CHA-LEE Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 I have ROed a bunch of local matches and 99% of the time I stick to only speaking the defined range commands while running shooters through the stage. There are only a few instances where going outside the normal rules process makes total sense. Such as asking a hard of hearing shooter which ear they want me to put the buzzer close to or tapping a deaf shooter on the shoulder to start or stop them. But there are a few situations where I am on the fence about assisting shooters. Below are a couple of examples. Example 1 - The shooter that is up is milling around the start position but not ready to get started or not in a safe place (up range of other shooters) for me to issue the "Make Ready" command. I have learned from past experiences that saying anything during this time can be easily misunderstood as the "Make Ready" command and they end up pulling their gun out of the holster before I actually issue the Make Ready command. Which of course results in a DQ. Since then I have instead started asking the Score keeping RO who the next shooter is as a general roll call to let the person know they are up then I look at the shooter and then give a simple hand gesture towards the start position. During this time I don't say anything until the shooter is in the start position then I issue the "Make Ready" command. So in this case, should I say nothing to the shooter until I issue the "Make Ready" command to eliminate the chance of them DQing themselves by misinterpreting whatever I say as "Make Ready"? Example 2 - There have been a few times where I am watching the shooter make ready and notice that they have not chambered a round by accident (not seating the mag fully, or short stroking the slide while racking it). Then I go outside the normal range commands defined in the rule book and ask them "Are you sure there is a round in the chamber?". I thought that this was just a nice thing to do for a fellow shooter until another shooter, that was competing against the guy who accidentally didn't chamber a round, got angry and said that I gave him an unfair advantage by letting him know he screwed up. Since then I have still noticed shooters fail to chamber a round but said nothing and watched them pay the price after the buzzer goes off. Not intervening makes ME feel like I am acting in an unsportsmanlike fashion. But there are no rules defined that dictate that its up to the RO to make sure that the shooter has charged a round in the chamber. This one I am really torn on. Should I go outside the rules and advise the shooter of their mistake, or take the tuff love rout and let them fail? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 Example 1 - If you think they'll misunderstand what you say to them prior to Make Ready, step in front of them, directly downrange of their position and look them in the eye before speaking. Even if they think you said MR, they won't pull their gun. They might think you;re crazy, but that's OK. *This also works well in those situations where a popper falls or a target is seen to have not been pasted right after the shooter loads. Instead of this silliness of asking them to place their hands on their head, step in front of them and chat while the situation is corrected. They will not pull that gun. Example 2 - Say nothing. Follow the rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 Example 1 - If you think they'll misunderstand what you say to them prior to Make Ready, step in front of them, directly downrange of their position and look them in the eye before speaking. Even if they think you said MR, they won't pull their gun. They might think you;re crazy, but that's OK. *This also works well in those situations where a popper falls or a target is seen to have not been pasted right after the shooter loads. Instead of this silliness of asking them to place their hands on their head, step in front of them and chat while the situation is corrected. They will not pull that gun. Example 2 - Say nothing. Follow the rule. Very sage advice! On both examples....On example #2, they will figure it out, soon enough, and very doubtful that they will make the same mistake twice. Say anything to them, and they may make that mistake again...Most people learn better from their mistakes than from someone guiding/helping them... Who's to say that knew they didn't have a loaded chamber, and was doing it for more of a challenge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CZinSC Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 Example two - I definitely understand what you are saying, but Rule 8.1 spells it out pretty clearly. If I was the competitor and you were RO'ing me, my first thought after the COF would not be "why didn't you say something"...it would be "I'm an Idiot!!" 8.1 Handgun Ready Conditions The ready condition for handguns will normally be as stated below. However, in the event that a competitor fails to load the chamber when permitted by the written stage briefing, whether inadvertently or intentionally, the Range Officer must not take any action, as the competitor is always responsible for the handling of the handgun. I think if you say something, you are in essence coaching, and guilty of an infraction. ( couldn't find that one in the rulebook, although i know it's there ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjb45 Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 I was at A2 when case 2 happened. The RO was an old friend. I have been to house many times. He only said Make Ready. Afterwards, he said he noticed my failure to rack my slide. He wanted to say something but at an Area Match he was not going to say anything. We both laughed at my mental collapse. When I got out of the service, I started shooting skeet with my dad. The sign in the club house said, "if you win with a smile, you lose with a smile"--yelling, whining and complaining was not bad manners. I tried to carry that philosophy into my everyday life. So do not feel bad that you followed the rules, that guy who ragged your ass should reassess his philosophy-IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atbarr Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 