Revolver Division

[JohnRodriguez]

for the last several years, i've haven't been able to shoot the High Desert Classic in Albaquerque do to scheduale conflict with the IRC. This years it was separated by 2 weeks, so I shoot it. There was nobody shooting it in Revo division, so I shot it in limited 10 with my left over IRC ammo. I finished 3rd. Next year if there is no conflict again, i'll run it with some major ammo in my 38/357 and see if anybody catches that the minimum caliber for major in lim-10 is .40 cal.

[Bwana Six-Gun]

so I have never been back to

IPSC and will not go back.

I think this was just a bad experience with one club. Every club I've ever shot at has had great people, but there's bound to be a few bad apples.

I know at our club we love our revo guys, however misguided they may be

(I'm looking at you Bwana Six Gun)

I'll be looking for you on the 4th Will. Would you like me to bring a spare gun and rig so you can find out what it is like to shoot a REAL gun?

Edited July 1, 2010 by Bwana Six-Gun

[Rather-B-Huntin]

Personally, I'd forget about competing and focus on the fun. If you want to be competitive, play them at their own game. You can't beat a Corvette with a Corvair. You can't beat a hi-cap Open gun with an Open Revo. As cool as it would be to do, it just aint gonna happen that often. A blind hog can find an acorn once in a while, so you never know, but for the most part....

I haven't fired the first round from an auto in competition this season. I've shot my 625 in Revo, my 627 in Prod. and L-10, and my 637 for grins and giggles (we do a BUG division in local ICORE, and it's my dailey carry gun. so the more practice the better). I'll be shooting my 627 in Open starting this month as I've recently added a CMore STS for ICORE Open, but I have no illusions of being competitive against hi-cap auto Open shooters.

As far as the fun part of it, aside from being good practice, I found it very satisfying when last months results came in and I was second of 10 in Prod. and fifth of 14 in L-10 with my 627! And nothing says you can't add an Open revo division at a local level. We do a BUG division at local USPSA. There's no classification for it, but who cares? It's good fun and good practice. Concentrate on that and it's much more satisfying.

[westczek]

Ok... this isn't really a solution, but it is how I handled the 6 shot problem. I had a 7 shot S&W 686, there was no way I was going to reliably count to 6 (I can't count on my fingers and hold the gun). I bought a seperate 6 shot cylinder for the 686. I use that for USPSA. I will be switching to my 7 shot cylinder next week for the PA Steel Challange match, hey one extra chance to miss can't hurt.

Why not pick up a 6 shot cylinder for your 8 shot 627s? Of course you would have to shoot 38s.

More on topic...

If you have a gun you like and you like to shoot it... Shoot it in what ever division it is legal and have fun. Most local matches I go to are lucky to have more than one revolver shooter. I'm one of two signed up for the Sunday match in Fredericksberg, VA. But its no because people have 8 shot 627s that don't fit into the revolver division.

One thing that may help in rules changes, would be to lower minor power factor for revolver division. This would allow non-reloading shooters with 38 Special/357 magnum revolvers to buy more economical remanufactured ammo without fear of not meeting power factor (There may be some issues around steel calibration, true). The ammo, and me not reloading was one of the main issue which delayed my switch to revolver. I shot production with Winchester white box 9mm before.

Westczek

[John Z Sr]

Leave revo alone, we have a hard enough time getting enough shooters at a major match to have a class winner. I shoot revo in USPSA and IDPA and until we lost our local ICORE match due to VERY LOW ATTENDANCE, let me repeat, VERY LOW ATTENDANCE, the last thing we need to do is split up the few we have. I've seen some higher end revo shooters shoot in L10 and win it. As for the IDPA guys, come on over and shoot. You can shoot the SSR gun, more reload practice for IDPA and most of the shooters I've seen in SSR are accurate, so shooting minor does not hurt much, an Alpha is an Alpha

[ChrisC]

id like to beable to shoot my 8 shot in uspsa... there is only 1 icore club near me and I can't always make that... I doubt it would make a huge difference in participation but Id still like to see it happen...

