Chills1994 Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 as far as shooting .45 AutoRim out of a 625, whoops...I forgot about that option. I have heard that supposedly speedloaders for .45 Long Colt will work....sorta... will a 625 make the weight cutoff for SSR? not to get all Bill Clinton on you....but what is the definition of caliber "is is"? is caliber the bore diameter? does it need to be better spelled out? like USPSA does with the 3 gun rifle minimum caliber rule? IIRC, the rulebook says .224" diameter so that automatically eliminates any of that Comm Bloc 5.45X39mm ammo how many IDPA'ers are shooting .40SandW through their 10mm revolvers or semi-autos? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 (Most) All who are "shooters" knows that the advantages of a lower PF are mainly imaginary. IMO - As a generalization - The only people who seem to worry about a few point in the PF are those with little shooting experience. The time it takes for the sights to settle with a 170 pf load vs a 105 pf is maybe .05, at most. So 18 shots is less than a second difference..? I won the SSR Division at the 2010 Alabama State IDPA Championship by less than .50 second. In a 180 shot match, .05 second per split would have cost me over 5 seconds, thus the match. My "comparison" used the difference im my average splits between a USPSA major and USPSA minor load. I will guess that the difference in a 135PF and ~110 PF load would be somewhat less.... Perhaps a lazier load would let you get back on target quicker....... Anyway. Everyone who made it to whatever level will soon be able to look with disdain at those who reach the same level and be able to tell them.... Back when the power floor was 125 it took a Real Man to handle the recoil..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOF Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 (edited) There is room to play with the reduced PF. Lesser recoil... quicker time back to the 0 Zone... yes. Going too light may impact performance on steel/poppers. I will be loading for a 115-120 pf (158 LRN at an average of 740), and the recoil difference between that and a 840 fps load (safe chrono load under previous IDPA PF)is significant enough to improve one's score. I suspect that Bones,Ken,Claude and Cliff will be doing some new load development (I've already done mine).... and after shooting a 130-135... a 115 (plenty of chrono cushion)is a lot softer/faster. That, however, is for the "gamers" (and I proudly class myself in that group). BUT, the big factor is that it will no longer require a SSR shooter to be a reloader. They can now buy legal loads over the counter. As to attracting new SSR shooters, that makes the game very user friendly. I think 105 may have been a bit light, but I applaud IDPA HQ for addressing and issue that has, IMHO, been a controversay in the past. I believe, but do not know for a fact, that they are also looking at the ESR PF. I think someone in Berryville has finally realized that asking a .45 ACP/moon clip revo from a four-inch vented barrel to make the same PF as someone shooting a five-inch non-vented 1911, isn't quite right. That may be, although I do not know, the next issue addressed. GOF Edited January 12, 2011 by GOF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregg K Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 I believe, but do not know for a fact, that they are also looking at the ESR PF. I think someone in Berryville has finally realized that asking a .45 ACP/moon clip revo from a four-inch vented barrel to make the same PF as someone shooting a five-inch non-vented 1911, isn't quite right. That may be, although I do not know, the next issue addressed. GOF I don't know what excuse could be made for that since most of what you buy off the shelf has a PF of 190 or more. Winchester white box is 192. The rounds that I carry make 230PF. The 1911's barrel is measured including the chamber and an ESR gun is measured just the barrel so a 4" revolver has about the same amount of actual barrel as a 5" 1911. You don't loose much between the two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steel1212 Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 (edited) There is room to play with the reduced PF. Lesser recoil... quicker time back to the 0 Zone... yes. Going too light may impact performance on steel/poppers. I will be loading for a 115-120 pf (158 LRN at an average of 740), and the recoil difference between that and a 840 fps load (safe chrono load under previous IDPA PF)is significant enough to improve one's score. I suspect that Bones,Ken,Claude and Cliff will be doing some new load development (I've already done mine).... and after shooting a 130-135... a 115 (plenty of chrono cushion)is a lot softer/faster. That, however, is for the "gamers" (and I proudly class myself in that group). BUT, the big factor is that it will no longer require a SSR shooter to be a reloader. They can now buy legal loads over the counter. As to attracting new SSR shooters, that makes the game very user friendly. I think 105 may have been a bit light, but I applaud IDPA HQ for addressing and issue that has, IMHO, been a controversay in the past. I believe, but do not know for a fact, that they are also looking at the ESR PF. I think someone in Berryville has finally realized that asking a .45 ACP/moon clip revo from a four-inch vented barrel to make the same PF as someone shooting a five-inch non-vented 1911, isn't quite right. That may be, although I do not know, the next issue addressed. GOF I think the main issue though is dropping poppers at 105 PF. You have several here that stated they will have popper specific ammo. Well the guys wanting to use older model guns that are only chambered for 38 special won't be able to use factory ammo that barely makes 105 PF to use Popper specific ammo as their guns "theoretically" can't handle the pressure. As for it being labeled the "Wuss" division if you hear of anybody saying that, kindly offer them your gun and gear and ask them to come play. Chances are they won't but if they do I bet they'll like it! Edited January 12, 2011 by steel1212 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrBorland Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 kindly offer them your gun and gear and ask them to come play. Chances are they won't but if they do I bet they'll like it! PF aside, I've got an extra rig, so I already did that, here and here. No takers yet, but it is an open invitation, and it'll get regular bumps, so I'm optimistic. