Saiga discussion

[dcloudy777]

The Saiga shotguns are becoming more and more prevalent in open class, and now that the aftermarket for them is spooling up, more and more popular as defensive guns. I don't think you could let them into "tactical/limited" class with 10, 12, and even higher capacity mags. But how about with a 5-round magazine limit? The poll question is: Does a 5-round detachable-mag gun have "equipment parity" with a traditional 9-round tube-fed gun? Reloading is faster, but would have to be done more often. What say you? Disclaimer: I'm not trying to make waves, get any rules changed, or God forbid "level any sort of playing field" ... just wanting to start some discussion.

DanO

Edited October 1, 2010 by dcloudy777

[Jesse Tischauser]

I like the idea. I would enjoy trying a saiga.

[Corey]

I like the idea. I would enjoy trying a saiga.

then go shoot Open, haha.

I personally dont like the idea. wanna shoot a Saiga, shoot open. leave the others for tube guns

[Stlhead]

I say leave them in open as well, but get rid of the silly 10 round in the mag rule. Open is open, (or so it should be).

[outerlimits]

once uspsa eliminates the L-10 open shotguns, i suspect shooting open will have to be saigas...

[SinistralRifleman]

People are scared of their equipment being made obsolete over night vs gradually over the course of years as happens anyway. I don't think this is necessarily justified. When I have had heads up results (in total time format) vs people hand loading tubes, the shooters with more skill still won.

For example, at least years Shotgun only match Kelly Neal was first with 141.27 seconds, and I was second over all with 161.79. I was using a 20 round drum and 9 round mags for reloads. He was using a Tactical division gun with 9 rounds in the tube and iron sights.

We also allowed the option of Mag-Fed tactical division (iron sights with 10 rounds or less in mags) and no one signed up for it because regular 3 gun rules force them into open anyway, so they might as well set their guns up for full on open.

For what its worth, I am back to shooting a Benelli M3 at least through SMM3G in Tactical Iron/Red Dot/BUIS. My original Saiga got shot to death after 4 years and 9,000 rounds, and I don't see the point in putting miles on my remaining Saiga-12 unless I am prepping for a match with Trooper at it.

Edited October 2, 2010 by SinistralRifleman

[Bill Sahlberg]

I say leave them in open as well, but get rid of the silly 10 round in the mag rule. Open is open, (or so it should be).

Let Open shotguns be Open shotguns......not Limited Open, like it is now with a +2 advantage overLimited and HM with a 11 rnd count....that is like making a Limited 40 pistol only be able to carry 13 rnds, they were originally designed are mfg to carry more!

[smokshwn]

I like the idea. I would enjoy trying a saiga.

then go shoot Open, haha.

I personally dont like the idea. wanna shoot a Saiga, shoot open. leave the others for tube guns

This is the same arguement that would have you shooting a singlestack 45 with 7 round mags.....in limited

[Corey]

I like the idea. I would enjoy trying a saiga.

then go shoot Open, haha.

I personally dont like the idea. wanna shoot a Saiga, shoot open. leave the others for tube guns

This is the same arguement that would have you shooting a singlestack 45 with 7 round mags.....in limited

you're not supposed to do that?!?! oops!

[Trail3]

Leave the Saiga in open.

Some states do not allow the Saiga's in a competition set up.

CA needs a bullet button on the mag release.

[zero-down]

I think it would be an interesting battle if the Saigas could not have any external modifications such as a magwell or extended mag release. If they had to seat the mags as the Russians intended and could only start the stage with 6 in the gun, it could balance out. Plus it would be funny watching people trying to move with 6+ mags hanging all over them for a long stage in addition to pistol and rifle mags.

[Jack T]

I say leave them in open as well, but get rid of the silly 10 round in the mag rule. Open is open, (or so it should be).

Absolutely, Open is Open, let'em run!!. This is what inspires testing, development and new products. What's the point if you have restrictions on the equipment? But still, it ain't the arrow, it's the indian.

