USPSA Revolver Participation

[D.carden]

Ok, i'll put a horse in the race....!!!

I voted NO.........!!!! Same shooter running both guns, with everything being equal (draw,splits,reload,points) on a 8shot x 3array stage (24rnds / 120pts, this can be a common stage at the local level).

The 8 shot has an 11% advantage. The 2sec for the added reload for the six shooter tipped the scale.

Granted, a Major match will pose a different out come with different skill-sets, more elaborate stage designs, strategies between shooters, but it looks as though the 8shooter will prevail. This can lead to an all-out 8shot divison....That, i dont want to see..!!!!!

Remove the nuetral part (if it applies) and hit what your aiming at the first time. A make-up shot that forces an added UN-planned reload or short stroke of the trigger is the ultimate stage killer. Everyone gets there share of disasters, it's just a matter of who does it the least without sacraficing speed........That, my friends, is what makes the Revo division so sweet.

Keep it as is.....!!!

Edited August 24, 2011 by D.carden

[Bill Nesbitt]

This might be apples and oranges, but when IDPA split up the revolvers into 2 divisions, participation actually went down. Some people left IDPA and haven't been back.

[moverfive]

I think we can argue till we are blue in the face, but will never know for sure, create a provisional division, let revolver be 6 shot max for major 8 shot max for minor and see how the scores pan out.

I agree.

Some of you might be surprised to hear I voted to allow the 7- and 8-shot minor option. I think it would be very interesting to give it a try, and it might be just the thing to help re-invigorate the division.

The other thing that would make a real difference is a stand-alone USPSA Revolver Nationals with a real prize table.

What a coincidence.....we have a match with a range, a match director, and the overall desire to become just that type of match. And if you want, you may shoot it in Memphis November 4-5 - the Memphis Charity Challenge.

[Carmoney]

You're talking about the Penkala Charity Classic, correct?

[GMM50]

I voted no. At one time I would have voted yes but I'm think leave well enough alone.

Revolver shooters are the best. A wonderful group of individuals to say the least.

I believe ICORE has the stages that make for a great Revolver match. They are for the most part 6 round neutral. If you're shooting plates or paper and missing then the extra rounds would help but you're not going to win that stage.

We recently shot Walls of Steel. Very similar in format to PSA Shootout. In WoS there are 2 Revolver divisions. Plain Revolver and a scope or comp puts you in Revolver Open. Here's the entry count.....111 Auto 32 Auto Open 19 Revolver and 13 Revolver Open. 8 Shot revolvers have a clear advantage in this format. 6 stages of 30 +/- knock down steel.

Next year I'm sponsoring new Revolver categories with cash prizes. So far we've got 6 Shooter, Speed Loader, Senior, Junior, Lady and maybe Snubby.

We'll see how many more shooters we add. I bet not many and that's the problem. Everyone owns a Revolver but not many compete with one.

gm

[professor]

Bubber I am clear on that, my communication skills are letting me down again. Here is what I am getting at, as I read the rules, 7 and 8 shot revolvers are legal in revolver class,they must however reload after firing 6 rounds. Are the people with 7 and 8 shot revolvers at a competitive disadvantage having to make a reload with 2 live rounds unfired? Hopefully that is more clear. If so how are they at a disadvantage?

The 7 and 8 shots are not at a disadvantage, they would just like to use their revos to the fullest. Right now if you fire the 7th shot it is a trip to open, if there is an open division to shoot in. If not...I need to RFM to see what it says, I forgot. later rdd

We could attack this with the firing of a 7 and/or 8th shot a trip to procedural land or some other penalty rather than openville. 6 shooters are counting to 6 to avoid the click

Right now, the penalty for shooting that extra round with a 7 or 8 shot is essentially a death sentence to a revo shooter, re placing in a major match. In an Area match, you go from maybe 1 of 10 shooters into Open, competing against 100 to 200 shooters, with vastly inferior fire power. In the Nationals, this year you go to Open and compete there. Last year, you would be SOL because Revolver Division was in a match with Limited and Production.

And it's never that cut and dried that you can 'just count to six' during the heat of battle. It's not the paper targets, but the steel interspersed with the paper targets that will get most shooters in trouble. Miss on steel and you have to make up the shot, and keep track of that extra shot, because it can throw off your plan for the rest of the stage. Toss in the occasional hard cover hit that you see in time to make up, and the complexity increases.

The benefits of 7 or 8 scored minor have been underestimated. Granted, everyone realizes the availability of that extra shot or two on arrays requiring more than 6 shots. Where an activator steel is thrown in to an array with 3 paper, you've got the rounds to complete the array without a reload. What hasn't been mentioned is the availability of the extra shots when there are just 6 rounds required at a shooting location. You can crank up the speed with the knowledge that a miss or hard cover hit can be made up without the necessity of a reload to do so. At one National I attended, they introduced three steel speed shoots. ONLY six shots required. I had a miss on each of the first two stages, doing my best to get them all, but failing. On the third stage, I nailed them all, and had the second best time on the stage, losing only to Jerry. Had there been an extra round available, all three stages could have been within 0.3 seconds of that same elapsed time.

