Steel Fell. REF?

[Sarge]

We had a pretty productive conversation about this incident on Sunday but I figured I would post it to let everybody have a crack at the puzzle.

A shooter is shooting a stage with poppers and paper. He clearly misses one popper (several times) and more or less gives up. As he is unloading and showing clear a breeze picks up and the popper falls. Is this REF? Please feel free to expound on the matter.

One thought that we sort of had was if a better shooter had been shooting and had not realized he missed a popper until he heard or saw it fall during ULSC he would probably contest it and want it called REF. I think he could say he noticed it at the last second and was going to reload and engage it when it fell. 4.6.2 would seem to support this.

But then again could he be guilty of unsportsmanlike conduct if it were obvious to the RO what really happened?

Just something to toss around among friends. Lets hear what you have to say.

[JakeMartens]

Well if the wind didn't blow, he could call for a calibration, and while waiting if it did fall it would be a reshoot

I would call a REF based on what you posted, if it fell at ulsc, and before he could call for calibration then yes, REF

[Sarge]

Don't you only call for calibration if you hit the target? This target was missed cleanly multiple times.

The first sentence of 4.6.2 says A competitor who is unable to complete a course of fire due to REF is required to reshoot. Is there room for a judgement call by the RO if the shooter was able to complete the COF and was obviously finished?

[Pro-Pain]

I think the big question is when is the COF determined. If he's in the process of ULSC, or already holstered makes a difference too.

If his gun is still out and pointed downrange, the COF is still considered "hot" range, so when does the COF actually end?

This is a good one...what was ruled?

[Joe4d]

once the command if clear hammer down , holster is givin the competitor is prohibited from firing whether the gun is out or not. The COF actually ends with "Range is clear"

The rule states, "Unable to complete" the shooters intents,actions desires, are irrelevant. Mind reading doesnt go into scoring. If the steel fell before the command if clear hammer down holster then it is an REF.

[Graham Smith]

As he is unloading and showing clear a breeze picks up and the popper falls.

Tricky...

The command is, "If you are finished, unload and show clear." If the shooter has already started the process of unloading then they have stated that they are finished. If the wind blows over a steel that the shooter failed to hit, it shouldn't matter because the shooter is already finished shooting.

BUT, as I understand it, until the gun is holstered, the range is still live and the shooter can reload and engage a target if they choose to. SO, equipment failure would be a proper call.

[BayouSlide]

BUT, as I understand it, until the gun is holstered, the range is still live and the shooter can reload and engage a target if they choose to. SO, equipment failure would be a proper call.

It's not the holstering, it's the RO having issued the ICHDH command. Per 8.3.7, “If Clear, Hammer Down, Holster” – After issuance of this command,the competitor is prohibited from firing (see Rule 10.4.3).

Curtis

[JAFO]

I would think that the shooter could have called for a steel calibration if he thought he hit the steel. Was the steel freshly painted so that it would have been clear if the shooter had struck the popper? If it hadn't been painted and the shooter saw the popper still up at the end of the run, he may have called for calibration because he thought he hit it at some point. In that case, the wind blowing it over gives him the reshoot. If there were no marks on the steel, he didn't hit it, so there'd be no need for a calibration and no reshoot.

Aside from that,

8.3.6

“If You Are Finished, Unload And Show Clear” – If the competitor has finished shooting, he must lower his handgun and present it for inspection by the Range Officer with the muzzle pointed down range, magazine removed, slide locked or held open, and chamber empty.

Based on the highlighted statement, I'd generally say that if you have begun to unload, you are finished shooting. If you want to look around to make sure you hit everything, do it in a safe manner with the gun loaded. Unloading, like reholstering, is not on the clock.

In all honesty, if this was a brand new shooter, I may ask "were you finished?" The frustration of missing multiple times on the same popper will usually cause them to answer yes, and brand new shooters often aren't gamers (yet ).

[spanky]

I'd have to say that if it fell BEFORE "If clear, hammer down, holster" it'd be REF. If not it's just the wind knocking down a popper that can't be calibrated because it's not standing. Although, if the RO was paying attention I doubt he'd call for calibration anyway if he knew the popper wasn't hit.

