Cash And Trophy Payouts

[LIBERTY]

Eric, I am shocked to read your quote. Keep your stinking prizes, plaques, and silly ribbons for "1st B, fat guy." I assume you are a skinny person and i hope you don't like to make fun of people’s weight.

As a Moderator I think you should clarify what you mean by FAT GUY. I myself would never make fun of the way people look.

This topic was started to see how shooters feel about the way prizes are given out and not to make fun about shooters weight. What’s next, big feet?? NOW, LETS HEAR FROM THE FAT SHOOTERS.

[EricW]

Liberty,

It was a sarcastic reference to my own gigantic derriere. Skinny is not an attribute anyone would use to describe me.

[Guest Larry Cazes]

Erik, I say scrap the cash payouts and prize tables from all area matches, give out plaques, pins or patches to 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place division winners, and drop the entry fees as low as possible. I shoot USPSA because I enjoy it, not to win money or prizes from a table and of course the lower fees will allow me to go to more matches. When the prizes become the dominant reason for me to shoot matches, I'll look for something else to take up my spare time. I like the idea of patches or pins for all but the 1st place division winners as well. Any type of recognition for 2nd and 3rd place winners is appreciated but keep it cheap because its the recognition not the item that counts for those of us that have never won a match. Since I don't think the current classification system does a good job of judging a shooters abilities, I would not give out prizes by class........Just my $.02.

[Jim Norman]

Paying to Division winners, 1st, 2nd, 3rd overall is fine, except that most of us will soon grow tired of supporting Todd, Robbie, David, Jerry, and a small handful of others. They are going to win. Most of us have jobs, families and other things that will forever keep us from being Number One in the world. So, we create Classifications. Then we pay 1st, 2nd, 3rd in class. I know many people that due to age, eyesight, infirmity will never progress beyond "C" or "D" class. They enjoy the shooting, They enjoy the competition and they run a hard race to be where they are. Many of these people have to put in a supreme effort to achieve what they have achieved. This having been said, there are people that are what is termed sandbaggers. They specialize in shooting just well enough to win at a local level, but not well enough to move up in class. It used to be as I understand it, that winning your class at a major match was almost a sure ticket to moving up to the next class. That was because in order to win your class, you were most likely shooting well above your percentage. I have won my class at several larger matches. So far I have not won by shooting above my class. This is due largely to the extreme spread between the really top level GM's and the rest of us mere mortals. When the top GM wins and the number two position is 13% lower, it skews the results. Do we toss out the GM Score and bump everyone else? If so, make it a rule and I'll abide.

Should we revisit the classification system whereby we take the top 6 of the most current 8 valid scores for classification? Should this become a best 6 of the last 12 months regardless of how many matches you shoot? Should it be High 6 scores of a lifetime of shooting? Should we adopt an IDPA Style where there is a "Classifier Match and you shoot that and that is your class? 6 stages, some far more complex as to shooting solution than the current crop of classifier stages, make them more like a "Real Match" and when shot, that?s it, that is your class for that gun. Run that match at least once a year at each club in an area on a national basis.

I don't pretend to have an answer here. This started out as should we pay top down or Class winners. I think that in general the class winner is the way to go. It provides a stepping stone along the way to the top. I do think that the Match winner should get more than High A, B, C, or D. It is certainly fair in that sense. But to not award any but the top three would kill the sport. And that goes whether the prizes are trophies or $$. And paying class winners beats the Lewis system where you win simply by the luck of the draw.

My $0.02

Jim Norman

[JFD]

At this point in time I'm in the top 10 in "C" class and that "should" equate to a good chance of winning my class until I get my "B" card. I'll find out at the SC State match.

With that said, I'd like to see cash/prizes awarded by overall finish. Modifying it to focus more on divisional winners wouldn't be too bad either and might be better for the sport. No way do I want to win my class with a 15th place overall score and walk away with more than the chap who finished 14th or better. Class winners should probably get a certificate at best to commemorate what could be a heck of a personal achievement (or "really good" sandbagging). Top prizes for class winners would just encourage more sandbagging.

The absolute worst thing to me is any kind of random prize distribution. I can play the lottery if I want that....or shoot IDPA.

I check the overall results myself and that's about all I really care about. At local matches I know who I should beat, so I check their results to make sure all is well. The only other thing that interests me is how many Limited and Open shooters I was able to beat (if any). As a L-10 shooter, beating the big stick shooters gives me a decent thrill.

I'm fairly new to USPSA, so I'd like to have the chance to visit a prize table or get a cash prize before I die of old age. I'd likely win once fired primers or the MD's loose pocket change, but it would still be cool.

[Chuck D]

This question has been kicked around since the early 90's.

USPSA as explained to me by my AD Rob Boudrie is a "self funding" sport in regards to the revenue it raises.

