ErikW Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 What if your section champsionship, which traditionally has paid a small amount of cash to the top three in each class, paid a larger amount of cash to the class winner only? (E.g., instead of $100, $50, $25, it's $175 class winner take all.) What if second and third place in each class didn't get trophies or plaques? Please, no letter bombs or death threats from the NorCal section. I'm just brainstorming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 Erik, this is exactly what's happening with Italian League IPSC matches. We used to award plaques/medals/trophies to 2nd and 3rd in each class (for every division, since at each match we have some 200/250 competitors), but now there is a tendency to award prizes and the above to the 1st only. I can report the competitors (I mean the average ones, not the big dogs) are being slightly p*§§#d off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BerettaRacer Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 Pay people to sandbag???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 Skywalker, If I'm not mistaken, young Erik is talking about cash payouts, not recognition (medals, trophies) and, as far as I know, the USA is the only Region which has cash prizes, and one of only a handful which has "prize tables" (and constant debates and arguments arising therefrom). Please hold my hand and tell me Italy does not have cash payouts ...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogmaDog Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 Erik, I don't see what is at issue...is there a problem with the way it is currently done? DD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julien Boit Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 We did it once in france, it was around 150 euros (175 dollars). But nothing big since that day. It happened last year to awards top three shooters on a particular stage (an El Presidente) with cash (very small amount ) on both standard and open division. Prize table ? ?? It depends on matches, sometimes it huge, sometimes it's ridiculous : OAL winner: A bottle of wine Second place: A bottle of wine Third: A bottle of wine 10th place: a bottle of wine ........................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 I like it. To me second is first place loser. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 To me second is first place loser. My sentiments exactly and that's why I despise the notion of paying out cash by classification. Why should a GM or M who is in the top of the heap overall (but in the cellar in their class) go away with nothing while the first place A, B, C, and D class shooters walk off with cash? Once again, we reward mediocrity, incompetence, and maybe even cheating (sandbagging). I am realistic enough to know that my opinion is out of the mainstream and the class system is here to stay. As long as folks insist on a class system, I think the majority of the cash and prize awards should go to the top shooters overall and recognition awards (i.e, trophies) should go to the winners of classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sterling White Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 Sometime back a group of us discussed this same issue and came up with a way to award cash payback based on performance....if interested, it can be found in a string call: Point Series, Thoughts while sipping a cup of coffee just an idea! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 Vince, here in Italy prize tables are composed of plaques/medals/trophies and IPSC shooting related goodies (ranging from guns to reloading stuff and so on). We do not award cash to Division/Class winners, and we surely don't intend to do so! Anyway, competitors are still being slightly p*§§#d off by this change. Julien, 10th place: a bottle of wine ... I wouldn't be p*§§#d off by a bottle of "Veuve Clicquot"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james h Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 THE system in the UK is 30% of entry fees HAS to go on prizes medals etc so it tends to be Big cup medium cup little cup and medals down to 10th at some venues others its crystal tumblers or decanters. No one seems to mind if they dont get any thing but i think it would be wrong not to present something tangible to 1st loser 2nd loser etc prizes per classification are 1st master only and 1 to 3 in each other grade in all recognised divisions...oh and then ladies ...and juniors....and seniors...super seniors......................................yes prizegiving goes on a bit. Where you have a large pool then a big payout for first would help to attact more GOOD media attention as well as generate interest from otherwise apathetic competitors. j Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julien Boit Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 I wouldn't be p*§§#d off by a bottle of "Veuve Clicquot"... You wish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 Hereabouts at larger matches, the B, C & D class results always seem to have one or sometimes two people that are way above everybody else in that class.. Some say the classification system hasn't caught up to them yet, some say they're sandbaggers. Anyway, it annoys the perpetual 2nd/3rd in-class people (who see the 1st sporting a new classification two weeks after the match) to give everything to somebody that is in the right place at the right time merely through class-inertia, intentional or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdj Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 THE system in the UK ... No one seems to mind if they dont get any thing Having shot in both the US and the UK, there's one huge difference: In the UK (at least back in the dark ages), prizes meant some kind of trophy ranging from a nice cup to a plastic medal. In the US, prizes often mean a nice custom gun worth $$$. It does change some people's perspective. Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdj Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 It seems to me that the classes are nice to give people a chance to get something but that the something should be proportional to the overall position in the scheme of things. Invitations to the nationals for top D are good. A nice *liitle* trophy for top D is a feel good gesture that encourages those of us who look for their scores from the bottom of the list to feel some sense of achievement and that's good. The serious prizes and real braging rights should go to the highest over all since they are the people who have really done the best. Most of these, of course, will be GMs and that's right since they've earned it. My ("not in my self interest") opinion Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dunn Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 Give the money to the division winners, plaques to others. Or better yet, scrap the money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 After the marathon six hour awarding ceremony at WSXIII, the actual awarding ceremony (e.g. the dinner) at future major IPSC matches (Level IV and Level V) will be going to a simple Gold, Silver, Bronze format on a Division, Division/Category, Division/ICS and Shoot-Off basis which, on a "worst case" basis, already amounts to 110 medals or trophies. If a Match Director wants to give out other awards for Stage winners, Best Looking RO and Most Unsportsmanlike Socks, he's free to do so at the range after the Shoot-Off or whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sterling White Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 I think there should be a chrono award given for the highest PF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 Sterling, I agree. In fact I often brag how I beat Eric, Robbie and Todd on one stage and, when someone asks "You did? Which stage??", I reply "The Chrono Stage". Another comment which made me wet my shorts a few years back was when I asked a fellow Australian returning from Chrono "Did you make Major?" and, without batting an eyelid, he replied "Hell, yes. In fact, I made Colonel". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted January 22, 2004 Author Share Posted January 22, 2004 A little more background... This has not been and won't be a prize table match. The division winners (or highest-placing section residents in each) are the section champions and are awarded with hundreds of dollars each. (Limited and Open; if the other divisions were as well-subscribed, the money would be paid accordingly.) I have two main reasons for asking your opinions. First, I, and others received small awards of $25 or so, and we would rather have that money go back to sweeten the pot for the others. Second, I, and other Ms and GMs who finish high overall, have more of a "winner take all, screw the classes" attitude... to wit, Ron and BSeevers above. I want to hear from the people who, on a good day, might win 1st in class, but are likely to compete for 2nd or 3rd. If all we had were one (non-) division, this would be a no-brainer. But with five divisions diluting the classes, does 2nd or 3rd in class really mean anything substantial? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 Erik To answer your last question first; if you ain't the lead dog, the scenery never changes... Winner take all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Meek Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 Reward by overall performance. If you need or want, give plaques to class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 I bet you would draw more shooters if you don't take a "winner take all" attitude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted January 22, 2004 Author Share Posted January 22, 2004 Or I could just not advertise the payout and trophy structures. Does anybody get excited about $25 for 3rd B Limited or a plaque for 2nd C Limited 10? Think of all the money saved by eliminating 2/3 of the plaques. Don't forget, we're in a recession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Hayden Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 It's a while for me to win 'D's shooting a pistol, but I do ok in Trap - I found it more embarrasing to win some small prize - save it for the winner. A few dollars will go right through your wallet. It sort of depends on how many shooters there were. I don't think 3rd place 'D' Limited-10, out of 5 shooters would mean much. 3rd 'D' out of 20-30 Limited-10 would be cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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