STUPID QUESTION TIME:

[bigbrowndog]

In the last few years, it seems more and more MD's and staff, are putting most of the concern and attention to all sorts of match issues and having accurate and correct scores seems like its not important??

I base this on several matches, Major's and Big regional matches, not just local matches. The match normally asks competitors to check your scores and make sure they are right, but all of us don't, so how do you know if the guy that took all the stage points for the stage checked to make sure his score was correct??? or if it wasn't did they correct the error??

Is there anyway to back up verify that a fat finger didn't put in the wrong number for a time, a 6 for a 9, or 3 for a 6?? Do scores get entered and verified by 2 people, if not can it be done, easily?? would it be possible to re-verify scores for the top 5 or 10 in a division to ensure that the winner actually won???

Or do accurate scores just not matter to you???

Never having been in the scorekeeper/ data entry part of the match I have no idea what it takes or what measures are already taken to ensure accuracy, but I do know errors have happened, BIG errors.

Trapr

[Benelli Chick]

You're right! People are in a hurry to get results and that puts a lot of pressure on the scorekeepers.

Our scorekeeper has been so worried, he's got a little report that tells him fastest time on a stage and slowest as a personal check. One years Eddie Rhodes shot a Rocky Mountain 3-Gun stage in 17 seconds. Now, our scorekeeper caught that...but...someone else got by before his new checking system, and we expected the guy to win a stage, so that wasn't a red flag, but the second place guy got 15% of his score and we didn't figure it out until too late, so we looked stupid, but did get things straightened out before the prize table!

Anyway, our scorekeeper wants to be perfect and loose fingers happen to everyone.

In 2010, we got lucky and added a 3rd person to the scoring team and he checked the printouts of all scores entered with the scoresheets. We caught some typos, and things went much better.

We have someone check the scoresheets...then the scorekeeper enters them into the computer, he rechecks them with the scoresheets right then and THEN our third guy checks the printouts with the paper scoresheets again!

We are trying to be as accurate as quickly as possible. It matters to our scorekeeper so much! I think he stays up nights trying to find a better way to check and get things in! For us, Saturday, is a nightmare. We have every score from the early shoot, Thursday and Friday quadruple checked by Saturday morning, but then...

We know not everyone checks their scores, so we try to be sure that the big sheets say the same thing as the scoresheets. Now, if the scoresheets are wrong...that's another issue. There's also handwriting etc.

Shooters checking their scores as they're posted is a big help for everyone!

Mistakes can be made, but we try so hard to be accurate and we feel very stupid when we screw up!

Edited to add, and if something goes wrong with computers etc, shooters complaining loudly, stomping around and complaining about how long is it going to take only leads to things being more inaccurate because the scorekeepers are ready to cry anyway!!! (And I've seen that happen at at least 3 major matches, where everyone complains about slow finals...when thay're just trying to be as accurate as they can. I don't think there's any scorekeeper anywhere who goes slow on purpose!)

So once again, everyone, check your scores as soon as you can!

Edited March 8, 2011 by Benelli Chick

[BayouSlide]

Accurate scoring of all competitors is, to me, the most essential aspect of any match, local or major.

Curtis

[Rob Tompkins]

As a shooters, I admit I don't always verify the exact number of A's, B's, C's. and D's (well maybe D's) but I do make sure there are not any "extra" M's or PE's. Part of it is I don't want to hold up the next shooter while I try and count hits or debate 10 A's and 8 C's vs 8 A's and 10 C's - at my level of shooting its not likely to make much difference in the overall outcome and I want to keep the squad moving. Its not that I don't care but just considerate to the rest of the squad.

After the match, I might verify correct entry from the copies proved for each stage.

If I am taking score (normally at a local match) I will not hesitate to make the RO slow down, repeat, or what ever it takes to be sure what I note is ACCURATE!

