Cash And Trophy Payouts

[Nolan]

Well gee, I guess the Olympics have got it wrong! Considering that they award trophies all the way down to second loser! (third place)

I think payouts, prizes, or trophies DO mean something to the average guy. Even on this forum not everybody here is going to be in the running for first place even on a good day. I suspect attendance would suffer if your payout scheme were known in advance and if not know in advance it probably will make people unhappy enough to consider not shooting the match the following year, if not actually angry enough to convene a lynch mob.

[ErikW]

Do the Olympics have 5 people competing in C Limited Javelin or 3 in M Open Bobsled? They are heads-up, no subdivisions (classes) matches.

[Neil Beverley]

I'm not sure my view will be the popular one but I'll offer it just the same, it might strike a chord with some.

I can go to the gun store to buy a few cartridges. I can go to the same store and buy a range bag. I can dig into my pockets for the cash to buy a new set of ear defenders.

I can't go to the store and buy a trophy engraved with the match details and placing. Actually I guess you could cheat and commission it to be done but then it's worthless if you didn't win it.

I shoot for fun. I shoot because I enjoy it, I enjoy the people I meet and I've travelled to some places that would never have otherwise have been a consideration.

I've won my fair share of trophies over the years, many are small and relatively cheap items but the memories and reminders are priceless.

How long does the $25 prize stay with you? I've still got my first trophy, a small (very) shield for best novice at a match (1987) and once in a while I notice it and I can remember the range, the organiser, some of the ROs, the guy I went with, the stages. I remember being shocked that I had won it and pleased that I had. Sad isn't it?

I distinctly remember a match that put up a unique trophy for first place and being disappointed that I wasn't good enough on the day. The guy that won it deserved it and took home something unique and not to be repeated. With a cash prize ......... ah well! There's always next year!

I've seen many others in the sport who have taken home a trophy with a proud smile on their face.

I'm not saying we shouldn't recognise the top winners to a greater degree but we shouldn't underestimate the importance of the trophy to some of the others and I'm not for a minute suggesting a prize for everone that turns up.

As I said before the cash prize is soon spent and forgotten.

Shoot. Win. End up with your entry fee discounted (net result). No thanks. I'd rather that money go to the newbie to encourage them and to make the sport stronger. I quite like the idea of them being encouraged enough to stay with it so they end up ROing instead of me.

Just my 2 cents worth. It doesn't make me a bad person!

[shred]

I agree.. I don't like cash payback matches, even when I win money.

Now plaques... I have a small collection of "3rd A-Open" plaques I kept winning one year. They're up on the I-love-Me wall just like the rest of 'em.

Locally, we only award place/class/division ribbons if you beat somebody. I've got no problem with matches that say if less than 4 people enter, you only award 1st, 6 or more for 2nd and so on..

[kimel]

Give plaques/medals/cups whatever to the top few and re-invest the money into better props, range improvements, etc. Or use it to defray the costs of a nice dinner.

The people winning the guns are NOT generally the people who "need" the guns. How many piles of prize guns must Robbie, TJ, et al have laying around? Or they sell them.

I prefer prize tables as random draw. That way everyone that hangs around for the awards ceremony gets something (if it is set up right).

[Vince Pinto]

Erik,

Do the Olympics have 5 people competing in C Limited Javelin or 3 in M Open Bobsled? They are heads-up, no subdivisions (classes) matches.

Point taken about the number of participants, but many Olympic sports have weight classes (e.g. boxing, wrestling), others have equipment classes (e.g. shooting, archery, fencing) and so on.

[ErikW]

Neil, if you're that sentimental you could just frame your award check (cheque?) instead of depositing or cashing it.

Vince, but nowhere do they have classifications based on past performances or subjective tests.

Anybody mentioning prize tables and prize guns isn't paying attention. The question is whether to cut off 2nd and 3rd in class from cash and/or plaques?

[TheOtherErik]

Neil, if you're that sentimental you could just frame your award check (cheque?) instead of depositing or cashing it.

I still have my $25 check form last year. Im sure my section treasurer thanks me for it. If fact I know quite a few people that have their checks still uncashed. 25 bucks is almost meaningless. Id rather have a 5 dollar plaque than 25 bucks.

IF I was in your MD shoes I would give money/ plaque to 1st in class and small plaques to 2nd and 3rd. In the last few years the section match hasn't given plaques for 2nd and 3rd. 3rd place in some classes is quite an acomplishment and should be reconized. $175 for class winner is cool if the match fee is $100 or lower.

