Memphis Charity Challenge.

(Which upped the Revolver Participation more than all the Area matches combined)

Hopalong

[Bones]

I hate to keep beating this drum, but the reality is that there are many times more 6 shot non- moonclipped revolvers in this country than all moonclipped ones combined. Until we accommodate them, we will continue to talk to ourselves.

Given USPSA stage designs, it is already a long row to hoe. Make specialized equipment a requirement and it only gets worse. Moon clipped revolvers are the exception, not the rule. And revolvers are a small population to begin with. The math simply doesn't work without including them. IDPA and ICORE ( and MCC) have already figured that out.

[Flexmoney]

IDPA and ICORE ( and MCC) have already figured that out.

For games?

We still have DVC and our practical roots to consider. I don't hope to abandon them in favor of a few more shooters.

And, it might be good to note at this point that all of these guns work for Steel Challenge. Steel Challenge is more popular than ICORE. And, the matches are super easy to setup and run.

[eak]

Thanks for that post Hop, all true and thanks for putting on the Mcc!!! See you in about a week.

[Matt Griffin]

I hate to keep beating this drum, but the reality is that there are many times more 6 shot non- moonclipped revolvers in this country than all moonclipped ones combined. Until we accommodate them, we will continue to talk to ourselves.

Given USPSA stage designs, it is already a long row to hoe. Make specialized equipment a requirement and it only gets worse. Moon clipped revolvers are the exception, not the rule. And revolvers are a small population to begin with. The math simply doesn't work without including them. IDPA and ICORE ( and MCC) have already figured that out.

I'm fine with a new category, I just don't want to see 8-shot guns invalidate 6-shot guns.

Matt

[RevolverJockey]

I hate to keep beating this drum, but the reality is that there are many times more 6 shot non- moonclipped revolvers in this country than all moonclipped ones combined. Until we accommodate them, we will continue to talk to ourselves.

Given USPSA stage designs, it is already a long row to hoe. Make specialized equipment a requirement and it only gets worse. Moon clipped revolvers are the exception, not the rule. And revolvers are a small population to begin with. The math simply doesn't work without including them. IDPA and ICORE ( and MCC) have already figured that out.

I'm fine with a new category, I just don't want to see 8-shot guns invalidate 6-shot guns.

Matt

Matt,

Are we sure this a good idea? The biggest reason I went to revolver was being too lazy to pick up brass. I even got a telescopic magnetic pickup tool so I wouldn't have to even bend over to pick up the clips.

Lee