New SSR power factor

[RePete]

Ask yourself if the lower PF (assuming 105000) will knock down a popper that's used to activate a swinger/turner etc. - forward or rearward falling - at 25 - 35 meters. I don't think it will.

When was the last time you saw a popper at 25 yards in an IDPA match?

Last summer on more than one occasion. The 3 previous summers too.

[Duane Thomas]

So you don't thing anybody is down loading 40 and 45s in ssp?

Good point. I've changed my post to reflect ESP and SSP. Thanks for catching that.

If there is no minor pf then why is there a random chrono?

I'm saying that in IDPA we don't have Major/Minor scoring, we have a power floor that you must make to be competing in each division.You just have to make the power floor, you either do or you don't, it's not a matter of "If you're at this power factor your points on target score Major, if you're at this power factor your hits score Minor."

[steel1212]

Right but you still have to make pf per the division you are shooting in. I don't under stand what this has to do with the lowering of the pf though. I do understand though that if there is a popper at range it would be hard to make it fall.

[Duane Thomas]

I was just commenting on the post that mentioned IDPA's Minor power factor. There is no such thing.

[steel1212]

I was just commenting on the post that mentioned IDPA's Minor power factor. There is no such thing.

Well I mean there kind of is. Its just not the same as USPSA verbiage. SSP, ESP, and ESR have to make the power factor for their divisions which is considered minor PF every where else. So no technically its not called minor in IDPA its just making PF but it is else where.

[freeidaho]

So I guess we now have major, minor and neglible....

kr

[steel1212]

But back to my original question, and I know a couple have answered it, would the 15PF reduction help your shooting? I know I don't like how autos cycle at 125 so I load them up to the upper 130s. A revo doesn't cycle anything, its kind of like a bolt gun so I'm guessing it would actually help. I'm talking just about shooting not the guns that can now compete.

[Duane Thomas]

Well I mean there kind of is. Its just not the same as USPSA verbiage.

I think it's an important distinction. I have read a book with a chapter on IDPA that talked at length about IDPA's Major/Minor scoring system, and how the Glock 35 was the perfect gun for the game because you could load it to Major when you couldn't do that with the 34 - all written by someone who had never fired a single IDPA match, natch. I just think it's important to keep the two terminologies separate, and not talk about an IDPA Minor power factor that doesn't exist, which could lead some people who don't know the sport that well to think we have a Major/Minor scoring system - which we don't.

[Chills1994]

if a guy does reload, how hard is it to make the 125,000 power factor floor with .357 magnum brass?

how about making the 165,000 power factor floor with the same .357 magnum brass?

I am just wondering about the viability of shooting a 686 in both ESR and SSR.

I am ASSuming all you die hard wheelgun guys have a dedicated .38/.357 for SSR and then something like a 625 or a 610 for ESR.

Edited January 12, 2011 by Chills1994

[steel1212]

Well I mean there kind of is. Its just not the same as USPSA verbiage.

I think it's an important distinction. I have read a book with a chapter on IDPA that talked at length about IDPA's Major/Minor scoring system, and how the Glock 35 was the perfect gun for the game because you could load it to Major when you couldn't do that with the 34 - all written by someone who had never fired a single IDPA match, natch. I just think it's important to keep the two terminologies separate, and not talk about an IDPA Minor power factor that doesn't exist, which could lead some people who don't know the sport that well to think we have a Major/Minor scoring system - which we don't.

With the same thinking though if you say IDPA doesn't have a minor PF then most people but the more experienced IDPAers are going to think there isn't a power factor minimum for each division.

[steel1212]

if a guy does reload, how hard is it to make the 125,000 power factor floor with .357 magnum brass?

how about making the 165,000 power factor floor with the same .357 magnum brass?

I am just wondering about the viability of shooting a 686 in both ESR and SSR.

I am ASSuming all you die hard wheelgun guys have a dedicated .38/.357 for SSR and then something like a 625 or a 610 for ESR.

I haven't reloaded 357 magnum yet so I can't tell you but I can make minor with 38 special brass and a 158. I don't know that I would want to shoot a whole match shooting 357 mags

[RePete]

So I guess we now have major, minor and neglible....

kr

Or it could be Major, Minor and Maybe.

if a guy does reload, how hard is it to make the 125,000 power factor floor with .357 magnum brass?

how about making the 165,000 power factor floor with the same .357 magnum brass?

