M1911 Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 (edited) I've just started shooting SSR in IDPA, and I'm in the process of working up my load. So, honestly, my SSR reloads don't yet make 125 PF. I'm at about 110 PF with my 158 gr reloads, and maybe 105 PF with my 125 gr leftovers. I haven't had any problem knocking over steel. If we get official notice of the 105 PF, I'll probably work up 158 gr reloads to 115 PF, as I'm seeing a very large variation in speed with the Berry bullets that I'm using. Edited January 13, 2011 by M1911 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SauconValley Shooter Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Good Morning, I sent a message to HQ and my AC, regarding a steel rule that may be needed. My AC replied that "in the beginning" the founders of IDPA believed that MDs should use common sense and therefore did not feel the need for the rule book to spell out every last detail. Therefore, it is the MD's responsibility to ensure that all steel will fall with the lowest IDPA power factor ammunition. Personally, I like this explaination, my AC explained that IDPA was supposed to be played by "big boy rules", meaning that we do not need a rule in order for everything to be fair. Hopefully, all of the MDs are up to this standard. I would like to think that I am. M1911, do you tilt your muzzle up before each shot through the chrono? If I do not tilt the barrel, my velocities are all over the place, but when I do tilt the muzzle, things tighten up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gr7070 Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 (edited) Said another way...are there really that many disenfranchised newb wheelgunners who are sitting at home on the match days biting their lips and saying "But if only IDPA would lower their power factor floor I could finally start shooting IDPA....(sigh)"??? I don't doubt there are very few. I don't think PF is the problem with SSR participation. I think *revolvers* are the problem with participation. Most folks just like autos better. They have bigger capacities with easier reloads, better triggers, better looking, cheaper ammo, available ammo, and newer technology being applied to them. Revolvers on their own don't have as much going for them as autos. Within the context of a speed game they are much further behind autos than they typically are. Having said that the PF reduction makes sense as it allows SSR to still function within IDPA's Principals of using off-the-shelf equipment. how many newbies (nonreloaders) are there anticipated to start flying out of the woodwork with their .38 Specials and two boxes of factory ammo? I don't quite understand this notion that's been posted by a number of people - the talk of newbs joining the sport and doing so with revolvers. Much of this talk just presumes that anyone in the sport for a reasonable amount of time reloads. This is not the case, at all. Plenty of folks shoot IDPA a handful of times a year for years without reloading. Any number of those people may have interest in trying revolver. To just assume that only newbs to the sport don't reload makes no sense and isn't a factor in the discussion. Edited January 13, 2011 by gr7070 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strick Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Good Morning, my AC explained that IDPA was supposed to be played by "big boy rules", meaning that we do not need a rule in order for everything to be fair. Hopefully, all of the MDs are up to this standard. I would like to think that I am. Yeah, it is much better to not have clear rules so that everything won't be fair. This is the thinking that...........nevermind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GForceLizard Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 ...the founders of IDPA believed that MDs should use common sense and therefore did not feel the need for the rule book to spell out every last detail. Therefore, it is the MD's responsibility to ensure that all steel will fall with the lowest IDPA power factor ammunition... I like that SSR shooters can use common off the shelf ammo. I don't like that using steel on a windy day will suck, as it blows over. Time to get good at calling my shots. Any steel that doesn't fall, I'm getting a reshoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M1911 Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 M1911, do you tilt your muzzle up before each shot through the chrono? If I do not tilt the barrel, my velocities are all over the place, but when I do tilt the muzzle, things tighten up. No, I haven't tried that. I'm rather cautious about elevated muzzles, but I guess I'll have to give that a try. Unfortunately, we just got 20" of snow and my chrono doesn't seem to work indoors, so it may be a while before I can try it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detonics Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Good Morning, my AC explained that IDPA was supposed to be played by "big boy rules", meaning that we do not need a rule in order for everything to be fair. Hopefully, all of the MDs are up to this standard. I would like to think that I am. Yeah, it is much better to not have clear rules so that everything won't be fair. This is the thinking that...........nevermind. In fairness to the AC that was "sort of" quoted I will place the full text of what was emailed to Ken and I. Hi Ken, I know in USPSA they have taken the time to draft a ruling on the proper power factor to set a popper, and it is rather specific and requires calibration ammunition. As I recall from talking about this with one of the founders, they did not set such a rule for two reasons. First was that they felt that the MD should be cognizant of the consequences of having a popper