Example 2 - There have been a few times where I am watching the shooter make ready and notice that they have not chambered a round by accident (not seating the mag fully, or short stroking the slide while racking it). Then I go outside the normal range commands defined in the rule book and ask them "Are you sure there is a round in the chamber?". I thought that this was just a nice thing to do for a fellow shooter until another shooter, that was competing against the guy who accidentally didn't chamber a round, got angry and said that I gave him an unfair advantage by letting him know he screwed up. Since then I have still noticed shooters fail to chamber a round but said nothing and watched them pay the price after the buzzer goes off. Not intervening makes ME feel like I am acting in an unsportsmanlike fashion. But there are no rules defined that dictate that its up to the RO to make sure that the shooter has charged a round in the chamber. This one I am really torn on. Should I go outside the rules and advise the shooter of their mistake, or take the tuff love rout and let them fail? If this was a level 1 match, this is the time to teach a newbe. The fellow that cried, TS. A.T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avezorak Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 I have been broken of saying anything before " Make Ready". A few weeks ago I was at another clubs match, as usual my buddy and I got squadded with all the new shooters. I didnt realize this until I saw one of the shooters with his slide locked back in his holster. Ok, I asked if anyone had any questions, are you familar with the rules, etc. Answered a couple questions and off we go. Last shooter up, first stage ever, guys are finishing up taping and right as they walk past me, I say " Goin Hot" and turn to my shooter. He is in the process of drawing his pistol. BAD situation. From now on I will stick to only the range commands to avoid another situation like that unless I KNOW that all shooters on my squad know better. Example #2 ill just stay quiet. It makes me feel bad, but its coaching and coaching is not allowed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 Example 1 - If you think they'll misunderstand what you say to them prior to Make Ready, step in front of them, directly downrange of their position and look them in the eye before speaking. Even if they think you said MR, they won't pull their gun. They might think you;re crazy, but that's OK. *This also works well in those situations where a popper falls or a target is seen to have not been pasted right after the shooter loads. Instead of this silliness of asking them to place their hands on their head, step in front of them and chat while the situation is corrected. They will not pull that gun. Example 2 - Say nothing. Follow the rule. Good advice. CHA-LEE, how you handled #1 is perfectly acceptable. On #2, "Make Ready" signifies the start of the course of fire. For that reason alone, anything you say other than the spelled out range commands is improper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKSNIPER Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 #2. You were trying to be a nice guy and treat the shooter as you yourself would want to be treated. I guess if the rules call it coaching and forbid it then you can't do it but personally I don't see a problem with it. If the guy on the sidelines has a problem with it I would have nicely said to him on the side that his loud comments when another shooter is making ready could be interperted by some as unsportsmanlike conduct or interfering with the R.O. I would have mad eit clear that if HE had done the same thing I WOuld probably have reminded him to chamber a round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 And, respectfully speaking, you would have been wrong both times. We don't get to choose the rules we enforce. I know how hard it can be sometimes, but the rules are not suggestions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeMartens Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 Example 1 - So in this case, should I say nothing to the shooter until I issue the "Make Ready" command to eliminate the chance of them DQing themselves by misinterpreting whatever I say as "Make Ready"? Say Nothing, gesture to the box Example 2 - Should I go outside the rules and advise the shooter of their mistake, or take the tuff love rout and let them fail? Say "Make Ready" again, when they look funny at you, nod towards the gun and "Say Make" ready, if they don't get it then, well they won't let it happen again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 I have coached people before who have not chambered a round at Make Ready. The memorable one here was the new shooter who racked the slide and then inserted the magazine. It was his first match so I suggested that he insert the magazine before he racked the slide rather than after. I then suggested that he just relax and just have fun. We all had the same butterflies during our first match. It is all based on experience. I know the new shooters and will assist them in proper technique for Making Ready as well as Unload and Show Clear. If you have been at this for a while???? I watch to see how quick you react to the gun going click instead of BANG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted May 11, 2011 Author Share Posted May 11, 2011 All of my RO experience is from Level 1 club matches so there is usually a wide range of match shooting experience levels on the squads. Its hard for me to let someone fail in either scenario, especially the new shooters. But as you guys have pointed out, the rules are the rules and they must be enforced as defined. For example 2, do you think it would be against the rules to issue a second "Make Ready" command to the shooter who has failed to chamber a round? Then leave it up to the shooter to figure out what they have forgotten and if they don't respond simply proceed with the rest of the range commands to get the stage run going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 You issue one Make Ready. If they insert a magazine then they made ready. If they have not inserted a magazine