Is USPSA about accuracy?

[Flexmoney]

Controlled falling is a pretty natural activity for those of us living in a world with gravity in it.

That makes you sound so...mortal.

[carlosa]

Quick side note here, we fall ALL the time. Its call walking. Don't believe me? Start walking and then without changing your stride or inertia, fold up one of your legs instead of putting it down. You will fall on your face. Walking is controlled falling forward. Controlled falling is a pretty natural activity for those of us living in a world with gravity in it.

Mindplotion!

[cyburg]

The way I see it is this way. If one places the finger on the trigger the gun may go off. Hhuuummmm just saying.

No one ever said you or anyone else had to shoot fast. Take you time, as I also remember, smooth is fast. Once you can hit the way you want to, them pick up your pace until your the fastest and hitting all a's.

If you don't like leaning out to take a shot then don't. It's your game.

[Jim Norman]

Ps

If you think that uspsa needs to focus more on accuracy you better be burning down your stages at the fastest times with all Alpha hits.

Until then keep trying

Well said. Almost all of us can shoot all A's. Almost all of us can shoot relatively fast. Some of can shoot all A's relatively fast, only a few of us can shoot all A's REALLY Fast.

This is sort of what we tell new shooters. Shoot slow and get you hits, learn how to navigate the COF. Then when you are getting all A's and they are nearly touching, kick it up a notch or two. Start missing, and hitting D's and NSs, back it off a touch.

No one I know shoots all A's all the time faster than everyone else. Al lot of us shoot a lot of A's pretty darned fast.

[38superman]

Let me preface this by saying that Top Shot is not relevant for me as I really don't care who is the best tomahawk tosser or the best archer.

Is USPSA more about speed? ....... Yes

There is an old adage that you can't miss fast enough to win.

I'm not so sure.

Most of the long field courses will forgive dropping a few points in favor of shaving a few seconds.

Even some of the classifiers require a cyclic rate of fire approaching a machine gun to get a decent score.

Can you Count?

That said, the difference between a good speedshooter and a great one is that the best can maintain that speed AND get hits.

News flash. This just in:

The key to this sport isn't speed OR accuracy.

It's consistency.

[Wild Gene]

A tommy gun, a bow, a tomahawk, and bad hamstrings...hard to think that top shot has much relevance to our sport?

My thoughts exactly. Different guns, definately not as refined. I thought Maggie would have kicked rear, she can't shoot a bow.. Not many Bow's in 3-GUN. Yet also very interesting is some of the cross overs. I always laugh that the mounted shooters stay there as long as they do. They shoot BP Blanks at Balloons!

The USPSA shooters on Top Shot are very good at shooting very fast and very accurately with their equipment in their divisions. They also know how to play the game very well.

I think USPSA is about accuracy, but also speed and knowing how to really play the game. It is such an overall challenge. I was a pretty good Cowboy Shooter, and have also done very well shooting Trap as well as 3D Archery. Right now, I am only a middle of the road USPSA shooter. I don't really know how to play the game. It is a lot more like Chess than you imagine when you are first starting out.

Have a great day!

WG

[sdm74]

The club I shoot at uses plenty of hardcover targets, and you better slow down enough to be accurate. You can be 2 seconds quicker with a. 30 less hit factor and you will lose. So I dont see how uspsa doesn't have enough accuracy in the sport already.

[Ron Ankeny]

I think we all know USPSA is not about accuracy in comparison to PPC, Bullseye, etc. As far as balancing accuracy with speed and power, that's kind of subjective. I do believe the trend is away from accuracy in favor of hosing (more fun) but those are local factors. It's all about pleasing the customer.

[glefos]

Just out of curiosity, how often are Class winners at major matches out scored by 2nd and 3rd place? If the theory that accuracy is not important (or as important), this statistic would verify it.

[carlosa]

Just out of curiosity, how often are Class winners at major matches out scored by 2nd and 3rd place? If the theory that accuracy is not important (or as important), this statistic would verify it.

do you mean how often do they rack up more points per stage but lose once their points are divided by their time?