Whether the change goes in to allow 7 or 8 minor without penalty, or even with a procedural for the extra shots, I'll be in line to get a couple of 8 shot revolvers and go back to making 38 Spl bunny fart loads instead of 45 ACP major.

Edited August 24, 2011 by professor

[underlug]

Bubber I am clear on that, my communication skills are letting me down again. Here is what I am getting at, as I read the rules, 7 and 8 shot revolvers are legal in revolver class,they must however reload after firing 6 rounds. Are the people with 7 and 8 shot revolvers at a competitive disadvantage having to make a reload with 2 live rounds unfired? Hopefully that is more clear. If so how are they at a disadvantage?

The 7 and 8 shots are not at a disadvantage, they would just like to use their revos to the fullest. Right now if you fire the 7th shot it is a trip to open, if there is an open division to shoot in. If not...I need to RFM to see what it says, I forgot. later rdd

We could attack this with the firing of a 7 and/or 8th shot a trip to procedural land or some other penalty rather than openville. 6 shooters are counting to 6 to avoid the click

Right now, the penalty for shooting that extra round with a 7 or 8 shot is essentially a death sentence to a revo shooter, re placing in a major match. In an Area match, you go from maybe 1 of 10 shooters into Open, competing against 100 to 200 shooters, with vastly inferior fire power. In the Nationals, this year you go to Open and compete there. Last year, you would be SOL because Revolver Division was in a match with Limited and Production.

And it's never that cut and dried that you can 'just count to six' during the heat of battle. It's not the paper targets, but the steel interspersed with the paper targets that will get most shooters in trouble. Miss on steel and you have to make up the shot, and keep track of that extra shot, because it can throw off your plan for the rest of the stage. Toss in the occasional hard cover hit that you see in time to make up, and the complexity increases.

The benefits of 7 or 8 scored minor have been underestimated. Granted, everyone realizes the availability of that extra shot or two on arrays requiring more than 6 shots. Where an activator steel is thrown in to an array with 3 paper, you've got the rounds to complete the array without a reload. What hasn't been mentioned is the availability of the extra shots when there are just 6 rounds required at a shooting location. You can crank up the speed with the knowledge that a miss or hard cover hit can be made up without the necessity of a reload to do so. At one National I attended, they introduced three steel speed shoots. ONLY six shots required. I had a miss on each of the first two stages, doing my best to get them all, but failing. On the third stage, I nailed them all, and had the second best time on the stage, losing only to Jerry. Had there been an extra round available, all three stages could have been within 0.3 seconds of that same elapsed time.

Whether the change goes in to allow 7 or 8 minor without penalty, or even with a procedural for the extra shots, I'll be in line to get a couple of 8 shot revolvers and go back to making 38 Spl bunny fart loads instead of 45 ACP major.

A procedural penalty could pose an interesting question to a 7 or 8 shot revolver on a fast stage. Do I take the miss, do the reload, or, take the procedural? That could be fun

Edited August 25, 2011 by underlug

[Jerry V]

This whole topic of allowing 8 shots into Revolver Div comes down to the standing reload . There are those who are intimidated by it and want a level playing field......get over it, Revolver Div is all UPHILL !!! That's part of the fun -- keep it that way !!!

Plus it keeps the weak of heart from polluting the gene pool of the Division

Revolver Division gives those of us who prefer the revolver platform a place to play in USPSA despite the challenges. In fact, most of the wheelgunners I've shot with, embrace those challenges -- A Breed Apart

[bdpaz]

This whole topic of allowing 8 shots into Revolver Div comes down to the standing reload .

Not for me. I have shot USPSA matches with semi autos in Limited, Production and Single Stack and with a 625 in Revolver and with a 627 w/red dot in Open. The only ones that weren't fun were Revo with the 6 shot gun. I have shot high round count stages with the single stack and with the 627 and have no problem with standing reloads. I've also done plenty of standing reloads trying to go too fast with the 625 in ICORE and I still enjoy those matches. But USPSA, with the 8 shot array structure, just doesn't flow well for me.

Edited August 25, 2011 by bdpaz

[10mmdave]

as stated before....this discussion is about adding shooters to revo division

not belittling those that might want to participate differently.

[jhgtyre]

as stated before....this discussion is about adding shooters to revo division

not belittling those that might want to participate differently.

I think we might have a little good natured, maybe a bit overzealous, but good natured, banter going on. With this crowd we can almost assure it degrades from here but I bet we can stay on topic.

-ld

[Bubber]

Well, Just got the go ahead for the experiment from the MD at OKC. This next month most of the Revo guys will be at Area 4 so we will hit it first Sat in Oct and go from there. So if you are a Revo shooter in Ok or surrounding area, or if you have a plane, make the Oct match with your 6, 7, or 8 shot and give it a whirl. (couldn't make myself say give it a spin) Later rdd

[No.343]

I think that using the OKCGC as a test bed has very good potential. The stages there are normally well designed. A six shooter can often minimize the number of standing reloads. It will be interesting.