[Carmoney]

Why not pick up a 6 shot cylinder for your 8 shot 627s? Of course you would have to shoot 38s.

The 6-shot .357 cylinders and 8-shot cylinders do not interchange on the N-frames. They have slightly different bore radius dimensions.

[cliffwalsh]

id like to beable to shoot my 8 shot in uspsa... there is only 1 icore club near me and I can't always make that... I doubt it would make a huge difference in participation but Id still like to see it happen...

Once again, you can. L-10 or production,

[Daniele]

The biggest thing right now I can see is to open up the revolver division to the 8 shot guns and make them have to shoot MINOR

+ 1!

[ChrisC]

id like to beable to shoot my 8 shot in uspsa... there is only 1 icore club near me and I can't always make that... I doubt it would make a huge difference in participation but Id still like to see it happen...

Once again, you can. L-10 or production,

I am pretty sure I've seen you post that several times over the last couple of years... The can isn't the problem it's the want to shoot revo division that's the catch...

[Carmoney]

This conversation pops up every so often around here.

Bottom line......we damn near lost Revolver Division in USPSA a few years back, and campaigned the Board of Directors to change the revolver rules to be more inclusive and accommodate guns with custom barrels, additional modifications, etc. We literally re-wrote the current equipment rules right here on this forum. We talked about all this stuff, and there was an overwhelming consensus to keep it 6 rounds between reloads, with no ports/comps.

I'm sure a search would reveal that poll and thread, if somebody wants to take the time to dig it up.

Participation in the division has increased since then, and at this point there does not appear to be immediate pressure to get rid of USPSA Revo. It would not be viable to split revolvers into multiple divisions.

[buckaroo45]

I have a bit different take on all this. Being over 60 with eyes slowly going away I've put fiber on ALL my guns including my 625 and 627. They help but some days it's still a challenge. I put a clone Doctor on my 627 for this years Steel Challenge, see pic, and had mixed results. The bright sunlight made it difficult to find the 2 moa dot (Jerry said he used a 7 moa!) so on most stages I looked like I was swatting flies with the barrel. I didn't do well so the optic isn't the panacea some think it to be and at my age a lot of practice isn't a solution. I've come to the conclusion that hard core competition is best left to those with better eyes, hands, nerves, etc. I currently shoot Limited, Single Stack and Revo with an occasional detour into Production. It just depends on what I want to shoot that week. I still take my plate gun to my IPSC club and shoot Open just because it's a fun gun to shoot but I have no vision of being competitive. Since there are only a half dozen or so out of over 100 members at my club in South Florida that occasionally shoot revo (we couldn't get enough interest to start an ICORE group) I suspect the use of optics on a revo in IPSC is over rated at best. Leave the rules as they are and just enjoy the game. It is, after all, just a game.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________

"Changing over to shooting revolver is the natural evolution of things, like learning to walk upright."

D.H. Busching

[GMM50]

I love shooting revolvers.

My eyes are failing (64 yrs old).

I've got fiber on some guns and on sunny days it's OK.

I've got red dots for the cloudy days.

In USPSA I shoot revolver (6 shot), or L10 (6 or 8 shot) or Open.

I go to local IDPA matches and shoot with my USPSA rig in the non-compliant class.

And ICORE

And Plates

And Steel.

And Bowling Pins.

USPSA won't ever be the best game for revolvers and it's resistant to change. I had the president say to me "Screw the Revolver Division"

But go to the nationals shoot revolver and you probably get squaded with Jerry M. And then life is real good.

Keep pulling that trigger.

PS Just been Carmonized first time. Report to follow!!!!

George

[westczek]

Carmoney,

Thanks for the info on the N-frame 357 mag cyliners 6 shot vs 8 shot. It's too bad, I like being able to switch in the L-frame.

Westczek

[Northern Xtreme]

The fact of the matter is if you cant be competitive with a revolver under the current rules, you are probably just shooting for fun anyhow.