[Flexmoney]

Folks, this is real simple. As I mentioned before...just look at the resulting hit factors from your matches. The hit factors...they factor the ratio of points vs. time (with a pinch of power). DVC.

USPSA has guidelines on this, as I recall. I won't quote the numbers, because I may not remember them exactly. (I'll dig that up when I get some time, unless somebody beats me to it.)

There need not be any guess work here, nor subjectivity. Just look at the scores and see what the hit factor prove to be. I would caution that you look at the bulk of the shooters at your match (not just the top dogs). That is who you want to build you matches toward.

Also, knowing where you shooters are...that can allow you to design stages that help bring along their skills. Keep it challenging, but not completely out of reach.

[Jim Norman]

Kyle, I took your challenge and did a quick looksee at the last two matches we ran. In the combined scores the top shooters almost across the board had almost identical points, Time is what made the difference. On occasion the top shooter had 3-5 fewer points, but was generally an open shooter that is a standout and had a time that was considerably faster. For the most part it appears that accuracy is important, speed is important, but the most important thing is FAST ACCURACY! No body is missing their way to a win!

[CHA-LEE]

I think this subject is entertaining. When it comes down to it USPSA/IPSC shooters are on average very accurate given the shooting conditions and requirements they are tasked with executing. Wondering if USPSA shooters are more or less “Accurate” than what is required to do well on Top Shot is like comparing apples to oranges. Both are “Games” and each game has its own set of requirements in order to win. Competitors who succeed in either game will do so by optimizing what is important for the shooting challenge and executing the task well.

Almost all of the shooting challenges on Top Shot have very little correlation to what it takes to succeed at USPSA/IPSC competition. Is it really much of a surprise to see top end GM’s crash and burn on this show? I say no it isn’t given how almost all of the shooting challenges are counter to what they have been practicing and executing all of these years to become top flight GM’s.

When you call the accuracy of USPSA shooters in question it needs to be put into perspective. One type of accuracy skill is shooting from a stationary position and having all day to shoot a single shot in a very precise location. Another type of accuracy skill is being able to hit multiple targets with two shots each in less than .25 second in splits or transitions all while moving to another shooting position. You tell me, which one of these examples takes more of an accuracy shooting skill base to execute properly? Unfortunately all of the shooting challenges on Top Shot do not reward my second example, thus the GM’s advanced shooting skills do not have a chance to shine.

In the end it all comes down the game being played. If I had the choice of shooting “Stages” like the ones that are being used on Top Shot, or shooting USPSA style stages the choice is easy for me. The USPSA stages are more fun and require a higher overall shooting and movement skill to execute properly. I will wait to attend “Stand and Shoot” matches for when I am too old to run any more and am stuck in a wheel chair.

[Jim Norman]

No argument Cha-Lee, Top Shot would be a place where, at least in shooting guns, a PPC or Bianci shooter might excel. USPSA/IPSC and even IDPA all stress "PRACTICAL ACCURACY" in other words, two shots, center of mass very fast, while moving to another position and transitioning to another target. Our target is arguably 6" x 11" and all that is required is to have two hits touching this.

Top Shot is not about shooting so much as about adapting, luck, and getting along with people that you want to send away, not beat, but DQ. We don't try to DQ our fellow shooters, we want them there to test our skills against over the length of the entire match. Top Shot would be better for us if all the shooters had to shoot all the stages and were scored overall to see who was the best all around shooter. What they are doing is not this. The Top Shot may not even have competed in every challenge, so how does one make the claim that the winner is the Top Shot?

[38superman]

When it comes down to it USPSA/IPSC shooters are on average very accurate given the shooting conditions and requirements they are tasked with executing.

