Revolver Division

[Matt Griffin]

I'll gladly shoot minor and keep using my plain moonclips, go back to the cheapy kydex clip holders I started with, and switch back to my own trigger job if I get to have eight shots in USPSA. Mike, Cliff, anyone want to sign a petition to let only me shoot 8 times while you guys get 6? You know, for research purposes?

As I have always said, it would depend on stage design at any particular match. On the other hand, not only would I not want to lose because of an "equipment race", I also wouldn't want to win because of one either. That's part of my attraction to Revo, we're all pretty much shooting the same equipment. As it stands right now, if you beat me, we both know it's because you outperformed me, not because you have some trick gun.

I heartily agree. And oddly enough when I analyzed the posted stages for the IRC where 8 shot guns are allowed, there were only 3 stages that weren't limited shots with all 6 shot arrays, and I don't recally any with >6 shot positions. So providing you don't miss or click, there's no disadvantage to shooting 6 in ICORE usually, as opposed to how it would be in USPSA.

H.

[pskys2]

I'll gladly shoot minor and keep using my plain moonclips, go back to the cheapy kydex clip holders I started with, and switch back to my own trigger job if I get to have eight shots in USPSA. Mike, Cliff, anyone want to sign a petition to let only me shoot 8 times while you guys get 6? You know, for research purposes?

As I have always said, it would depend on stage design at any particular match. On the other hand, not only would I not want to lose because of an "equipment race", I also wouldn't want to win because of one either. That's part of my attraction to Revo, we're all pretty much shooting the same equipment. As it stands right now, if you beat me, we both know it's because you outperformed me, not because you have some trick gun.

I heartily agree. And oddly enough when I analyzed the posted stages for the IRC where 8 shot guns are allowed, there were only 3 stages that weren't limited shots with all 6 shot arrays, and I don't recally any with >6 shot positions. So providing you don't miss or click, there's no disadvantage to shooting 6 in ICORE usually, as opposed to how it would be in USPSA.

H.

Not surprising when one of their rules on course design is to limit shots on courses to 6 per position. They do this to deliberately nullify the advantage of an 8 shot. Why it won't work in IPSC, can you imagine telling a bunch of IPSC'ers they can only have 6 shots/position. I for one would find that not much fun.

[Bubber]

Not surprising when one of their rules on course design is to limit shots on courses to 6 per position. They do this to deliberately nullify the advantage of an 8 shot. Why it won't work in IPSC, can you imagine telling a bunch of IPSC'ers they can only have 6 shots/position. I for one would find that not much fun.

pskys2, it does not state that there can only be 6 shots per position it only says that it must be 6 shot neutral. Granted the easyway out would be the 6 shot per position but you can make it 6 shot neutral by allowing the 7 and 8 th shot if you make the shots available a little harder and make it visible and easier from another position and other targets available from that same position. As in IPSC it all comes down to stage design. Then only thing is to keep away from the 8 shot arrays available from one position only. 9 shot arrays are the best of both worlds and a 10 work well also. ICORE = Revo IPSC with a higher emphasis on accuarcy, and the edge is a lot narrower. later rdd

[pskys2]

Not surprising when one of their rules on course design is to limit shots on courses to 6 per position. They do this to deliberately nullify the advantage of an 8 shot. Why it won't work in IPSC, can you imagine telling a bunch of IPSC'ers they can only have 6 shots/position. I for one would find that not much fun.

pskys2, it does not state that there can only be 6 shots per position it only says that it must be 6 shot neutral. Granted the easyway out would be the 6 shot per position but you can make it 6 shot neutral by allowing the 7 and 8 th shot if you make the shots available a little harder and make it visible and easier from another position and other targets available from that same position. As in IPSC it all comes down to stage design. Then only thing is to keep away from the 8 shot arrays available from one position only. 9 shot arrays are the best of both worlds and a 10 work well also. ICORE = Revo IPSC with a higher emphasis on accuarcy, and the edge is a lot narrower. later rdd

I knew as soon as I wrote it that it was not technicaly correct, but as you said it is the intent to level the playing field. And it is a good plan in ICORE. But it still highlights one of the problems with a change in the USPSA Rules. I know USPSA has also have made various round count limitiations per position, but it is not strictly adhered to even at some of the bigger matches. As in ICORE they usually have multiple positions to shoot targets as seen, but the results are not always fair to all and are part of the issues which have led to the different Divisions we now see in USPSA.

As Mike said one of the draws of USPSA Revolver is it's pureness, it's placement on skill rather than equipment. Production (and of course L10) limits competitors to 10 rounds, Single Stack to 8 or 9 which is an attempt to go back to the freewheeling times of days past. But in Single Stack a great reload can break under a second, a good one 1.2 but a Revolver will usually add a whole second, or more, to what a specific competitor can do. The difference between the two is pretty drastic though.