Edited March 8, 2011 by Rob Tompkins

[Jadeslade]

Yeah, I have gotten in the habit of checking scores. I haven't been competitive over the last year, but I will be, since I am now with new metal parts, but like at Superstition last year, score sheets got lost somewhere between 3Gun Nation table and official score table. it still matters to me that scoring is correct. Kind of like not cheating. It should just be done right.

[Fullauto_Shooter]

Accurate scoring is definitely in the top 3 for me, right behind safety and on-par with camraderie.

Aside from obvious prize-table implications at larger matches, the main thing for me is this - I just want to see how I stack up against certain folks. I've got a few personal "benchmark" shooters that I keep my eye on and try to gauge my progression (or regression) based on how my scores compares to theirs. Maybe it's just me, but I think it's human nature to hang a figurative target on the back of those shooters you're trying to catch.

[Corey]

Scoring is quite imporant. For larger matches, scoring (and scoring errors) can mean different prizes awarded, no trophies etc etc. For local matches, I want to know how I stack up to the other guys at the match. there are plenty of more experienced shooters than me and if I beat them or come close, it makes me feel better about my performance and I know I'm doing something well.

[jar]

For the major IDPA matches I've worked/shot around New England, all the scores are entered in the computer by two people, and the software kicks out any that don't match for verification. For any thing bigger than a club match, I'd expect this.

[mpeltier]

Are you asking us as competitors, or as match staff if it matters?

I would hope, as it matters to match staff, that asside from safety, it should be job one.

As a competitor, I always check scores for accuracy and expect the scores to be as accurate as possible. I don't put out the time and effort and money to go to a big match for the scores to be of no meaning.

[bigbrowndog]

Both, Mark.

To me scores are the culmination of why we shoot, They determine more than just your placement at the end of the match. I try to verify my own scores, at signing of the scoresheet as well as when the scores are posted. But verifying my scores does nothing if ALL the others do not do so as well.

For some reason MD's will hold FINAL scores, so that the shooters won't know who won???? I think if finals were posted it might lead to more accurate results, because all the competitors can see where they actually came out, and it puts more eyes on the scores to catch errors, but also having checks and balances in place by staff could ensure accuracy.

trapr

[SGDM]

Trapr,

You bet buddy, they are critical. As a MD and shooter you must insure scores are correct. You and I have both seen some pretty ugly situations. I know at my matches at least 2 look at the scoring. Linda is a god send! The scoring will make ya or break ya.

[bigbrowndog]

I'm hoping Linda will chime in, or that I can get with her in the future to see if there is a better way to skin this 'possum. I know she has had issues in the past, but mostly computer related.

Trapr

[kurtm]

The propper response here is, It,s about the shooting, not the prize table or the scores, I do this because I love it.

It would be nice IF all this were to hapen, but it never will....so "Drink up and be happy, live jusy for today, drown in cheap tequilla and flush your cares away"

Edited to add: (Stupid Answer Time) Just messing with my amigo Trapr!

Edited March 9, 2011 by kurtm

[Nuke8401]

I shoot with so many shooters that say they do it for fun/practice_______(fill in the blank) and they really don't care where they place. I think this is a "feel good" trend in our society. I personally enjoy shooting but the score is EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!!! I always check the SO's scoring and for any significant match I check my score sheet copies against the official results.

David E.

[StealthyBlagga]

The stats crews work HARD. However, we have a 1-hour protest period for a reason - it is everyone's job to double-check the final posted scores for accuracy.

[MarkCO]

Scores are EXTREMELY important, and I venture to say at all levels. Scores are the measurement of the person, wether we admit it or not. It is true in all aspects of life, a biggie...your paycheck is a score. If you play basketball, you keep score. Winners reap the benefits of proper scoring, and losers try to get better. There should be double entry/double checks of all scores to ensure accuracy and thwart nefarious actions. Encased in your question are so many facets though, and it is NOT stupid. For perfection, the ROs have to be machines, the courses can't change, the light and weather have to remain constant, *and we have to paint for every shooter*...but we can get the scores right.