I am just wondering about the viability of shooting a 686 in both ESR and SSR.

I am ASSuming all you die hard wheelgun guys have a dedicated .38/.357 for SSR and then something like a 625 or a 610 for ESR.

Making 125000 with .357 brass isn't a problem, just use a nice fluffy powder to try and prevent a double charge.

165000 on the other hand, you may want to think N-Frame rather than L-Frame.

[MrBorland]

An official announcement hasn't even been made yet, but I'm already starting to read suggestions here and on the IDPA forum, that SSR will be the "wuss division". Folks, the ruling would be intended to encourage new shooters to try SSR or even encourage IDPA participation in general by using a gun they already have and/or ammo that's readily available.

It'll be a sad irony, then, if any positive effects of the ruling are negated when new shooters quickly catch on to the whispers, innuendo and flat-out whining. And it'll be an even sadder irony that some of these whispers come from wheelgunners themselves. Worse yet, their whispers and innuendo may end up stigmatizing the division (or their own?!) to the point where we start losing wheelgunners. I mean, who wants all their hard work simply dismissed out of hand by others because it's presumed they shot lower PF ammo and presumed they could only get their good results by shooting it?

From this point on, I suggest we, wheelgunners in particular, be very aware of what we say and write on the matter, since these may have as much effect on participation as the ruling itself.

My $0.02

Tom

[pvhendrix]

An official announcement hasn't even been made yet, but I'm already starting to read suggestions here and on the IDPA forum, that SSR will be the "wuss division". Folks, the ruling would be intended to encourage new shooters to try SSR or even encourage IDPA participation in general by using a gun they already have and/or ammo that's readily available.

It'll be a sad irony, then, if any positive effects of the ruling are negated when new shooters quickly catch on to the whispers, innuendo and flat-out whining. And it'll be an even sadder irony that some of these whispers come from wheelgunners themselves. Worse yet, their whispers and innuendo may end up stigmatizing the division (or their own?!) to the point where we start losing wheelgunners. I mean, who wants all their hard work simply dismissed out of hand by others because it's presumed they shot lower PF ammo and presumed they could only get their good results by shooting it?

From this point on, I suggest we, wheelgunners in particular, be very aware of what we say and write on the matter, since these may have as much effect on participation as the ruling itself.

My $0.02

Tom

EXTREMELY well said/written!

[jmorris]

In SSR it's not legal to use rimless auto pistol cartridges since the guns must feed out of speedloaders.Those using a .40 or .45 in Enhanced Service Revolver must load to at least a 165,000 power factor. No one in IDPA is downloading .40 or .45 to 125,000 anywhere other than Enhanced Service Pistol and Stock Service Pistol - and that's just a handful of people - and we're not talking about ESP or SSP here.

Seems like you could do it with 45 autorim easy enough.

[lugnut]

With some time and practice I am quite sure that the reduced PF will enable shooters to shoot faster. Most certainly. I haven't been shooting my SSR gun much lately and the other day I got a chance to fire some rounds. I was surprised how slow I felt.... I load mine to over 130. I've shot my friend's factory loads... much different!!

[Jim Watson]

But can you use .45 Auto Rim? The Rules Addendum states:

(SSR) "Ammunition used

must match the caliber listed on the gun. The only

exceptions would be: .38 special in .357 magnum, .44

special in .44 magnum."

So what is the caliber marked on a 625? I find one picture showing a .45 ACP rollmark.

As to choice of ammunition for the non-reloader SSR shooter, care would still be required.

The usual WWB at Cheapmart is a 130 jacketed or plated bullet at a catalog velocity of 800 fps, f= 104,000 Oops.

The UMC 130 at dickies only rates 790 fps, f= 102,700 worse yet.

If you could find some Federal 130s, they are claimed to make 890 fps, f= 115,700 which allows a safety margin for real revolvers instead of a test rig.

Old style 158 grain lead at a book velocity of 755 fps these days, f= 119,290 would be fine. But not every store carries them and not every shooter wants to sully his barrel with lead bullets.

[Merlin Orr]

(Most) All who are "shooters" knows that the advantages of a lower PF are mainly imaginary. IMO - As a generalization - The only people who seem to worry about a few point in the PF are those with little shooting experience. The time it takes for the sights to settle with a 170 pf load vs a 105 pf is maybe .05, at most. So 18 shots is less than a second difference..? The time to complete a COF is a result of a wide range of skill sets and not going to substantially change with a difference in PF..