Just as Production is seen as a level playing field due to it's limitations on Equipment Modifications, Revolver has the limits on Rounds. I fear a change would actually start driving away competitors, both new and existing, due to them not wanting to begin that race. I know it would bring in a few, but at what cost?

BTW are you going to give Cliff a run for Speedloader Champion Title in Memphis?

[cliffwalsh]

BTW are you going to give Cliff a run for Speedloader Champion Title in Memphis?

My days as speedloader champion are numbered. My arch nemisis, Bones, is coming and he has beaten me 4 times in a row with speedloaders and is the Retro champ.

[John Z Sr]

BTW are you going to give Cliff a run for Speedloader Champion Title in Memphis?

My days as speedloader champion are numbered. My arch nemisis, Bones, is coming and he has beaten me 4 times in a row with speedloaders and is the Retro champ.

The odds are in your favor, oh Ruler of the USPSA revo world, Bones is due to make a mistake. If I had anything left to bet, my money would be on you, but the last time I bet on you, I lost my home to Bones, so good luck. Maybe Josh will show up and then no worries, the kid can win

[Bubber]

BTW are you going to give Cliff a run for Speedloader Champion Title in Memphis?

pskys2. In my current condition it will be more of a fast step waddle. Shhhh... but don't tell no one... I 've been practicing my reloads....Shhh remember ...no one... Later rdd

[pskys2]

BTW are you going to give Cliff a run for Speedloader Champion Title in Memphis?

pskys2. In my current condition it will be more of a fast step waddle. Shhhh... but don't tell no one... I 've been practicing my reloads....Shhh remember ...no one... Later rdd

Yep, it's in the vault. Won't tell a soul. Never hear it from me!

Hope it's nothing serious though.

[professor]

The fact of the matter is if you cant be competitive with a revolver under the current rules, you are probably just shooting for fun anyhow.

Even if you change the rules to make yourself more competitive, it wont work, because whatever advantage you gain using an eight shot or optics, or compensated revolvers etc, will not be an advantage when everyone else throws down all of the same money and gets the same equipment so you'll be back in the same boat anyhow.

Just go shoot whatever you have and enjoy yourself.

If you have an eight shot revolver you can shoot 6 shots and reload, you still have an advantage, if your gun doesnt go bang you can strike the 7th round.

Or go whip some bottom feeders and take pleasure in that.

Trouble in the USPSA is when you go bang on the 7th round on that moon, you become an Open division shooter. In IDPA [international] rules, that 7th [or 8th] shot is a 10 point penalty, not a death sentence.

[snertley]

Again we have been hashiing this out. Leave it at 6 rounds. Every round gun shooter has a 6 shooter. A minority has the 7 or 8 round guns. Shoot more than 6 then shoot limit 10 or production. Simple as that.

Sorry I've been drinking for about 8hrs. what it is is what it is.

[gcambi]

i never could understand why the game that defined the equipment race would not have an open div 4 revo's

[jhgtyre]

i never could understand why the game that defined the equipment race would not have an open div 4 revo's

They don't have an open division "for" anything. Open is just open. It is the real heads up, run what you brung, no limits division. I shoot my 8 shot in it sometimes and have a blast. YMMV.

-ld

[Merlin Orr]

i never could understand why the game that defined the equipment race would not have an open div 4 revo's

They don't have an open division "for" anything. Open is just open. It is the real heads up, run what you brung, no limits division. I shoot my 8 shot in it sometimes and have a blast. YMMV.

-ld

In reality - there is an Open division for a very few limited types and brands of guns defined as much or more by capacity than any other criteria.

[Tom E]

The grumble I have is the 8 shot per position rule. It has the un-intended consequence of shooting lots of 8 rd arrays. I put on a number of indoor wintertime evening matches and using 11 rd neutral instead seemed to work much better. It evened things out alot.

[Dancin Dan]

I don't get it we have open and limited, why not open and limited revolver??????????

It's not fair in any way to put an 8 shot revolver with optics into open division against a gun with 30 round mags!!!! I think this and I shoot open.

[Merlin Orr]

Just not enough shooters.

Edited July 17, 2010 by Merlin Orr

[jhgtyre]

Just not enough shooters.

Exactly.

-ld

[LCARICH]

I would go back to shooting IPSC/USPSA, if there was open revolver.

[cliffwalsh]

I would go back to shooting IPSC/USPSA, if there was open revolver.

This comes down to your reason for shooting. You can shoot open revolver in USPSA, there is a divison for just about every handgun. Sure you will not win open with a revo (does not apply to Jerry M). If you are shooting to have fun, so what. If you are only shooting what you can win, try IDPA.

[tomfturner]

I guess I just don't understand all the push back on the 8-shot revos from the 6-shot guys? I keep hearing the "it'll make it an equipment race" argument, but isn't that kinda what every other division has become in some form or fashion (including revo)?