set for a heavier power factor than shooters will be using. Otherwise, he should not be the MD. Second, they wanted to leave it open to the MD to be able to set it lower if he sees a reason to do this such as to accommodate the odd BUG shooter with a .380 or whatnot. A lot of the rulebook was set around the concept of "big boy rules" and the belief that the MD would have common sense enough to see the correct path within these issues. It does seem that as the sport grows there is are some different requirements for the rule book that was not there in the beginning. It is an interesting point to raise, and I hope Robert takes the time to think it over. As for the steel calibration question, I can assure you that I have placed it on my slate for review. You will however have to wait to see a official announcement on what we may be doing with SSR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cd662 Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 (edited) Since there's been a few people curious about the supposed PF change and its effect on new participation, I'll bite. I started shooting non-sanctioned IDPA a few months back and have since done one sanctioned match for IDPA and one official ICORE match. Previous to that I had been shooting for less than a year. People recommended I check out the action shooting stuff but I had a 686+ and could not use it according to the individual that ran the IDPA-style shoot at my local range. I traded it and got a 586 and started buying some stuff. To a degree, its a moot point because the IDPA-style match isn't official but I was not doing any reloading and all of my ammo was factory. I solely bought factory ammo for a few months. The one official IDPA match I shot was also with factory ammo - it didn't matter in my case because I was just walking and taking everything slow. However, if someone had come up to me and said "I'm sorry, you can't compete with this factory ammo" I honestly would have most likely left and said screw it to the whole thing. As a new person, that sounds ridiculous. Since, and thanks to the help of a lot of local shooters who have shown me great advice and charity, I've invested in a K frame, I have a single stage press, and I reload (slowly!). I still honestly do not like some of the IDPA rules or the mindset, but I plan on shooting it for this year. Simply put, the attitude of the shooters and ROs is what is encouraging me to shoot this year. But if the PF had initially barred me from participating, I wouldn't be here. Hopefully that sheds some light on a beginner's standpoint. Edited January 13, 2011 by Cd662 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strick Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Fair enough, and it seems that the last sentence seems to be a logical conclusion and was kinda my point. I am less concerned about a calibration rule or requirement other than steel should be set as light as possible for it remain standing until hit by a bullet. I think the bigger issue is whether setting it light enough for a 105pf round will enable it to remain set in all range conditions. And, yes, I will wait for an official announcement on any change to SSR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lugnut Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Good Morning, my AC explained that IDPA was supposed to be played by "big boy rules", meaning that we do not need a rule in order for everything to be fair. Hopefully, all of the MDs are up to this standard. I would like to think that I am. Yeah, it is much better to not have clear rules so that everything won't be fair. This is the thinking that...........nevermind. ... causes lots of confusion at matches where competitors travel hours and spend good money to compete... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ahab Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 They have bigger capacities with easier reloads, better triggers, better looking Them's fightin' words, son. In all seriousness, I don't think a lot of SSR shooters are going to come flying out of the woodwork. However, this makes the bar of entry for someone that wants to dabble in revo to do so, it makes it easier for the jillions of Ruger GP100 owners to play our game, etc. SSR is probably the easiest division to get into in terms of cost, so why not make it even easier? Besides, shooting revolvers makes you better at shooting everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astephenson Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Most folks just like autos better. They have bigger capacities with easier reloads, better triggers, better looking, cheaper ammo, available ammo, and newer technology being applied to them. Revolvers on their own don't have as much going for them as autos. Within the context of a speed game they are much further behind autos than they typically are.Having said that the PF reduction makes sense as it allows SSR to still function within IDPA's Principals of using off-the-shelf equipment. I agree with this. I toyed with the idea of SSR a while back and ended up buying a 686SSR and the whole kit. I shot it for a while, including a few majors- I have an SSR Division Champion plaque from one of those matches. I was the only SSR shooter there. I was the only SSR shooter at most of my local matches, too. After a while I decided to bring my SSP gun back out to play at a local match. I remember thinking "WOW this is EASY!" Don't have to reload nearly twice as often; no soot all over my hands after shooting a stage; no LONG, HEAVY double action trigger pull... Nowadays I have to either be in a particularly masochistic mood or know in advance that other folks are shooting SSR in order to bring my 686 out of the safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RePete Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 I shoot SSP, ESP and SSR. I'm going to start shooting CDP this year too. I prefer shooting a revolver and like WellArmedSheep, I'm quite often the only revolver shooter at the match. I just say "hey, I just won SSR!" after firing the first shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Koski Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 You could still get DQ'd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RePete Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 You could still get DQ'd. Yeah I know but I don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Koski Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Last year two of my local buddies shot in SSR and ESR at the Parma Idaho state match. Both ended up Div Champs. Neither are good shooters. (Why is this so funny to me?