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOF Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 Gregg, My guess is that you are not using factory ammo in your ESR gun. Have you chroned the same load in a five-inch 1911 .45 ACP and the same load in a 4 inch 625 .45 ACP? GOF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregg K Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 Gregg, My guess is that you are not using factory ammo in your ESR gun. Have you chroned the same load in a five-inch 1911 .45 ACP and the same load in a 4 inch 625 .45 ACP? GOF No factory load for me in my ESR. I hand load for the same reason as the CDP guys, it's cheaper and it's softer and easier to compete with. I have to load .2 more powder in my ESR gun to match the velocity from my 5" 1911. The effective barrel is about the same but you still have to make up for what you loose at the barrel cylinder gap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lugnut Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 There is room to play with the reduced PF. Lesser recoil... quicker time back to the 0 Zone... yes. Going too light may impact performance on steel/poppers. I will be loading for a 115-120 pf (158 LRN at an average of 740), and the recoil difference between that and a 840 fps load (safe chrono load under previous IDPA PF)is significant enough to improve one's score. I suspect that Bones,Ken,Claude and Cliff will be doing some new load development (I've already done mine).... and after shooting a 130-135... a 115 (plenty of chrono cushion)is a lot softer/faster. That, however, is for the "gamers" (and I proudly class myself in that group). BUT, the big factor is that it will no longer require a SSR shooter to be a reloader. They can now buy legal loads over the counter. As to attracting new SSR shooters, that makes the game very user friendly. I think 105 may have been a bit light, but I applaud IDPA HQ for addressing and issue that has, IMHO, been a controversay in the past. I believe, but do not know for a fact, that they are also looking at the ESR PF. I think someone in Berryville has finally realized that asking a .45 ACP/moon clip revo from a four-inch vented barrel to make the same PF as someone shooting a five-inch non-vented 1911, isn't quite right. That may be, although I do not know, the next issue addressed. GOF I think the main issue though is dropping poppers at 105 PF. You have several here that stated they will have popper specific ammo. Well the guys wanting to use older model guns that are only chambered for 38 special won't be able to use factory ammo that barely makes 105 PF to use Popper specific ammo as their guns "theoretically" can't handle the pressure. As for it being labeled the "Wuss" division if you hear of anybody saying that, kindly offer them your gun and gear and ask them to come play. Chances are they won't but if they do I bet they'll like it! I would think MDs would have to ensure that poppers will drop with a center hit from ALL loads. If the poppers don't drop with a center hit that is a problem IMO. If you pass chrono- one center hit a popper better damn well drop it. On the wuss division stuff.... great idea! We either have big balls or are crazy... I think it's the hardest division to compete in. Good reloading has a whole new meaning... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gr7070 Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 (edited) I think the main issue though is dropping poppers at 105 PF. You have several here that stated they will have popper specific ammo. Well the guys wanting to use older model guns that are only chambered for 38 special won't be able to use factory ammo that barely makes 105 PF to use Popper specific ammo as their guns "theoretically" can't handle the pressure. As for it being labeled the "Wuss" division if you hear of anybody saying that, kindly offer them your gun and gear and ask them to come play. Chances are they won't but if they do I bet they'll like it! I'm new to SSR from last fall. I've shot a handful of IDPA matches and have also shot two other home grown handgun competitions (that use a majority of steel). I shoot whatever I can find at Walmart, Academy, and a few other local gun stores - 38 special of any variety isn't easy to find, though it seems to be improving. Most of my shooting has probably been with Remington (a green and white box) and WWB both of which are sub-105 per the box data - I shoot a 4" 686. I haven't had any issues whatsoever knocking down steel. Not that that's a huge sample size, but from what I've seen 105 doesn't appear to have an issue with steel??? Edited January 12, 2011 by gr7070 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike cyrwus Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 105pf? Sweet!! I wont have to change a thing.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 105pf? Sweet!! I wont have to change a thing.. OK wise ass.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RePete Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 I would think MDs would have to ensure that poppers will drop with a center hit from ALL loads. If the poppers don't drop with a center hit that is a problem IMO. If you pass chrono- one center hit a popper better damn well drop it. Why? There isn't a procedure nor a requirement to calibrate poppers. The poppers do fall at a 125000 PF from 35 meters. Be careful what you wish for because you may get more than you can chew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOF Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Good point. A 105 PF may sound sweet on cardboard, but reality may enter the picture at some point, and the reality is that there is no calibration required on steel in IDPA. Steel till it falls! GOF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Koski Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 (edited) IDPA, Please don't curse us with bitching because steel won't fall due to 105.1 PF ammo. Edited January 13, 2011 by Steve Koski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lugnut Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 I would think MDs would have to ensure that poppers will drop with a center hit from ALL loads. If the poppers don't drop with a center hit that is a problem IMO. If you pass chrono- one center hit a popper better damn well drop it. Why? There isn't a procedure nor a requirement to calibrate poppers. The poppers do