I mean you don't see manufacturers turning out guns with 7-8lb triggers anymore and advertising them to the shooting comunity, you see Glock G34-35s, M&P Pros, XDms, Sig USPSA edition guns. On the Revo side it's pretty much an S&W race as to which 625 model is going to come with the least amount of smithing needed if you're just getting into this division. And the argument about the changing holders and holsters stuff is bogus their are several manufacturers of moonclip holders that work with 6rd 45 and 8rd 38/357, and the 625 and 627 will both fit in the exact same holster (with the same barrel length).

So you want to penalize someone that has bought their first revo as an 8-shot 'cause they just like the way a revo feels, because some excuses that have been passed down for years about the equipment race? You want to force them into divisions where you KNOW they can't compete fairly? Shame on you! You want to compete on the playing field using a revolver because you like the challenge of it, but since someone else likes a gun that holds 2 more rounds you don't want them to play with you. I guess I just don't get it. I understand the 2 shot advantage, but that exist in almost all other divisions too. You can pack a lot more 9mms (major) in a mag in open than you can 40s or 45s, the guns are almost the same, but there is a definite advantage in round count. In revo there is so much push back ... is it because we want to be "retro in revo"? What's the push back? Please help me understand 'cause right now all I hear is whining that I don't want a 8-shot and I don't want someone to beat me with an 8-shot.

Equipment races make manufacturers support us people, and I want the 7 or 8-shot 45 or 10mm revo.

[cliffwalsh]

but since someone else likes a gun that holds 2 more rounds you don't want them to play with you. I guess I just don't get it. I understand the 2 shot advantage, but that exist in almost all other divisions too.

Then why don't you shoot your 8 shot in production or L-10 where it is legal? If 2 more rounds is no big deal then your problem solved.

It seems to me like the whining is coming from people like you. If you 8 shot guys are such avid competitors, why do I not see any of you at major matches with your guns. If you want a rule change, the first step is to show up and shoot. If you can show there is interest, you might make some progress.

[Carmoney]

I'll tell you point-blank why there is push-back on this--we're already a group that is too small! Those of us that have been promoting USPSA Revolver Division on an ongoing basis are afraid--and may I say completely justifiably--that splintering us out into even smaller groups would eventually spell the death of the division. There are factions within USPSA (fortunately they seem to be dormant right now) that are looking for any excuse to dump us or make us a frickin' "category."

The truth is that nationally, there are only a tiny handful of guys that seriously want to shoot 8-shot revos in USPSA. This was plainly apparent when we polled this issue right here a couple years back.

If you want to play in Revo, step up and compete within the existing equipment rules--rules that met the approval of the vast majority of those who weighed in on the topic when we were given the chance to re-write them to expand the division a couple years ago. Nearly everyone said, "Keep it 6 shots between reloads, no optics or porting, but allow other custom options." USPSA's B.O.D. listened, the division was saved, and we're still here today. If you understand the history on this, you'll know exactly what I'm talking about.

If you really, really want to run an 8-shooter, you can certainly find (or start) an ICORE match or shoot steel with it. They're great guns that are really fun to shoot. But like Browning Hi-Powers and HK P7s, they don't happen to fit real well within any of the existing USPSA divisions. And that's OK.

[Matt Griffin]

And I might point out that the equipment race exists in people's minds, not in reality, in every division except Open. L10, Production, and Limited can and have been won with every combination of gun and gear. 8 shot revolvers (and let's be realistic, we're talking about a single model of a single brand of gun, the 627) are uncommon, expensive, only come in one caliber, and don't fit holsters. You're essentially asking 95% of competitors to completely change their gear in every single respect to accomodate a few guys who "might come back to USPSA" or "want to try revolver division." I'd like to shoot Nationals with a flamethrower in Open, I think I would have a good chance. I'm guessing a hit factor north of 20 on most stages, and I'd like to try Open division, so they really should let me compete. After all, they can just make an Open - Flamethrower category.

H.

[Bubber]

tomturner, You can compete with an 8 shot revo in revo, you just can only shoot 6 shots prior to a reload. Much the same as the competitors in L-10 that have high capacity magazines but load them down to 10 rounds. I would welcome you to any of the local matches I shoot at. I think we have the largest revo contigent on a local level and we have only 7 to 10 at the match. Most of the guys shoot the 625 variations but a few of us shoot the L or even K frame and we are competitive about it until we finish the stage and then it is back to teasing each other about this or that. There are four of us that like to shot the larger matches but when we can not get enough to be recognized at the awards table or even get a prize table we can walk through it will keep us shooting the local matches. On a note I think there were 10 or more of us at the Area 4 this year and we got a prize table and top A and B were recognized. Which for me is more important than any prize I would be able to take off the table. We don't want to chase anyone away from the Revo Division as I have shot for many years in the REVO CATEGORY. Well talked long enough, later rd

Edited July 21, 2010 by Bubber

[ChrisC]

so it all boils down to the fact that we need more ICORE..