[Nolan]

if you ain't the lead dog, the scenery never changes...

This attitude stinks (Sorry Tightloop, just couldn't resist the pun!)

Thanks Neil, for putting it into better words than I did.

I think the 'Winner take all', "Second place is first loser' attitudes do little for our sport. It certainly doesn't encourage the new shooter who is just starting in the game to see such attitudes that imply directly or indirectly that anything less than first place is unworthy. Saying "You suck because you didn't win" will encourage some to work harder to succeed, but it will cause far more to just walk away from the sport because they get enough of this type of attitude elsewhere.

Erik,

Cash payouts for the class winners is fine, but you need to recognize the 2nd, and 3rd place shooters with plaques, trophies, something! I still remember the look on your face when you got your first 2nd place trophy. Of course I can't remember which match it was

[ErikW]

Actually, I could cover all classes and all divisions in the next couple section championships with the 2nd and 3rd place plaques in my garage. You're in charge of the plaque recycling committee. BYO Sharpie.

[Neil Beverley]

I think we ought to consider a degree of relativity here.

If a guy comes tenth out of eleven it's not much to shout about and shouldn't get a trophy.

If a guy comes tenth out of a thousand then it is something to shout about. Not because he's the ninth loser, because 9 people beat him, but because he beat the other 990.

This logic applies for any class or division.

A sliding scale can be useful. I'm not proposing that the numbers below are right I'm simply suggesting an approach. Say:

5 entries - Award something for 1st

10 entries - Awards for 1 & 2

20 entries - Awards for 1 - 3

30 entries - Awards for 1 - 4

etc.

You can play with the numbers yourselves but like I said I believe it's about relativity.

Some may prefer to only award 1st - 3rd for 100 entries. Personally I think that's a bit mean. To take an extreme, "winner take all" out of 1000 entries is a bit harsh on the guy that came second.

[Skywalker]

I'd second Neil's ideas and posts.

Let's say you are a C or B class shooter in Standard Division; you compete in a sanctioned league match against other 25/30 competitors all in your class (no joking, it is what usually happens in Open, Standard and Production Divisions here in Italy): then somebody says "we no longer award a medal or plaque to 2nd and 3rd (out of 30), just to the 1st.

What is actually happening here in Italy is that the very same competitors are getting disinterested in attending these matches, since their feeling is the match organizers are only interested in making money.

Agree with them or not, this is what is actually happening.

And the solution our Federation is bringing out for the 2004 league is to specify how many trophies and medals (prizes are at organizers willing) have to be awarded at league matches according to each class and category participants number, in the same way IPSC defines requirements for divisions and categories to be recognized in level III or higher matches.

[Julien Boit]

Here in France, we do something I find nice when there is a decent prize table.

First, second and third shooters gets a medal and can tour the table first.

After all divisions were awarded, All shooters are called in order of their finish to tour the table, top three in all divisions already had their trophies and can't go once more.

Pros : ALL shooters can take something from the table (as long as the prize table is big enough ) weither this is belts, ammo boxes, gun lube , cleaning rod........

Cons : The big lots are always taken by top three Open because they are awarded first

The nicest prize table I saw was at last year's Medcup.

At least two Dillon electric primer filler, range bags, ammo bags, Safariland belts, holsters ...

And SPS offered a Modified pistol for the OAL winner in this division ,which I trade with them for a limited pistol for my father as I was lucky enough to win this match.

[Sterling White]

Advertising a cash payback can be risky business without a good financial plan. The setup/prep, misc. items, range fees, and hotels (if needed) all cost money. If done properly, the match cost would be covered by receipts from the previous year...its kinda like setting aside money right now to cover a bill that you will be receiving. I'm guessing but have a good feeling that match directors have a pretty good idea what the total cost will be, so they should be able to set that money aside for the next time. The net of the money could then be channeled back by div/class from which it had been collected or could be award to overall finish and class/stage winners receive ribbons or trophies.

[dpeters8445]

I also agree with Neil. Give prizes out based on the amount of people in a given class per division. I think that for every 10 shooters in a class in a division you should give a Prize.

Example:

Open

B Class

1-10 Competitors 1st place only

11-20 Competitore 1st and 2nd place

21-30 Competitors 1st, 2nd and 3rd place

This system allows you to base your prizes on entry fees and you shouldn't end up in the hole.

Like someone said earlier, the plaques and trophies for class winners don't need to be anything fancy, it's the thought that counts. Save the better prizes for the high overall divisional winners.