I know that a lot of the guys don't worry with trying to find the "+.001" over the lower limit load and instead develop a load that burns clean and lets the gun run and react well.

The change (if it happens) will set off a wide verbal barrage from some of the shooters. I think the ones that cry and bitch the loudest will be the same ones who spend all their time worrying about how to ensure other shooters are not somehow doing something different or somehow "cheating" rather than working on their own game. You can't stop this mentality from that group....but you can ignore it.

My current load is around 135-140 pf because I shoot better there - But - I am going to set up the Classification Course and shoot it with the "old and new" pf ammo and see if it makes a difference in my shooting.

.02 from a middle of the pack shooter.

[RePete]

An official announcement hasn't even been made yet, but I'm already starting to read suggestions here and on the IDPA forum, that SSR will be the "wuss division". Folks, the ruling would be intended to encourage new shooters to try SSR or even encourage IDPA participation in general by using a gun they already have and/or ammo that's readily available.

It'll be a sad irony, then, if any positive effects of the ruling are negated when new shooters quickly catch on to the whispers, innuendo and flat-out whining. And it'll be an even sadder irony that some of these whispers come from wheelgunners themselves. Worse yet, their whispers and innuendo may end up stigmatizing the division (or their own?!) to the point where we start losing wheelgunners. I mean, who wants all their hard work simply dismissed out of hand by others because it's presumed they shot lower PF ammo and presumed they could only get their good results by shooting it?

From this point on, I suggest we, wheelgunners in particular, be very aware of what we say and write on the matter, since these may have as much effect on participation as the ruling itself.

My $0.02

Tom

Nicely done Tom.

I shoot SSR at 132000 PF and am not about to change a combo that I like.

I disagree that SSR will/may be tthe "wuss" division, but you will certainly need to know the limitations of a 105000 PF.

I stand by what I said earlier.

Edited January 12, 2011 by RePete

[SauconValley Shooter]

Good Afternoon,

Quite a while ago, Bones told me that when I get closer to SSR Master, getting closer to the minimum power factor will be important. As a SSR EX, I feel that I am getting to that point, and I will certainly experiment with lowering my current 135ish PF loads.

Someone already posted that they checked their times with lower PF ammunition and the times were faster. Shooting faster than everyone else is how you win. (while not dropping lots of points) To all of the people stating that they will not be lowering their loads - thank you!

[RePete]

Good Afternoon,

Quite a while ago, Bones told me that when I get closer to SSR Master, getting closer to the minimum power factor will be important. As a SSR EX, I feel that I am getting to that point, and I will certainly experiment with lowering my current 135ish PF loads.

Someone already posted that they checked their times with lower PF ammunition and the times were faster. Shooting faster than everyone else is how you win. (while not dropping lots of points) To all of the people stating that they will not be lowering their loads - thank you!

You're welcome Ken, but when you stop dropping poppers, I'll laugh aloud.

[CRDB]

For poppers I'll use mission spec ammo (125pf)

[MrBorland]

I disagree that SSR will/may be tthe "wuss" division, but you will certainly need to know the limitations of a 105000 PF.

I'm not so much speculating or concerned that SSR will be the wuss division as much as I am that it may get stigmatized as that, which almost certainly would be harmful to it's growth. It seems to me a possibility we ought to at least be aware of.

Tom

[HeadHunter]

I would think the reduced ejection stroke of a 2-1/2" wheelie would not be effective for IDPA.

I ran a 2" Model 10 all last year, including the Nationals and didn't have a problem with it. I was using my standard IDPA load that makes PF out of a 4" gun.

But I only use clean nickel brass and blue steel guns for matches.

[HeadHunter]

(Most) All who are "shooters" knows that the advantages of a lower PF are mainly imaginary. IMO - As a generalization - The only people who seem to worry about a few point in the PF are those with little shooting experience. The time it takes for the sights to settle with a 170 pf load vs a 105 pf is maybe .05, at most. So 18 shots is less than a second difference..?

I won the SSR Division at the 2010 Alabama State IDPA Championship by less than .50 second. In a 180 shot match, .05 second per split would have cost me over 5 seconds, thus the match.

Edited January 12, 2011 by HeadHunter