When you call the accuracy of USPSA shooters in question it needs to be put into perspective. One type of accuracy skill is shooting from a stationary position and having all day to shoot a single shot in a very precise location. Another type of accuracy skill is being able to hit multiple targets with two shots each in less than .25 second in splits or transitions all while moving to another shooting position. You tell me, which one of these examples takes more of an accuracy shooting skill base to execute properly? Unfortunately all of the shooting challenges on Top Shot do not reward my second example, thus the GM's advanced shooting skills do not have a chance to shine.

You make a very good point.

One shooter has the skill set to get two good hits on a swinger that flashes past a window in a fraction of a second.

Another shooter can stack five rounds into the same hole when the clock is not a factor.

Which one is the better marksman?

For me, the answer to the question is irrelevant.

I want to be the shooter that can compete with both of those guys.

[Chris iliff]

What's the grueling long distance cross country racing event, Is it Eco Challenge? I seem to recall that most specialized teams that compete in this never fair well. Navy Seals, Green Berets, etc. ..... They never do as well as expected, usually getting beat by a bunch of teams made up of tree hugging outdoor enthusiasts. Go figure that.

Same dynamic with Top Shot and USPSA. Jake and Coach are nailing the reasoning.

I like the show, but it is the Trick Pony, not our guys. I said after season one in a thread what they should do to make it geared toward the shooter, as did many. That is not what it's about.

Take the shoot off from this week. Jay gets to stand prone in his Olympic rifle stance and shoot? You got to be deluded to think that's not a set up. All the hoopla about how slow he transitions and they feed him a challenge that doesn't test speedy transitions!! And the whole episode is based on speed shooting with a .22. Get real!!

As a USPSA shooter I would not associate myself or organization to a reality type shooting show of any kind. After almost 2 seasons it's clear that we do not come off in the best light. We are the filler, the "Big Guns", it's better TV if we get set up and picked off by golfers. They use us for our "titles" to lend prestige to the show. I don't like being used.

[Chris iliff]

Yes, USPSA is about accuracy..... and speed....... and power.

[ninemmbill]

What's the grueling long distance cross country racing event, Is it Eco Challenge? I seem to recall that most specialized teams that compete in this never fair well. Navy Seals, Green Berets, etc. ..... They never do as well as expected, usually getting beat by a bunch of teams made up of tree hugging outdoor enthusiasts. Go figure that.

Same dynamic with Top Shot and USPSA. Jake and Coach are nailing the reasoning.

I like the show, but it is the Trick Pony, not our guys. I said after season one in a thread what they should do to make it geared toward the shooter, as did many. That is not what it's about.

Take the shoot off from this week. Jay gets to stand prone in his Olympic rifle stance and shoot? You got to be deluded to think that's not a set up. All the hoopla about how slow he transitions and they feed him a challenge that doesn't test speedy transitions!! And the whole episode is based on speed shooting with a .22. Get real!!

As a USPSA shooter I would not associate myself or organization to a reality type shooting show of any kind. After almost 2 seasons it's clear that we do not come off in the best light. We are the filler, the "Big Guns", it's better TV if we get set up and picked off by golfers. They use us for our "titles" to lend prestige to the show. I don't like being used.

Conspiracy theory, I like it. It does make for more interesting TV when the "Big Guns" or pros are beaten and eliminated by golfers and the like.

[Steven Cline]

I've only read the first page of posts, and I am surprised that nobody has posted the reverse question:

Is TopShot really too much about accuracy and not enough about speed?

While I have my doubts about too much conditioning to a particular tool and what effect Open sights are having on persons suddenly forced to shoot iron sights I ponder...

What would the competition have looked like if the spinning wheel of death had been a team challenge with Tilley, Athena and Maggie shooting... can anyone say slaughter? Or would it have been since it wasn't "their" gun?

How about the opening and closing doors on the plates that saw Jay send Jerome packing? What if it had been Sevegny and and another M or GM level Production gunner?

ETA: Oh, I see these same thoughts are just a few posts up...

Edited April 5, 2011 by Steven Cline

[Nemesis Lead]

One thing we are neglecting how the rules of Top Shot skew the results we see on TV.

