Revolver Division

[hf219]

I had an email sent to me regarding open revolvers. The question more in lines with the shooter wanting to shoot an revolver with an optic. He wanted to in USPSA although he knows it would put him in open, which is a considerable disadvantage. As I had some q&a with a few revolver shooters I thought it might be of interest to throw it out on this forum. Going past the open revolver question, what would it take to draw some more interest for revolver shooters in other disciplines to participate in USPSA. I also was bouncing around some thoughts about getting open revolvers into the revolver division without adding another division. One thought was to make open revolver a category in the open division. I would like to hear some thoughts on it. Someone may have a great idea, Thanks H!

[hopalong]

We already have a place for open revolvers...................in the OPEN division !!!!

Now maybe that division needs a "revolver" catagory ????

The biggest thing right now I can see is to open up the revolver division to the 8 shot guns and make them have to shoot MINOR..........Kind of like SSTK with the 10 shot magazines vs the 8 shot magazines and shooting Major.

And/or a speedloader catagory in the revolver division, but i'd suggest the other first.

Hopalong

and, to get the other revolver shooters from other disciplines. You have to get them to open themselves to shooting USPSA type of shooting first.

[jhgtyre]

We have already discussed this, quite a bit, and it goes nowhere. In the end it is not likely to change anytime soon.

-ld

[Toolguy]

Years ago, I tried shooting IPSC with a revolver around here for a couple of months. Every time I went, there was some kind of problem. These problems were usually related to auto shooters not understanding revolvers. For example, a revolver is gravity operated in terms of loading and unloading. Every time I would do a reload, the RO would be about a foot away from my ear, screaming at the top of his lungs "Watch your muzzle, watch your muzzle!!!". I never got close to breaking 180, but it didn't matter. Every reload. Also, when I would get done, the auto shooters would trample my moonclips while they were airgunning the stage in preparation for their turn. I asked them to wait until I got the clips picked up, but they didn't care. One time I beat everyone but the top guy and the RO said "No one can shoot a revolver that good - there must be something wrong with the timer" so they threw out my score. I thought it was strange that the same timer worked fine all day for everyone else, but that was dismissed as me being argumentative. There were many other problems, but I think you get the idea. This was not a fun, recreational thing to do, so I have never been back to

IPSC and will not go back. I can shoot several other kinds of matches with a revolver and not have any of these problems.

If you want to have revolver shooters, the auto guys need to look at things from a revo viewpoint and make it a good experience for them too. If they have fun, they will come back.

Edited June 30, 2010 by Toolguy

[Will_M]

so I have never been back to

IPSC and will not go back.

I think this was just a bad experience with one club. Every club I've ever shot at has had great people, but there's bound to be a few bad apples.

I know at our club we love our revo guys, however misguided they may be

(I'm looking at you Bwana Six Gun)

[hf219]

We have already discussed this, quite a bit, and it goes nowhere. In the end it is not likely to change anytime soon.

-ld

Sometimes having the right people involved in the discussion can help. There are lots of discussions that go nowhere. Why? The right people were not part of it. I tried doing a search and couldnt find anything on it. Im sure that this topic has been discussed, just couldnt find anything on it. While we are here though, the discussion seems to be moving along. 8 shot minor 6 shot major/ open category/ speed loader category. Why not, if it promotes people being involved, then lets do it, after all whats it going to cost a little time?

Edited June 30, 2010 by hf219

[hf219]

Your right as well in saying the auto loaders are not informed on revo happenings. You make good points, people stepping on moonclips and reloading issues. Thanks, Its nice to be informed and pass along the information. H!

[AzShooter]

I get the same problem with the USPSA guys yelling MUSSLE when I'm reloading or saying well you came awful close to the 180 on that reload when I was no where near it. They just don't see what's going on. I've been shooting revo in USPSA matches for 30 years and I think I know how to handle it. You just have to explain to these people the differences in revolver shooting. After they see it a few times they no longer bother me.

Guys love it when I shoot. They don't mind picking up the few moon clips compared to scattered brass all around the place.

[Flexmoney]

I also was bouncing around some thoughts about getting open revolvers into the revolver division without adding another division. One thought was to make open revolver a category in the open division.

Any sub-division...when you think about it...really is just another division without being called that. So, it's another division regardless...just looks different on paper.

[Matt Griffin]

The real problem isn't the optic (we could offset that by making them go Minor) it's the 7 and 8 shot guns that would constitute an insurmountable advantage in an IPSC course of fire. Not a big deal in ICORE where the stages are always 6-shot neutral, but you would effectively kill off every revolver shooter out there currently unless they switched over to $2000 worth of guns, new brass, new dies, a $300 optic for each gun, 4$ moonclips, etc.