Even if you change the rules to make yourself more competitive, it wont work, because whatever advantage you gain using an eight shot or optics, or compensated revolvers etc, will not be an advantage when everyone else throws down all of the same money and gets the same equipment so you'll be back in the same boat anyhow.

Just go shoot whatever you have and enjoy yourself.

If you have an eight shot revolver you can shoot 6 shots and reload, you still have an advantage, if your gun doesnt go bang you can strike the 7th round.

Or go whip some bottom feeders and take pleasure in that.

Edited July 2, 2010 by Northern Xtreme

[glockwerkes]

The fact of the matter is if you cant be competitive with a revolver under the current rules, you are probably just shooting for fun anyhow.Even if you change the rules to make yourself more competitive, it wont work, because whatever advantage you gain using an eight shot or optics, or compensated revolvers etc, will not be an advantage when everyone else throws down all of the same money and gets the same equipment so you'll be back in the same boat anyhow.Just go shoot whatever you have and enjoy yourself.If you have an eight shot revolver you can shoot 6 shots and reload, you still have an advantage, if your gun doesnt go bang you can strike the 7th round.Or go whip some bottom feeders and take pleasure in that.

This quote pretty well sums up anything I would have contributed. Shoot what you got, and enjoy yourself. I hop between Glocks in Production and a 625 in Revo. People always ask "Why do you shoot revolver?" My answer is always the same, "Because it's fun". It just makes me grin. I think that Revo distills it down to the skills of the competitor, not the size of his wallet. Doing Revo division well is like an art form. (In case you're wondering, I'm still in the finger painting class).

Yes, I'm resistant to change. But this time, I think it's just the right answer to "Leave it alone".

[Carmoney]

Several excellent contributions here.

[Blueridge]

I have competed in revolver division since my start in USPSA. I have really never considered participating in any other division except production, and only that due to matches that revolver division is not recognized but production is (I would still use my revolver).

I have always used a Ruger Alaskan loaded with .45 Colt and no modifications from stock. It has taken some effort to become proficient in it's use in USPSA, but it is the challenge that has kept me going. Every place I am higher on the overall and revolver results gives me pride in my efforts.

I am a competitor and not just in it for fun, but I am content with using what I have without modifying my revolver from stock. There is nothing wrong with the improvements that most make to their gear. All of us must be happy with what we have, and I don't need modifications on my revolver to be hapy with it.

Revolver division is different "animal" from all the other divisions. The competitors in revolver are no different in attitude and are just as competitive. Several of the required skill sets are a little different from shooting an auto, such as reloads. You have to love shooting revolver division to do it, while you have to like shooting the other divisions to do them in my opinion.

Whatever rules and parameters exist to shoot revolver in I'll work within. I just don't want to see the division be removed.

I would have to disgrace production shooters by besting as many as I could with my revolver then.

[Daniele]

There are rumors of a new division, "Single Stack" taking place of "Modified" in IPSC in 2012.

It already exist here in Italy as a 1911 design only!

Discussions arouse in Global Village focusing on capacity instead of design: allowing all low capacity pistols, a 8 shot revo could enter with little handicap in a division limited to 8 (+1) rounds.

[Matt Griffin]

Cliff nailed it. Eight shots would make six shots unplayable in revolver division, which would end revolver division. If the sixers are supposed to just suck it up vs. 8, why can't 8 suck it up vs. 10 in production? You know, for the good of the sport? I say let them into single stack, that makes perfect sense even though you're still at a reload disadvantage, but otherwise it gets pretty level.

H.

[underlug]

The fact of the matter is if you cant be competitive with a revolver under the current rules, you are probably just shooting for fun anyhow.

Even if you change the rules to make yourself more competitive, it wont work, because whatever advantage you gain using an eight shot or optics, or compensated revolvers etc, will not be an advantage when everyone else throws down all of the same money and gets the same equipment so you'll be back in the same boat anyhow.

Just go shoot whatever you have and enjoy yourself.