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Koski Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Holy crap. You guys weren't lying. http://idpaforum.yuku.com/topic/6941/Reduction-of-the-power-floor-for-SSR Reduction of the power floor for SSR IDPA recognizes the difficulty of finding off the shelf factory loaded .38 special ammunition that meets the the existing 125,000 power floor for SSR. Because of this difficulty, IDPA has decided to lower the power floor required for SSR to 105,000. The 105,000 power floor will allow more off the shelf brands of ammunition to meet the requirement for the SSR division. This change in power floor should allow IDPA members more opportunity to participate in the SSR division without having to invest in reloading equipment. This change in power floor will become effective on January 17th, 2011. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOF Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 (edited) Koski, Would we lie to you? Over the interweb... OMG... of all places! Of course we weren't lying to you. Some of us actually called IDPA HQ before we posted. It doesn't cost much to make the call and talk to Robert Ray. He's a very accomodating person. He won't lie to you. GOF Edited January 14, 2011 by GOF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ahab Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 Like I said on Gun Nuts, I think this is a net positive change. While I don't think that this will get a jillion SSR shooters out to matches, but I do think it will add some shooters, and a net gain is always a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DWFAN Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 Like I said on Gun Nuts, I think this is a net positive change. While I don't think that this will get a jillion SSR shooters out to matches, but I do think it will add some shooters, and a net gain is always a good thing. I agree. Now people wont be afraid to shoot factory .38 ammo at matches (most already did around my area) and now they can legally shoot a sanctioned or club match. (even though 4 of 6 sanctioned matches last year I shot had no Chrono anyways). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ahab Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 The other thing I like about it, for purely selfish reasons is that 130gr FMJ ball is super fast loading compared to say, 125gr JHP (my current load). It's a lot harder for a pointy-nose ball round to slam into the cylinder face and just stop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirveyr Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 It appears as if IDPA HQ is fixing things that people aren't too concerned about. Really? The SSR PF was at the top of this list of complaints by the paying membership? Whatever. It doesn't really matter to me as long as it helps to grow our sport. I just found it odd that IDPA HQ would choose SSR PF and aftermarket base pads in SSP to issue a ruling on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOF Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 SSR shooters aren't a major section of IDPA, but among them the PF issue has been very contentious. Many thought that it did seem to contradict the IDPA philosophy of competing with off the shelf equipment. SSP, CDP and ESP shooters could buy and shoot with just about any factory load, and even load them downward and still be legal. SSR shooters had only a couple of factory loads that would make the PF, and they were often hard to find, and expensive. Most had to load well above factory velocities, and many of the loads used by experienced shooters actually exceed reloading manual pressure data for .38 Spl+P. I think IDPA corrected what many felt was a discrepency in the Rules and I applaud them for the move. They stopped treating SSR shooters like stepchildren and let them play on the same level equipment field as the rest of the kids. GOF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Watson Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 The other thing I like about it, for purely selfish reasons is that 130gr FMJ ball is super fast loading compared to say, 125gr JHP (my current load). It's a lot harder for a pointy-nose ball round to slam into the cylinder face and just stop. Be careful which brand you buy. WWB 130 gr FMJ is cataloged at 800 fps, f= 104,000; UMC at 790 fps, f= 102,700 AE is better, claims 890 fps, f= 115,700. Real gun velocities will vary but not usually higher than advertised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOF Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 (edited) Ahab, Try anyone's 158 LRN standard velocity load. They'll make PF from any 4-inch barrel gun and a LRN loads like lightning! Recoil is soft, and a non-factor compared to the 130 grain loads. GOF Edited January 15, 2011 by GOF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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