On this show, only about 1 event in 3 involves pistols. When pistols are involved, often they are cowboy guns or something else of an "odd" nature. The best candidates are the well rounded ones--not USPSA Open GMs.

Add to this the "man down" rule in Top Shot. If a team is down a man, they can select someone from the other team to sit out the event. So in pistol events, prepare to lose your pistol expert (often the USPSA GM). So our USPSA GM never got a chance to "strut his stuff" in some cases.

Not to sound ridiculous, but what about the possibility of competitors "throwing challenges?" If you are a pistol expert, do you really mind going into the elimination challenge where you will likely beat the heck out of a precision rifle shooter that you dislike or feel threatened by? We saw some really specialized pistol shooters do terribly. Could they have thrown it? No one can say with 100% certainty except the person competing.

I would not draw serious conclusions on the skills of the people involved (or the efficacy of USPSA in general) from this show. USPSA is great they way it is and those are some impressive shooters. Instead--we should respect OTHER shooting disciplines MORE than we do. I know of lots of USPSA shooters who look down on other disciplines/games and clearly, they are wrong.

Edited April 7, 2011 by Nemesis Lead

[mpeltier]

This wasn't a question about safety, I think that we have a very good record of being very safe.

Nobody was talking about changing targets size or the size of the A zone....

It was a question of have we put speed over accuracy.

I think so, and am happy about that. This is not implying that there is a lack of accuracy to shooting USPSA, but the emphasis on speed is (in my opinion) what makes it so much fun. If I wanted to shoot bullseye.....well you get the picture.

And as far as the GM's having difficulty on Top shot...who cares. There really is not much differance in actual shooting skill/fundamentals between a GM and an A/B shooter (again, my opinion) and those that put the GM's on some kind of god pedastal are now seeing this with the performances on top shot. The things that the GM's do to win at USPSA are not the same things neccessary for winning a TV gameshow.

[Ben Stoeger]

2 things jump out at me reading this thread:

Firstly...does anyone really believe that the best marksman wins on Top Shot? Let me ask it this way, if it were a match open to the public and it wasn't a TV show.. How many of you would go? I know I wouldn't. You don't even know what the rules are before you show up... not to mention what weapon you will be using or anything. Hell... many of the challenges only have you fire 1 to 3 shots.

Related to USPSA specifically.. I know that being very accurate helps you shoot USPSA well. USPSA has lots of elements and I would say being accurate is the most important one.

[GForceLizard]

I shoot groups over the chrono to kill 2 birds with 1 stone. I was pleaded at how accuate my loads were. At the same time a bullseye shooter would think they were crap. Yes USPSA is about accuracy. But only up to a point.

[Coach]

2 things jump out at me reading this thread:

Firstly...does anyone really believe that the best marksman wins on Top Shot? Let me ask it this way, if it were a match open to the public and it wasn't a TV show.. How many of you would go? I know I wouldn't. You don't even know what the rules are before you show up... not to mention what weapon you will be using or anything. Hell... many of the challenges only have you fire 1 to 3 shots.

Related to USPSA specifically.. I know that being very accurate helps you shoot USPSA well. USPSA has lots of elements and I would say being accurate is the most important one.

Accuracy by volume?

[Ben Stoeger]

2 things jump out at me reading this thread:

Firstly...does anyone really believe that the best marksman wins on Top Shot? Let me ask it this way, if it were a match open to the public and it wasn't a TV show.. How many of you would go? I know I wouldn't. You don't even know what the rules are before you show up... not to mention what weapon you will be using or anything. Hell... many of the challenges only have you fire 1 to 3 shots.

Related to USPSA specifically.. I know that being very accurate helps you shoot USPSA well. USPSA has lots of elements and I would say being accurate is the most important one.

Accuracy by volume?

When I am teaching a class or training on my own, the students that shoot the best overall are almost without exception the people that can shoot the best slowfire. The people that shoot the slowest stage times are usually unable to hit a 10 yard plate with consistency. You can read into that whatever you would like.