If you have an eight shot revolver you can shoot 6 shots and reload, you still have an advantage, if your gun doesnt go bang you can strike the 7th round.

Or go whip some bottom feeders and take pleasure in that.

One of the things I have never tried is using the 8 shot in Revolver division, loading 8 and shooting only 6 (minor). It might be a fun thing. Challenging for a small brain like mine to not fire the 7th shot and getting the express ticket to open.

[Team Amish 1]

Cliff nailed it. Eight shots would make six shots unplayable in revolver division, which would end revolver division. If the sixers are supposed to just suck it up vs. 8, why can't 8 suck it up vs. 10 in production? You know, for the good of the sport? I say let them into single stack, that makes perfect sense even though you're still at a reload disadvantage, but otherwise it gets pretty level.

H.

In Single Stack, they'd still be at a disadvantage because of power factor.

In Production, they lack the extra 2-3 rounds.

An approach similar to Single Stack would be cool, like we do with .45/.40's and 9's.

6-rd revo can be major or minor, depending on PF

8-rd can only be minor

That would still leave Open revo in Open but, unless more folks get interested in revo, it'll probably stay that way.

Edited July 2, 2010 by Team Amish 1

[Matt Griffin]

Cliff nailed it. Eight shots would make six shots unplayable in revolver division, which would end revolver division. If the sixers are supposed to just suck it up vs. 8, why can't 8 suck it up vs. 10 in production? You know, for the good of the sport? I say let them into single stack, that makes perfect sense even though you're still at a reload disadvantage, but otherwise it gets pretty level.

H.

In Single Stack, they'd still be at a disadvantage because of power factor.

In Production, they lack the extra 2-3 rounds.

An approach similar to Single Stack would be cool, like we do with .45/.40's and 9's.

6-rd revo can be major or minor, depending on PF

8-rd can only be minor

That would still leave Open revo in Open but, unless more folks get interested in revo, it'll probably stay that way.

The two extra rounds would more than offset the major/minor disadvantage. The highest revolver hit factors get up into the 6s, so a 2 second reload is worth 12 points, much more than the usual differential between major/minor. At Area 5 the top SS beat the top Revo by a few seconds at least on each stage. The better solution is let them play in SS but at major. I always thought the SS rule was kind of silly anyway, if someone wants to shoot a .40 or 9mm SS, limit them to 8 and they have to make major to score major. Otherwise it's just production with a good trigger.

H.

[Carmoney]

The two extra rounds would more than offset the major/minor disadvantage.

They said exactly the same thing about shooting minor in SS, and look what happened there!

I'll admit the difference between 6 and 8 is more significant, but still......the truth is it would depend heavily on stage design at any particular match. Lots of places fall into the tired old routine of setting up lots of 8-shot arrays--but you don't see that nearly so much at better matches with more sophisticated stage design effort.

There would be some matches where the smart choice would be a 6-round 625, in order to get major scoring and the slightly faster reloads, which would add up over the course of a larger match. You also have to consider the fact that taking an extra reload (or two) while moving may not add much extra time on the clock.

I do think it would be interesting. I was hoping to use last year's King of Revo match as a test-bed for this, having everybody shoot the same stages one day with 6-round major and the next day with 8-round minor. With 40 shooters all forced to do this, we would have had some meaningful data to consider. Unfortunately, we modified some of the equipment rules, maninly to accommodate the junior shooters, and so the data got hopelessly skewed.

My casual impression, however, is that for the typical "big" USPSA match, the difference between major-6 and minor-8 is much closer to a wash than you might expect at first blush.

Edited July 2, 2010 by Carmoney

[Northern Xtreme]

Heres a test for you:

Do an el prez on four targets instead of three.

Use an eight shot revolver shooting minor for one run and a six shot revolver shooting major for another run.

Which gun is going to score a better hit factor?

Unfortunately most matches around here do use the eight shot per target array, they do not set up courses to be revolver nuetral, in fact I dont think revolvers ever even enter into their thinking when designing courses.