No one in as far as I'm aware is "donating" large amounts of cash to give away as prizes to any Sectionals or Area match...at least in my part of the country.

We keep TRYING to build a "self funding" sport that lacks the revenue into a Semi-Pro...Professional sport that offers Cash as prizes.

Knowing full well that history repeats itself...when do we learn that the "cash prize" road is one that's difficult to travel?

No matter HOW the cash is distributed...someone isn't happy...someone feels shortchanged and most importantly...someone is priced out of competing at the match due to the high entry fee.

Keep the "cash payouts" for the Nationals...keep the Sectionals and Area matches affordable for the average member.

[shred]

Yeah, cash is about the worst prize to give out, no matter how you do it.

Product is cheap to give. Rob posted a while back that a $10,000 prize table doesn't cost the shooter more than maybe $10 or $20 of their $100+ entry fee. Why? Because shooting-industry sponsors can give away $1000 'retail value' product without it costing them near as much. I know even when I was bottom-of-the-barrel, I came away from prize matches with way over $20 worth of stuff from Area 4. Last place last year got way over that.

[ErikW]

Soliciting and obtaining prizes is a major hassle for the match staff.

Everybody's fixated on the cash part of the question. Perhaps I should reword it:

Is it desireable, acceptable, or unacceptable to award only one deep per class (rather than up to three deep)?

[Chuck D]

Awards given for First, Second and Third place is a time honored tradition (the Olympic Games is a perfect example).

Limiting the number of awards to First Place only in a division smacks of elitism.

You can say "second place is first loser" all you want but for some people...the most cherished award is the one they've received when they "placed" well enough in a big match to be awarded something for their efforts.

While I'm not in favor of the "award for everyone" policy, we should award something to the top three in each division WHEN the numbers of competitors in a division are large enough to justify the awarding of "something".

I personally believe the awarding of cash or the concentration of awards to first place finishers only is the wrong policy.

[ErikW]

Match winner plus five first-in-class awards is still 16 awards per division, for Ltd, L10, and Open alone. Add one for the Revolver winner and the top three in Production... 52 awards.

I think I need to raise the entry fee.

[LIBERTY]

Is there truly a match winner??? I say NO!! Open is almost always going to be the top dog/cat. With all the divisions at a match, each division winner is a champ. If you put a top fuel cars time at the drags up agents a stock car (who wins)??? The ONLY way to have a match champion is to have a shoot off. Now try and work out a way to have a fair shoot off. I leave you with this question. Are not all the winners of each division match champions????? and who should go to the prize table first????

and that is my $00.02

[D.Hayden]

If the awards/plaques (whatever) are cheap enough for 2nd/3rd, then give them out, otherwise skip it... make the match cheaper to enter... 1st class/division only.

I'd just cut and paste Larry's post above..

[ErikW]

<banging head against monitor>

[D.Hayden]

<banging head against monitor>

Ahh... that's why you needed the new one. Leave the old one on your desk for this...

I'll add...

If you're putting the match on, do what you think your audience wants, and is reasonable. People will go or not. And they'll be so many 180 degree views it's impossible to please everyone...

If the fees get to high to give out trophy's/plaques/money people may stay away, or you'll attract others. Isn't this like debating politics?

Edited February 29, 2004 by BerKim

[Chuck D]

<banging head against monitor>

You ASKED didn't you?

I give you credit for that...I've been to some matches where you pay a pretty hefty fee...place in the top three...sometimes win your division...and get NOTHING in return.

Do what you think is right...the "marketplace" will decide if you did the right thing or not...

Believe me , you'll hear virtually everyones opinions/comments loud and clear.

[Flexmoney]

What is the goal?

Sounds like you'd like to entice the big dogs from down south to come and play? Nothing wrong with that.

Does that please the rest of the customers?

Only you can decide that?

Anything else, and you are asking what color of grips to put on your new blaster.

[D.Hayden]

Is it desireable, acceptable, or unacceptable to award only one deep per class (rather than up to three deep)?

Last idea... I think it was talked about before... why not award based on pre-registrations for that Division/Class? For every 4 or 5 add an award?

4 = entires 1st only

8 = entries 1st and 2nd

12+ = entries 1st, 2nd, 3rd?

[Guest Larry Cazes]

ACCEPTABLE! As I said before......Since this match is in the SF bay area, do what you can to keep the entry fee low and you should maximise the turnout.

[ErikW]

Update, just to put things in perspective and address why this is a concern...

I learned the smallest plaque (6"x8") will cost $21.

[rhino]

Yikes! Could you do a better at another trophy shop, even if you include shipping charges?

[shred]

Plaques for some reason always seem ridiculously overpriced. You would think by now they could crank them out with a custom laser printer, water-jet or something.