Revolver as a division doesn't need to be watered down anyway, there are few enough of us. Take the optic off and shoot revolver, it's not like the other four non-optic divisions are hurting for representation at every level of skill and age.

H.

[jONESIE]

Perhaps less restrictive rules on equipment would encourage greater participation. While 8 shot revolvers are essentially snuffed in USPSA (if I read the rules right they can only load 6 at any time), ICORE allows 8 shot revolvers in limited and open.

Due to their popularity in ICORE, there is a good chance that allowing a place for 7 or 8 shot revolvers to compete would attract additional revolver shooters. Perhaps open division would be appropriate.

As a rookie competitor, I see some parts of USPSA style competition as particularly unfriendly to revolver shooters. For example, a simple 8 shot target array that is engaged weak hand only really causes havoc on a revolver shooter. No one likes to do weak hand standing reloads. Even lefty revolver shooters get confused on those, probably because it is illegal to practice with a revolver .

Also, Multiple large target arrays combined with standing reloads introduces too much counting. Math is a proven revolver shooter repellant .

[hf219]

The real problem isn't the optic (we could offset that by making them go Minor) it's the 7 and 8 shot guns that would constitute an insurmountable advantage in an IPSC course of fire. Not a big deal in ICORE where the stages are always 6-shot neutral, but you would effectively kill off every revolver shooter out there currently unless they switched over to $2000 worth of guns, new brass, new dies, a $300 optic for each gun, 4$ moonclips, etc.

Revolver as a division doesn't need to be watered down anyway, there are few enough of us. Take the optic off and shoot revolver, it's not like the other four non-optic divisions are hurting for representation at every level of skill and age.

H.

Ive heard the same issues about letting people shoot 8 shot revos. I certainly dont want to kill the revo division. There does seem to be competitors that want to shoot there 8 shot revo as well as competitors that would like to shoot an optic. The optic issue comes into play with an email I recieved regarding a shooters eye sight. An optic would alleviate some of the shooters inability to lock onto the iron sights. Regardless this person as well as others just like it. The issue I see is that there are equal people on all fronts. 6 shot/ 8 shot/ iron sights/ open/ speed loaders/ moon clips. What kills the revo division is only half of the things listed are what people can either use or be benefiting to them. I really dont see why we cant just open it up a bit. Revo shooters are a unique blend of competitors. The question remains the same, what could be done to open up. Its hard for me to compare the category status. When I compete, I compete against other people in my class. If I fit into a category, I look at it as a bonus mention that I did well in it. I hear both sides of the fence. Im sure there is a consensus on what it would take to open up the revo division.

Edited June 30, 2010 by hf219

[Bubber]

Let me gather my thoughts (That's like hereding cats)and I will get back to, I hae tried a couple Ideas on hthe local level. Got he OK and all and yet no takers on shooting the 8 shot as a revo using all 8 shots with no penalty. Rdd

[Aglifter]

Why not put the 8 shot revolvers in w. single-stack?

[hf219]

This is the concept I was looking for. Contribution of ideas. Any thoughts are good, if you dont say them, we might not know they exist. GOOD BAD OR UGLY, put them up here.

[cliffwalsh]

You can shoot your 8 shot gun in production or L-10. Yes you would be down 2 rounds but I know that is OK because you are OK with my 6 shot gun being down 2 rounds in revolver division.

[slflr]

We already have a place for open revolvers...................in the OPEN division !!!!

I agree.

[Northern Xtreme]

I have a senior friend that has been shooting revolver for many years, lately the recoil of major was bothering him so he has been shooting his eight shot 38 super in production division and is having fun doing it.

I do not agree with messing with the revolver division rules, I think for every revolver shooter you gain you will lose at least one.

I.M.O. the comparison between single stack minor 10 shots/ major 8 shots, is not the valid, since revolvers take longer to load, and accuracy is already a premium for revolver shooters, the 8 shot would be a serious advantage and I do not believe the 6 shot guns would be able to compete at the highest levels.

I like the division the way it is, and I think allowing 8 shots would spoil it.

I dont think revolver division is ever going to carry the numbers of other divisions because shooting a revolver well is a different skill set than autos and most people use the more modern autos in everyday life and are not willing to put the time and energy into being competitive with a revolver.

[slflr]

I get the same problem with the USPSA guys yelling MUSSLE when I'm reloading or saying well you came awful close to the 180 on that reload when I was no where near it. They just don't see what's going on. I've been shooting revo in USPSA matches for 30 years and I think I know how to handle it. You just have to explain to these people the differences in revolver shooting. After they see it a few times they no longer bother me.

Guys love it when I shoot. They don't mind picking up the few moon clips compared to scattered brass all around the place.

Can't touch this.

[Bubber]

..............

I dont think revolver division is ever going to carry the numbers of other divisions because shooting a revolver well is a different skill set than autos and most people use the more modern autos in everyday life and are not willing to put the time and energy into being competitive with a revolver.