fall at a 125000 PF from 35 meters. Be careful what you wish for because you may get more than you can chew. Not sure what you mean about getting more than I wish for. Regardless- how can you possibly have a match where a shot in the center of the calibration zone with a gun with 105pf loads doesn't drop the poppers? If you did you would have a lot of pissed of competitors. What the heck good is steel if you have to hammer it down with three shots while shooting SSR? I've never heard of this. No calibration procedure or not- I've seen top shooters blow gaskets because steel didn't drop with a center hit. They got a reshoot and I think that was reasonable. I have no issue with lowering the PF- but THIS issue is huge IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RePete Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 I would think MDs would have to ensure that poppers will drop with a center hit from ALL loads. If the poppers don't drop with a center hit that is a problem IMO. If you pass chrono- one center hit a popper better damn well drop it. Why? There isn't a procedure nor a requirement to calibrate poppers. The poppers do fall at a 125000 PF from 35 meters. Be careful what you wish for because you may get more than you can chew. Not sure what you mean about getting more than I wish for. Regardless- how can you possibly have a match where a shot in the center of the calibration zone with a gun with 105pf loads doesn't drop the poppers? If you did you would have a lot of pissed of competitors. What the heck good is steel if you have to hammer it down with three shots while shooting SSR? I've never heard of this. No calibration procedure or not- I've seen top shooters blow gaskets because steel didn't drop with a center hit. They got a reshoot and I think that was reasonable. I have no issue with lowering the PF- but THIS issue is huge IMO. Wanting the PF lowered so that you can use factory, but the downside will be steel still standing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lugnut Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Wanting the PF lowered so that you can use factory, but the downside will be steel still standing. Ohh. I'm not for or against it personally. I'm a wuss and like "minor" type loads so I'd be fine shooting 105pf bunny fart loads.... that being said I think it may cause more problems than it "fixes". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregg K Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Wanting the PF lowered so that you can use factory, but the downside will be steel still standing. Ohh. I'm not for or against it personally. I'm a wuss and like "minor" type loads so I'd be fine shooting 105pf bunny fart loads.... that being said I think it may cause more problems than it "fixes". Now you're talking, the best fix for all these new problems is to leave it like it is. It seems funny, the .40 and .45 guys are downloading to get to the specified power factor and the .38 Special guys are loading heavy to get to the specified PF. The only ones that don't have to do anything are the 9mm folks but they are loading to find an even softer load. I really don't see a need to "fix" anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 I'm not seeing the steel NOT falling as that big of a deal or problem. methinks it is going to be a bigger problem when the CDP, ESP, and/or SSP guys are up to shoot and the slightest breeze knocks the popper over. how many newbies (nonreloaders) are there anticipated to start flying out of the woodwork with their .38 Specials and two boxes of factory ammo? Said another way...are there really that many disenfranchised newb wheelgunners who are sitting at home on the match days biting their lips and saying "But if only IDPA would lower their power factor floor I could finally start shooting IDPA....(sigh)"??? methinks if you're gonna start out brand new and cut your teeth in IDPA, the shallower learning curve would be to pick up a Glock 17 and some WWB 9mm that does actually make PF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RePete Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 I'm not seeing the steel NOT falling as that big of a deal or problem. methinks it is going to be a bigger problem when the CDP, ESP, and/or SSP guys are up to shoot and the slightest breeze knocks the popper over. how many newbies (nonreloaders) are there anticipated to start flying out of the woodwork with their .38 Specials and two boxes of factory ammo? Said another way...are there really that many disenfranchised newb wheelgunners who are sitting at home on the match days biting their lips and saying "But if only IDPA would lower their power factor floor I could finally start shooting IDPA....(sigh)"??? methinks if you're gonna start out brand new and cut your teeth in IDPA, the shallower learning curve would be to pick up a Glock 17 and some WWB 9mm that does actually make PF. A revolver isn't good gun to learn to shoot IDPA, as Chills said, a G17/M&P are the dogs bollocks to learn with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Koski Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 So what is the source of this SSR 105 PF rumor? The Interweb? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 I dunno ....(shrugs shoulders) I think you're on the IDPAforum.com website more than I am. I figured if it was gonna be slipped anywhere it would have been there first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samuel Adams Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 I'm torn on this issue. I have a friend reload ammo for me using 160gr Billy Bullets making 130 PF. Before he started, I shot 158gr lead store bought Magtech ammo and had no problem knocking down poppers. The heavier bullet still does the trick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CDPMatt Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 But back to my original question, and I know a couple have answered it, would the 15PF reduction help your shooting? I'll answer.... NO, I don't think it'll help my shooting much at all. I shoot ESR when I shoot Revo but have dabbled in SSR for a season or two and the 135PF loads I shoot out of my K-frame already feel so soft compared to the 625 I can't imagine 105 being a big difference. Besides, I'll still load to 15pf over as to avoid issues at Chrono's (yes we run a chrono here in Arkansas). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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