[Jim Norman]

In the Mid-Atlantic Section for club atches this is out prize structure:

Division Winner: $ 30.00 (5 in division)

Class Winner: $ 20.00 (3 shooters in class)

Second Place: $ 12.00 (8 shooters in class)

Third Place: $ 8.00 (15 shooters in class)

For Division and Class winner a Plaque may be substituted for Cash. It should be of about the same value as the cash award.

Match Fees:

Non-USPSA Memeber $ 25.00

USPSA Memeber, but not member of host club $ 20.00

USPSA Memeber, and member of host club fee can be discounted.

There area a couple other levels, Husband and Wife, Junior with guardian.

A shooter is also encouraged to join USPSA at a local match, He pays the $40 to join and the match fee for that match is waived.

Jim Norman

[MarkS_A18138]

I know the best place to buy Plaques. It's from Emanuel Bragg he had awesome prices. He beat all the internetsites I found! He also is a USPSA support and head of the Jr's Program.

[TheOtherErik]

Update, just to put things in perspective and address why this is a concern...

I learned the smallest plaque (6"x8") will cost $21.

That seems awefully expensive...did you shop around? Lastly are you obligated to use the same guy that suplies the club with plaques? Also to cut down on the initial expense, I would only pre order plaques that I know would be needed. (i.e. don't order a 3rd GM in Revolver division). Base your order on last year match and if you have to order one after the fact that is usualy no big deal.

[Jim Norman]

Awarding each possible winner in a Division should never be a problem. If you reserve a percentage of the match funds to pay out in prizes and you follow any sort of system, you shouldn’t lose money. Now, that assumes that you of course do reach a certain minimum enrollment to hold the match. At the club level, you are safe, if you don't get enough shooters in any particular class or division, you shoot for fun. At a larger match, there is some risk, you have advertising costs and some other expenses that have to be met. Printing costs, Shirts and the like can usually be held off long enough to reach a certain pre-determined registration level before placing orders. A 30 day no refund policy usually makes that work.

We have 5 Divisions, 6 Classes, GM can only have a division win, (I suppose you could have 15 GM's in a division and have to pay 2nd and 3rd places) then High Master through High D, with 2nd and 3rd paid only if there are a certain number of competitors. In fact, at the local level, as I stated earlier, you only pay if there are enough in a Division or Class. We have paid as an example, High X Revolver, but no Revolver Match winner because we had 3 X's, but not 5 in the division.

Applying simple mathematics we would need 380 shooters to pay all the way down to 15 shooters in each class in each division, plus one GM in each division to win HOA.

Now, if I were to be a D Class shooter and I won over the other 15 D's I'd be happy to get High D, same for having bested the other 13 D's to get 3rd D. This is how I know I felt as a C and B shooter. True, i have always looked at the list ahead of me as opposed to those behind me to gauge my performance and see if I was catching up. But as is human nature, I also looked behind me to see who I had beat. Call it the "Private Race Syndrome" I know my scores are based on Todd or Robbie, but I am not really competing against them, I am competing against those that are in "My" class.

A few of you have indicated that winning anything other than the whole match is a hollow victory. Good for you. You are either very good and may actually be winning your divisions (although I doubt it since most of the top shooters I have met seem to have more empathy for the rest of us mere mortals than you seem to have) or you are just spouting off. Either way, If you win a plaque or a check for anything other than match winner, I expect that you will either give it to the match winner, or donate it to a worthy charity.

As several others have said, if it were not for the B's, C's and D's, there wouldn't be much of a match. I would be careful telling all of then that they are just "Also-Rans" and thanks for the contribution to the prizes for the top 1-16 or whatever.

Yes, I agree that Match Winner is the goal, but for all but a very few it is realistically an unachievable goal. Most shooters get to shoot a few times a month, or if they are really lucky a few times a week. Most of the Big Dogs get to shoot every day and most have sponsors to pay their way. They can Eat-Sleep and Drink shooting.

Take away any incentive for the A-D classes to show up and you will not have a sport. Lets look at the number of shooters in each Division and the classes in each:

In Open, Limited, L-10 and Production there are enough Shooters to pay all the way down in each class, in revolver you can not pay three Masters and there is only one GM. If we were to only ever pay the top dogs, say 1-3 in a match, who would show up? There are only 232 G’s total, there are 1020 M’s, so out of the 14,000 plus active USPSA shooters, who would be likely to win a major match, the G or maybe a really lucky M, so we have fewer than 10 percent of the shooters likely bother showing up. Now remember that a lot of those G’s and M’s are multiple Classed and there for the number shrinks to maybe 3 percent. So the last Nationals would have had what, 40 shooters? This is not NASCAR or the Indy 500. Entry fees are a couple hundred dollars, not a few thousand or tens of thousands. This is for the most part local dirt track (pardon the rough analogy) but if we don’t pay the classes, we soon enough won’t have the G’s because we won’t have an organization.

My apologies for the long rant. Sometimes I get a hull stuck in my craw and I just have to get it out.

Jim Norman