or handled their gun at all it is possible they did not hear the first command so then you can re-issue it. Once they start to make ready then you just proceed with the rest of the commands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Z Sr Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 I will go outside the official commands only at a local match with a brand new shooter. If I see the shooter is very nervous, I calm them down and I will go very slowly and add a few things to unload and show clear. This is just for safety's sake, the new shooter will not win anyway and I want them safe. I also explain that at larger matches or other clubs they might just get the official commands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 The rule CZinSC quoted is pretty clear. Even a second "Make Ready" command would be a violation of 8.1 8.1 Handgun Ready Conditions The ready condition for handguns will normally be as stated below. However, in the event that a competitor fails to load the chamber when permitted by the written stage briefing, whether inadvertently or intentionally, the Range Officer must not take any action, as the competitor is always responsible for the handling of the handgun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuke8401 Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 Coaching a shooter, especially a new shooter, when safety IS NOT involved removes the best teaching tool possible. Despite the fact that the rule exists, the second to the last thing I want is advice/guidance from an RO. The very last thing I want from an RO is for him to give advice/guidance to my competitor. David E. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 #2. You were trying to be a nice guy and treat the shooter as you yourself would want to be treated. I guess if the rules call it coaching and forbid it then you can't do it but personally I don't see a problem with it. If the guy on the sidelines has a problem with it I would have nicely said to him on the side that his loud comments when another shooter is making ready could be interperted by some as unsportsmanlike conduct or interfering with the R.O. I would have mad eit clear that if HE had done the same thing I WOuld probably have reminded him to chamber a round. And there's the rub -- the rule exists to ensure competitive equity. Say you remind ten shooters during the 3 day match to load their chambers, and then you miss that the 11th shooter didn't load his chamber. See the problem? Your coaching has affected the outcome on the stage.... Gun malfunctions are always on the competitor, including loading induced malfunctions..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 For example 2, do you think it would be against the rules to issue a second "Make Ready" command to the shooter who has failed to chamber a round? Then leave it up to the shooter to figure out what they have forgotten and if they don't respond simply proceed with the rest of the range commands to get the stage run going. Yep, that would not be in the spirit or letter of the rule..... Now, first time shooters are a different story. I want them to have fun and come back after their first match, and I don't want them clearing avoidable malfunctions on the clock, as they have enough safety related stuff to remember --- but that coaching is accompanied by a comprehensive explanation after they run the stage..... It's not unusual for us to hand the timer off to another RO after running a new shooter, so that we can talk about the stage with them, or take them to the safe table to work on their grip or reload. All part of the mentoring process, at a first match.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 There is always the command after "Make Ready'...."Are you ready?". I guess you could say it with some sort of knowing tone in your voice....Hopefully to make them understand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitedog Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 Yup, are you ready can be said in a certain tone and hopefully they get it. Was done that way to me at my first match. No rule was broken and yet I learned from it. Thanks Micah....:-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 You guys are still trying to coach. Stop it. It is against the rules. If you are going to do that, then you might as well just tell them. But, as said...you are then inserting yourself into the competitors attempt at the course of fire. It is crystal clear that the rules don't allow that. ---------------------------------- I had to deal with this situation at a big Major... With a Master class shooter that was likely to win his division. (Plus, he was a staffer, a work horse for the match, USPSA, and shooting in general). I knew he didn't get loaded up. I also knew I couldn't say anything. The rules are clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEH Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 So what if you issue another make ready,and then shooter does not hit a steel plate or popper-you going to tell him that also,,--???????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 For the record... I learned my lesson in 2001...at the Limited Nationals (my first)...with my freshly printed C-class card. It was a good lesson. I don't think I have had to revisit it since then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Hefta Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 You guys are still trying to coach. Stop it. It is against the rules. If you are going to do that, then you might as well just tell them. But, as said...you are then inserting yourself into the competitors attempt at the course of fire. It is crystal clear that the rules don't allow that. ---------------------------------- I had to deal with this situation at a big Major... With a Master class shooter that was likely to win his division. (Plus, he was a staffer, a work horse for the match, USPSA, and shooting in general). I knew he didn't get loaded up. I also knew I couldn't say anything. The rules are clear. Coaching is not against the rules at level 1 matches??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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