Basicaly I think Norther Xtreme point is valid. Revolver is the place where it should be very easy to start in IPSC as you cannot buy a distinct advantage. It is always no more than 6 shots then a reload. The learning curve is harder than the Auto. If you can shoot a Revo you can shoot an Auto and the other way around to. It is just takes a different skill set for the "rest of the game". As I stated prior I had offered a place in a local match where the 7 and 8 shot would be able to compete with the 6 shot abeit scoring minor, but no takers. There was talk of trying this at a local level but have heard no word on the results other than mine. We will not lure the shooters from other divisions into the revo crowd.

[Brewski]

As an IDPA SSR shooter, I’d be more excited about shooting USPSA if you had the equivalent of the SSR division – minor power, six shots, and speedloaders. Actually, it would be a lot like shooting ICORE retro division, which was a blast while we had local matches. I know a several IDPA SSR folks who would give it a try – really nothing to lose as we’re already set up to play giving a very low barrier to trying the game.

[Bill Nesbitt]

As an IDPA SSR shooter, I’d be more excited about shooting USPSA if you had the equivalent of the SSR division – minor power, six shots, and speedloaders. Actually, it would be a lot like shooting ICORE retro division, which was a blast while we had local matches. I know a several IDPA SSR folks who would give it a try – really nothing to lose as we’re already set up to play giving a very low barrier to trying the game.

I shot an IDPA SSR revolver at last years Ohio Sectional and won B Class shooting minor. I just added a bunch more speed loaders.

There's nothing wrong with USPSA Revolver just the way it is right now. It's as near perfect as it can get.

[Merlin Orr]

Perhaps less restrictive rules on equipment would encourage greater participation. While 8 shot revolvers are essentially snuffed in USPSA (if I read the rules right they can only load 6 at any time), ICORE allows 8 shot revolvers in limited and open.

Due to their popularity in ICORE, there is a good chance that allowing a place for 7 or 8 shot revolvers to compete would attract additional revolver shooters. Perhaps open division would be appropriate.

As a rookie competitor, I see some parts of USPSA style competition as particularly unfriendly to revolver shooters. For example, a simple 8 shot target array that is engaged weak hand only really causes havoc on a revolver shooter. No one likes to do weak hand standing reloads. Even lefty revolver shooters get confused on those, probably because it is illegal to practice with a revolver .

Also, Multiple large target arrays combined with standing reloads introduces too much counting. Math is a proven revolver shooter repellant .

While I really don't know enough about the real pro's and con's of this to agree or disagree - I do like your observations...

[AzShooter]

You can shoot your 8 shot revolver in the Revolver Division. You only need to know how to count to SIX and then reload. I don't see the problem.

We should have put an end to this when the Bauman 7 shot was available. One person shot it and had a huge advantage. He's also the greatest revolver shooter in the world and didn't need the advantage but once it was there the writing was on the wall. Then everyone wanted the 7 shot and finally the 8 shot. I even know guys with 9 and 10 shot revolvers. Everytime they show up at a match there has to be special rules set aside so they don't have an advantage. The rule is already set. SIX and Reload. In ICORE it's stated All Stages Must Be Six Round Neutral.

I'm not an inexperienced shooter. I was one of the first Master Class shooters in ICORE and I used a 625 with very light loads. I think it's because our club was shooting all of the classifiers compared to the other clubs. Things have changed, now there is a big cache of shooters shooting the classifiers.

Due to health I'm only a B shooter now in ICORE and USPSA but I'm still shooting and enjoying myself. If the stages are set up right we all have the same chance. Then the difference is practice and ability.

Now, I understand people wanting to shoot their optics. Lots of us experience aging eyesight and those dots really help. I can see adding optics somehow but don't know what would be the best way. Hopefully with discussions people will be able to agree on something.

Just my humble opinion.

Edited July 1, 2010 by AzShooter

[Tom E]

Out of curiosity I figured last years King of Revo match scores adjusting the scores so the 8 shooters were minor and the 6 shooters major. Even on a pretty revolver friendly course of fire the minor 8 shooters were a clear advantage. I'd like to see optics allowed in revolver, an "old eyes" thing. I'd probably shoot a J-point/Doctors type, when I get some spare $$'s I'm going to acquire one, but having shot optics and iron on my revolvers I wouldn't feel dis-advantaged with iron sights against optics. I do use a C-More on my 617 for steel challenge and do much better than with iron sights but that's a different game with low ready starts. I shoot pins (usually) with C-Mores, definitely an advantge shooting pin heads with my 617 but I'm as fast on full size pins with my iron sights 625 as with my 627 C-Mored pin gun, I'm more consistent with the C-More 627.

Edited July 1, 2010 by Tom E