[tightloop]

I'm sorry, but I accumulated enough 2nd and 3rd trophies when I was new in this thing. When I moved I chunked them.

You need to face it, this isn't ever going to be a mass fan appeal sport line baseball or football the excitement just isn't there. Neither will it ever attract the great unwashed masses, too radical, and too "gun" oriented for all the leftists. It isn't for everyone. If they REALLY want to shoot, they will stick around, if not, fine.

Also, it was never ment to support PRO shooters, in any fashion, so those thinking in that direction will go wanting..

I just rather enjoyed being able to talk to another shooter at the Natl's without the first phrase coming out of their mouth being, "what class are you in?"...

[Singlestack]

I'm sorry, but I accumulated enough 2nd and 3rd trophies when I was new in this thing. When I moved I chunked them.

Perhaps others would like to have the same opportunity.

[tightloop]

I understand, but it is kind of like being Vice President, no one remembers who it was. They never ment that much to me, but you are right, it might to others. I will always remember the matches I won, but the ones that I came in 2nd or 3rd or lower, even I don't remember the circumstances surrounding them.

[EricW]

Ron said:

My sentiments exactly and that's why I despise the notion of paying out cash by classification. Why should a GM or M who is in the top of the heap overall (but in the cellar in their class) go away with nothing while the first place A, B, C, and D class shooters walk off with cash? Once again, we reward mediocrity, incompetence, and maybe even cheating (sandbagging).

Amen Brother Ron! Enough of the class payouts/prizes. Push the prizes down to the top ten shooters if spreading the wealth is the goal.

[ErikW]

Yeah but look at our top ten (of 45 Limited, of 63 Open) shooters the last time we hosted the match:

1 Taran L2354 GM

2 Bruce L542 GM

3 Erik A36569 M

4 Dave TY41695 A

5 Mike A11012 GM

6 John A23552 GM

7 Dave A6582 M

8 Tom TY40061 GM

9 John TY24736 M

10 David TY31091 A

1 K.C. TY36570 M

2 Steve L2191 A

3 James TY36874 A

4 Greg A32856 A

6 Francis A11385 M

7 Clete A29452 M

8 Russell L2391 M

9 Carl A19294 M

10 Ross 2581 M

Paying out the top ten, almost all the money would go to Ms and GMs, leaving about 75 Bs, Cs, and a few Ds asking, "WTF!?" That's the way a prize table should be, overall heads up, but not this match.

Maybe I should say to hell with it, let's lower the entry fee as much as possible and don't pay out a dime.

Y'know what, this is turning into a run-of-the-mill "award structure" thread. Back on topic: only HOA, section champ, categories, and high class finishers will be recognized, not the top n overall. The question is whether to recognize 2nd and 3rd place class finishers or just 1st place?

Edited January 23, 2004 by Erik Warren

[D.Hayden]

Maybe I should say to hell with it, let's lower the entry fee as much as possible and don't pay out a dime.

I'd rather have the entry fee smaller. Do people really go to make money? Isn't it more for the competition and the bragging rights? If matches were half the cost, that's a lot more practice ammo.

If you have to give money, give it to first, then small plaques/trophy's to 2nd/3rd depending on the number of pre-registered entrants in that class

[kdj]

Trying to answer Eric's Question as asked :-)

I think that, given the conditions you set, you should only recognise the 1st in each class. It gives those of us further down the food chain something to aspire to, without removing the focus from the fact that only HOA didn't have someone do better.

I'd also voice the opinion that a cash prize that doesn't cover way more than the cost of entry plus ammo plus ... is not worth doing and they should all be rolled up into fewer prizes that would be worth one aspiring to.

I don't think this is the kind of topic you will ever get consensus on. It's almost theological

[MVZ]

Erik

I think you should do all 1st in class or do none and lower the match fees

mvz

[SRT Driver]

Yes, lower the match fee and give the divisional winners a little cash.

Forget the dust collectors and the pound of Accurate Super Bullseye #49 that no one uses.

[Sterling White]

Has anyone taken a look at the Steel Challenge or the Sportsman Team Challenge? Mentioning the name of those two events to a competitor who has seen or shot the events know that there is money to be had. The cash payback is not generated entirely by entry fees....right? So, where does the money come from and what are the marketing aspects that drive these matches to be successful? My my my....look at the sponsor list.

here is the link: http://www.steelchallenge.com/steelchallenge/2003/