A slight drift, but I have been seeing a lot of lazy ROs lately that lag behind the shooter and in several cases the last few shots don't get picked up, giving a better score than was actually shot. Improper scoring and improper safety to boot. Some of these cases have been mitigated, others not. Officials should not affect outcomes except by enforcement of the written rules!

So YES Trapr, scores ARE very important and as such, accuracy is VERY important. Those who say score does not matter will fib about other stuff too!

*Edited to add for Trapr

Edited March 10, 2011 by MarkCO

[kurtm]

Warning!!! Thread drift...and back,

First off lagging R.O.s are th sign of BAD course design! I remember going to a Very LARGE 3-gun match and as I was walking the stages I asked the R.O. who was running other R.O.s on the day before who in the hell designed "this R.O. KIller" of a stage! By day 2 of the real match one of the R.O.s had worn a hole in his boots and the other two were dead on their feet. All 3 of theguys working that stage stated We Will NEVER work this match again...BRAVO!

The rest of what Mark says is right on the money, but what I hate is a final over all not being posted, I check my scores and few others, but I can't check them all. A good example of this was Mesa one year, just scores, no over all. so all the guys in iron were looking at the iron results and when it came time for the anouncements ALL of us who shot irons were wondering if all of a sudden we all collectivly SUCKED!! (this was back when tac optic and Iron was mixed together at the end.) When it came time for the finals to be prinited out some how in the mix one entire stage was DROPPED form the iron shooters scores....Looked right on the "stage" scores posted but DIDN'T even come close on the final! I lost 100 points right off the top, I got to go to the prize table 8th cause I had a hell of a match, but in reality I was second overall. A post of the over-alls would have corrected and fixed this whole sorry affair! Right On Mark!

[LChico]

Trapr,

You bet buddy, they are critical. As a MD and shooter you must insure scores are correct. You and I have both seen some pretty ugly situations. I know at my matches at least 2 look at the scoring. Linda is a god send! The scoring will make ya or break ya.

Hi Everyone,

At any match I score, or Sandra Orvig scores, every single score is "data entry" by one person, and "data verified" by a second. Period. No exceptions. That's for USPSA, IDPA, Multigun of any description, or Sporting Clays. Anyone can make a scoring error - but the second set of eyes decreases the possibility that we will actually post an error.

Notice I said "decreases" not eliminates the possibility of an error. It is still the shooter's responsibility to check scores.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

Columbia SC

Edited March 10, 2011 by LChico

[Flexmoney]

Is there anyway to back up verify that a fat finger didn't put in the wrong number for a time,..?Trapr

The match normally asks competitors to check your scores and make sure they are right, but all of us don't...

[dcarter]

Yep, You are the first link in the chain. If you don't care enough to check your scores before you sign the score sheet then maybe you become a part of the problem. Scores at a major match should be verified just to make sure that what is written on the score sheet was recorded correctly but what is written must be checked by YOU first.

[Modoc]

At any match I score, or Sandra Orvig scores, every single score is "data entry" by one person, and "data verified" by a second. Period. No exceptions. That's for USPSA, IDPA, Multigun of any description, or Sporting Clays. Anyone can make a scoring error - but the second set of eyes decreases the possibility that we will actually post an error.

Notice I said "decreases" not eliminates the possibility of an error. It is still the shooter's responsibility to check scores.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

Columbia SC

Both Linda and Benelli Chick are spot on for the method that works for ensuring that the scores are input correctly. I MD a moderate sized Cowboy Action Match (Level 2 USPSA equivalent - I think). And we use the same system for our data entry. We also have a bit of an idea about how good/bad the shooters are and WILL question anomalous scores. For us, the final scores are part and parcel to the package that we are selling to our customers, so we need to be fast and accurate.