Jack Travers

JT Engieering

[35WLN]

5 or 6 round max is just silly. Most target arrays are 8.

[GorillaTactical]

I don't see a problem with a Saiga running in Tactical Class....so long as they fit within the guidelines that all the tube guns have to...

No Comp/Ported Barrel

8+1 Max capacity

No red dot

(and any other basic tenets I am missing)

The advantage Saiga's have in loading time would be evened out over stages that are longer...as someone previously mentioned, people would have to carry a bunch of extra mags haha...

What I'm getting at is that people who load from shell caddies and who are good at it, can TOP OFF THEIR GUN between short moves from array to array without losing any time...if saiga users do that, they have to dump half a loaded mag...on longer stages, Saiga guys won't be able to reload whenever they want because they won't have the luxury of being able to drop half a mag between each array...they would run outta ammo ...they would have to basically shoot the gun dry then reload which as we all known takes much longer.

Another disadvantage of the Saiga is its ability to switch ammo types...unlike a tube gun, the saiga requires a full mag change...or burning of several rounds...I think that is another place tube guns still have the advantage.

Edited October 11, 2010 by GorillaTactical

[nickforney]

People are scared of their equipment being made obsolete over night vs gradually over the course of years as happens anyway. I don't think this is necessarily justified. When I have had heads up results (in total time format) vs people hand loading tubes, the shooters with more skill still won.

For example, at least years Shotgun only match Kelly Neal was first with 141.27 seconds, and I was second over all with 161.79. I was using a 20 round drum and 9 round mags for reloads. He was using a Tactical division gun with 9 rounds in the tube and iron sights.

We also allowed the option of Mag-Fed tactical division (iron sights with 10 rounds or less in mags) and no one signed up for it because regular 3 gun rules force them into open anyway, so they might as well set their guns up for full on open.

For what its worth, I am back to shooting a Benelli M3 at least through SMM3G in Tactical Iron/Red Dot/BUIS. My original Saiga got shot to death after 4 years and 9,000 rounds, and I don't see the point in putting miles on my remaining Saiga-12 unless I am prepping for a match with Trooper at it.

I found it interesting you mentioned your M3. I have an M3S90 and don't ever remember seeing anyone shooting 3 gun with one. Mind telling any modifications you might have one it?

As far as the saiga with limited mag. I don't see it being worth the added weight and reload time as mentioned before. It is in open to use the strengths it has in a limited catagory it wouldn't be able to use its strengths.

[SinistralRifleman]

If anyone wants to meet up at Rio Salado sometime to run some reload speed tests with the Saiga, I'm game. I think the faster I ever got shot to shot with rock and lock mags was 4 seconds. If you are reloading for less than 3 shells its not an advantage vs most shooters. If there is movement, it is less of an advantage.

The Saiga becomes a definitive advantage on stages lacking movement OR stages that test the shooters physical endurance and fine motor skills degrade and become slower. Environmental factors also make it an advantage; if it is cold or rainy I'd much rather reload with a magazine.

I found it interesting you mentioned your M3. I have an M3S90 and don't ever remember seeing anyone shooting 3 gun with one. Mind telling any modifications you might have one it?

I haven't done anything to it really, I will add the Mesa Tactical Urbino stock when its out because I prefer a short LOP. It holds 8+1. I do wish I could find a high vis fiber optic front post to replace the factory one.

Edited October 12, 2010 by SinistralRifleman

[Mark K]

If anyone wants to meet up at Rio Salado sometime to run some reload speed tests with the Saiga, I'm game. I think the faster I ever got shot to shot with rock and lock mags was 4 seconds. If you are reloading for less than 3 shells its not an advantage vs most shooters. If there is movement, it is less of an advantage.