[jhgtyre]

Well, Just got the go ahead for the experiment from the MD at OKC. This next month most of the Revo guys will be at Area 4 so we will hit it first Sat in Oct and go from there. So if you are a Revo shooter in Ok or surrounding area, or if you have a plane, make the Oct match with your 6, 7, or 8 shot and give it a whirl. (couldn't make myself say give it a spin) Later rdd

Nice work Bubber. This should be really interesting.

-ld

[buckaroo45]

+1 to Jerry V. Revo is what it is and I for one wouldn't like to see it changed. I shoot my 625's in USPSA and my 627's in Steel Challenge. Ya wanna shoot an 8 holer then go to Steel.

Ron

[colt]

I shot the ICORE Wheelguns Revenge that had 75+ shooters. 2 weeks later and about 1.5 hours from that club we held the USPSA Indiana State match. I seen most of the shooters from the ICORE match at the State match but they were not shooting Revolver. We had 13 revolver shooters at the USPSA match

Some how I don't think 2 round will change the participation out come much.

I don't own a 8 shoot, 7 shot yes.

Brent

Edited August 26, 2011 by colt

[West Texas Granny]

We allow SS to have 10 shots instead of 8 if scored minor so why not the same for Revo?

Score A zone hit as 4 points instead of 5 and maybe just maybe I would consider it. Shooting minor is a significant advantage but I know it won't change.

[Jerry V]

"not belittling those that might want to participate differently"

Dave, my intentions was not to belittle anyone, but to point out a fact. The Number 1 comment I get at a match is about reloads especially standing reloads and never in a positive way. But then, most don't understand why we'd choose a wheelgun over a auto anyway.

If you want to have a chance to increase participation, it's about attitude. Don't be negitive or whine about the stages, take on the challenge, improve your skills and as you place higher it will get others attention -- especially if you look like your having fun......which it is.

Changing the rules away from 6 shot only to accomadate a few peoples comfort zone, will probably drive more away than attract. Because there are a lot more 6 shooters availible at reasonable costs than the expensive 627.

Just My Opinion

buckaroo45 -- thanks

JV

[buckaroo45]

You already CAN shoot a 7-8 holer. Just stop at 6 and score as minor. Ta-Da Kinda like Limited and L-10 major/minor. It's a tougher game in L-10 major. Big bullets and fewer shots is tougher and gets the scoring benefit; not little bullets and more shots. Hell, I sometimes shoot my 627 Open Steel Challenge gun in our weekly USPSA club matches against STI's, Glocks, etc. Only time I beat anybody in that class is when they have a breakdown or brain cramp but I don't expect the rules to change for MY equipment. I suppose next somebody will want to shoot 22 w/ a 30 round mag in Production. Stop whining, suck it up and go shoot. Fer crying out loud IT'S A GAME!

Ron

____________________________________________________________

[underlug]

You already CAN shoot a 7-8 holer. Just stop at 6 and score as minor. Ta-Da Kinda like Limited and L-10 major/minor. It's a tougher game in L-10 major. Big bullets and fewer shots is tougher and gets the scoring benefit; not little bullets and more shots. Hell, I sometimes shoot my 627 Open Steel Challenge gun in our weekly USPSA club matches against STI's, Glocks, etc. Only time I beat anybody in that class is when they have a breakdown or brain cramp but I don't expect the rules to change for MY equipment. I suppose next somebody will want to shoot 22 w/ a 30 round mag in Production. Stop whining, suck it up and go shoot. Fer crying out loud IT'S A GAME!

Ron

Let's chill on the ad hominem inferences. We all just want a stronger revolver division. I still oppose the changes proposed, but, I admit it might be a closer question than my emotions might recognize.

Bubber's experiment might give us a little more information.

Nothing is going to happen in a hurry.

____________________________________________________________

Edited August 26, 2011 by underlug

[Flexmoney]

This feels like (I am guessing?) early 1911 vs. HiPower talks ? Probably a good thing

[underlug]

This feels like (I am guessing?) early 1911 vs. HiPower talks ? Probably a good thing

Does that mean you think someone will come out with a high capacity major power factor revolver that will render the debate moot? (i.e. 2x mag/P14/ 38 supers)

[mrmetalweld57]

I wouldn't even make the 8 shooters score minor. They can safely make major. The 8 shooters are just the progression of the revolver. And they ARE a revolver and should be in revolver class, not production or open.

Edited August 26, 2011 by mrmetalweld57

[10mmdave]

Thanks Bubba for trying to gather some data. I'll try also but mine will be with informal

Wed. night practice sessions where there's more BSing than shooting but we'll see.

<snip> never mind

Later

Edited August 26, 2011 by 10mmdave

[revoman]

I will try and see what I can do at a local level even though it will be myself competing against myself. I will shoot the courses with my 625 and then I will shoot them with my 627. I won't be able to do that until the 3rd weekend in Sept. One thing for sure I will have fun doing it and whats the worst that can happen, I might beat myself.