As for the other part of Trapr's question, I shoot for fun, but the scores ARE part of the fun. This means that I am listening for the Tao's announcement of my time, and I follow the TO and Score Keeper so that I can verify that the Score Keeper wrote down the correct scores. To me this is as integral to the stage as my pre-shoot walk through and shooting the stage.

[AlamoShooter]

Its not easy , I know the biggest problem is if the person entering scores has to "look" at the key board. The only way to be consistent and quick with entering is by being able to look at the screen when you enter.

I am not and will not be a good speller but #numbers are something I am good at. Ifn When I make a mistake it cost me money.

My Idea is for the Queen of Score keeping write up a check list / for score keepers Questions the MD should ask and things to know about how the scores will be entered before the match starts.

After the scores are started to enter I bet its -too late to come up with a plan-

Lets post in a ask Linda to give us A Score Keepers Guide

I have entered monthly club match scores for over 17 years and some sporting clays events. But I do not think I am qualified to to enter a large event scores and keep cool. I never had the distractions a normal stat shack can have.

How about it Linda? Want to give us a "Gold Standard"

There is NO close enough in scoring

[wgnoyes]

I can drive 10-key pretty fast. I get a pile of scoresheets for a stage, and the competitors' comp#s are on each sheet. EzWinScore it set up so that you can just key in the comp# and he'll call up the guy on the screen. Then you slam in the numbers, save it, and key in the comp# of the next guy, because the computer has already set the cursor back to the box for the comp#. If you're good, you often don't even HAVE to look at the screen and can still accurately keypunch upwards of 5 scoresheets a minute. (I'll sneak a glance to make sure I'm keying in for the right guy!)

My process is enter a batch of scoresheets as already described, then print the verify sheet for that batch I just keyed in. I wrap the verify sheet around the related scoresheets and hand the packet off to whoever's verifying. A practice that originates from bank teller training and keypunch operators is don't verify your own work; if you read it wrong the first time, you may read it wrong again.

The verifier compares the verify sheet against each scoresheet and checks off the correct ones. If one is wrong, it gets crossed off the verify sheet (indicating this scoresheet is no longer in this packet) and is sent back to the computer on which it was originally keyed. The remaining scoresheets remain with the verify cover sheet, the verifier signs off (no really; ACTUALLY signs off on the verify sheet) that this packet has been verified, and it gets filed away for later retrieval if need be.

That's how my computer room works; that's how Joy Hyden's computer room works.

[LChico]

I think most major match stats people at USPSA matches are using the same process Bill Noyes described above. But since Trapr posted the initial question, I assumed he was talking about non-USPSA matches (shotgun, rifle or multigun matches). Because those matches are scored using Excel spreadsheets or Access databases, the verification process is not typically programmed into the scoring program. The stats team has to create it.

I program a verify process into any matches I score using Access, and have a double check routine for matches scored using spreadsheets. My point was that no matter how you score the match, every single score entry must be verified by a second person.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

Columbia SC

[Fullauto_Shooter]

I think most major match stats people at USPSA matches are using the same process Bill Noyes described above. But since Trapr posted the initial question, I assumed he was talking about non-USPSA matches (shotgun, rifle or multigun matches). Because those matches are scored using Excel spreadsheets or Access databases, the verification process is not typically programmed into the scoring program. The stats team has to create it.

I program a verify process into any matches I score using Access, and have a double check routine for matches scored using spreadsheets. My point was that no matter how you score the match, every single score entry must be verified by a second person.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

Columbia SC

After I earned a DQ at the last Benning Match, I spent all Sunday morning helping Linda, Sandra, and another lady (think her name was Julie) in the stats shack. I served as a second set of eyes in the independent verification process and really learned a lot. Needless to say, I'd have rather been shooting - but since my shooting was done, helping in stats was educational. Linda runs a VERY disciplined scoring process - it's no wonder there are so few errors in the matches she works. If there were a classification for stats, she'd be a top-level GM.