The Saiga becomes a definitive advantage on stages lacking movement OR stages that test the shooters physical endurance and fine motor skills degrade and become slower. Environmental factors also make it an advantage; if it is cold or rainy I'd much rather reload with a magazine.

I found it interesting you mentioned your M3. I have an M3S90 and don't ever remember seeing anyone shooting 3 gun with one. Mind telling any modifications you might have one it?

I haven't done anything to it really, I will add the Mesa Tactical Urbino stock when its out because I prefer a short LOP. It holds 8+1. I do wish I could find a high vis fiber optic front post to replace the factory one.

I think you will find better reload times with the modified Saiga's that eliminate the rock and lock mag method. My reason for going with Saiga, and putting up with being in Open as a result, was that I have limited range/dryfire time for practice, and it was far easier for me to go with a R&R Saiga, with an AR type reload (straight in and out)than to build the tactical shotgun or Open load tube skill set. Shooting a Saiga then becomes only slightly different than shooting an AR, especially once tricked out with AR style mag release, and safety.

My opinion, drop the 10 rd limit on open, and leave it in tactical, but let Saiga in Tactical.

Just a fun 3-gun shooter, so just my opinion.

Mark K.

[Alaskapopo]

I have an R&R targets Saiga and I love it. I thing the huge advantage other than reloading speed is the fact you can shoot it like a rifle. Meaning you don't have to be quite as slow on your shots because you fear a miss which requires another reload. With the Saiga if you miss no big deal just pull the trigger again there are plenty more rounds in the mag where that one came from. I was the first one in my state to have a Saiga for three gun and it made it easy to dominate other open shooters using speed loaders. There is no comparison. I would not like to be limited to 6 rounds however. I think Saiga's should stay open but they should change the rules to allow me to load my mags full. I agree that limited 10 open shotgun is stupid. Even at my level I can reload my Saiga pretty fast. That is even with me forgetting to count rounds and having a click then having to rack the bolt after inserting a fresh mag. The R&R magazine release is the bomb. It is so slick. Rob can reload in under 2 seconds. So in my opinion tube guns even open tube guns can't compete.

Pat

Edited October 13, 2010 by Alaskapopo

[Mike P]

I say let them into tactical with the same round restrictions as tube guns, 8+1, then see how they hold up.

[StealthyBlagga]

The proposed 5+1 capacity limit is incompatible with typical 3-gun stages that are designed to be 8+1-neutral. This would likely mean lots of standing reloads. I would predict stage designers putting a lot of 13-round stages into matches, maybe with a select-slug at the beginning, middle and end .

I would be OK about allowing iron-sighted Saiga 12s into Tactical with an 8+1 limit, but score them separately. For example, you could allow Saiga 12s with 8+1 into Tactical Scope, but restrict Tactical Limited to tube fed shotguns only. At SMM3G we do something similar already in Heavy Metal; HM Scope allows any tube fed 12ga, but HM Limited requires a manually operated shotgun (pump).

[PJ BAD]

I say leave them in open as well, but get rid of the silly 10 round in the mag rule. Open is open, (or so it should be).

+1

[CC712400]

It would be interesting to see for sure. Personally, I don't imagine it would change much. I don't know any Limited shooters who just are sitting on "Lim-legal" Saiga's, and I don't see more than one or two shooters turning out to an event that allowed them, especially with the mag cap.

With a 5rd cap, I imagine that tube guns would do better, especially in experienced hands on short stages. Make it advantageous (allow 8+1), and there's going to be a lot of angry tube-gun folks running around.

[DyNo!]

I agree that limited 10 open shotgun is stupid.

Agreed.

[Corey]

people are argueing about the 10 round cap in Limited (which, yes, seems a little odd) but the pistol mag length is a limit too. why stop at 170mm? why not allow anything? thats the arguement thats being offered for the Saigas. if you're going to be Open, then imo, it should be OPEN.

[lynn jones]

I agree that limited 10 open shotgun is stupid.

Agreed.

+1, should be called limited-open