[Singlestack]

If I were the shooter I would have said "whew, took that thing long enough to fall!"

[spanky]

If I were the shooter I would have said "whew, took that thing long enough to fall!"

[bbbean]

If I were the shooter I would have said "whew, took that thing long enough to fall!"

+1!

[Paul Santiago]

If I were the shooter I would have said "whew, took that thing long enough to fall!"

+1!

That is a riot!!!

[Steven Cline]

If the steel feel before the issuance of the command, "If clear, hammer down, holster," it is a REF.

Should the steel fall after "If clear, hammer down, holster," since the competitor is prohibited from firing and subject to DQ the falling steel did not prevent the competitor from completing the CoF; his unloading and showing clear to the RO did. No REF.

ETA: Seems to me Troy McM addressed this in my RO class years ago and I can't recall what he said was proper.

Edited April 27, 2011 by Steven Cline

[Pro-Pain]

It's not the holstering, it's the RO having issued the ICHDH command. Per 8.3.7, “If Clear, Hammer Down, Holster” – After issuance of this command,the competitor is prohibited from firing (see Rule 10.4.3).

Curtis

But this isn't a command, this is a question. "IF clear, hammer down, holster."

"Are you done shooting? If so, HDH."

Still fiddling with his gun doesn't signify either, unless he says "yes i'm done, sir (or ma'am)," or until he presents it.

The RO issues the command, but if the shooter drops the magazine and racks the slide, he could be clearing a malfunction/jam. Not until he presents it to the RO to verify it's empty does he actually complete the string.

Edited April 27, 2011 by Pro-Pain

[Singlestack]

Do a search We beat that to death already.

Here is some fun reading on when is the COF over...

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=79538&st=125

Edited April 27, 2011 by Singlestack
To add link.

[chbrow10]

Rule 4.3.1.5 Scoring metal targets must be shot and fall [or overturn to score.

The OP said that "He clearly misses one popper (several times)". The target wasn't shot. It can't be counted for score.

[Sarge]

This is a good one...what was ruled?

The poor guy probably would not have wanted to shoot it again anyway. So it was just scored a mike. It was afterwards that some of us were talking about how it was technically probably REF. This is just one of those where you just had to be there.

[Flexmoney]

Well if the wind didn't blow, he could call for a calibration,...

Calibrate a miss?

[GrumpyOne]

Well if the wind didn't blow, he could call for a calibration,...

Calibrate a miss?

I thought the same thing....Would they have to miss in the same general area that he did to verify that it was calibrated for misses?

[Lewiston]

This is a good one...what was ruled?

The poor guy probably would not have wanted to shoot it again anyway. So it was just scored a mike. It was afterwards that some of us were talking about how it was technically probably REF. This is just one of those where you just had to be there.

Was it freshly painted? If so and no strike visible in the calibration zone then as stated above I would not call it a REF per 4.3.1.5.

"...Scoring poppers which fail to fall are subject to the provisions of Appendix C1, 6 & 7."

Excellent thread.

Edited May 9, 2011 by Lewiston

[Thomas H]

Was it freshly painted? If so and no strike visible in the calibration zone then as stated above I would not call it a REF per 4.3.1.5.

Just a quick comment----there doesn't have to be a strike in the calibration zone for a competitor to legally challenge the calibration. Just a hit somewhere on the popper.

[juan]

If the steel fell before the end of the course, and you say it's not REF, then it's a disappearing target with no penalties attached and is now a different course of fire than the other shooters shot.

[Ray_Z]

My vote goes to the shooter. The COF wasn't over until the last command was given "Range is Clear". If he discharged his gun after the command "If clear hammer down and holster" that's something else altogether.

[Joe4d]

8.3.7 spells it out pretty clearly, It doesnt matter if the words are in the form of a question or not. The are quoted verbatim in the rule book. ICHD command is giving it doenst matter if he is clear or not or what the answer to the question is. he cant shoot. So if it fell before command was issued, REF if after, Scored as a miss.