DogmaDog Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 I think recognizing top B, C, and D shooters is a good idea. In more mainstream sports, like baseball or whatever, competitors compete in different conferences based on skill level or size of the college, or whatever, and a NCAA Division 3 team can compete against and win against other Div 3 teams, and get a trophy. A kid on the Junior Varsity team has a chance to be the JV champion, even though all the Varsity players can kick his butt. In USPSA, we just don't have the quantity of shooters it would require to have separate tournaments for different classes, but we can, and should still recognize shooters at those levels for performing their best in competition against their peers. NRA Highpower Rifle competitions do this, and CMP competition recognizes the top 10% of non-distinguished shooters in a match. DD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter Grrl Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 I want to hear from the people who, on a good day, might win 1st in class, but are likely to compete for 2nd or 3rd. Here I am - 2nd C Class in THREE sectionals! More money to class winner is fine, but you still need to award plaques or some doodads to 2nd and 3rd - at least (especially?) in the lower classes. For many new shooters in NorCal, the GB is their ONLY major match experience and it really does mean something to them to take home that plaque to show their buddies. (Remember Devin's face when she won?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jef Posted January 28, 2004 Share Posted January 28, 2004 I'm sorry, but I accumulated enough 2nd and 3rd trophies when I was new in this thing. When I moved I chunked them.You need to face it, this isn't ever going to be a mass fan appeal sport line baseball or football the excitement just isn't there. Neither will it ever attract the great unwashed masses, too radical, and too "gun" oriented for all the leftists. It isn't for everyone. If they REALLY want to shoot, they will stick around, if not, fine. Also, it was never ment to support PRO shooters, in any fashion, so those thinking in that direction will go wanting.. I just rather enjoyed being able to talk to another shooter at the Natl's without the first phrase coming out of their mouth being, "what class are you in?"... I agree with Tightloop. Screw the new shooters and their shooting experience! Once I got my C classification I too knew everything, headed to the Nationals, and never looked back! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOtherErik Posted January 29, 2004 Share Posted January 29, 2004 I'm sorry, but I accumulated enough 2nd and 3rd trophies when I was new in this thing. When I moved I chunked them. But, I bet you were proud of yourself when your first few.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted January 29, 2004 Share Posted January 29, 2004 Yes, I was proud for the moment, but if you read my first post on this topic, I said and I still stick by my statement that I remember EVERY match I won, but none of the others, regardless of a 2nd or 3rd finish... It is different with everyone. I was never satisfied unless I won it, HOA, but to some folks that doesn't matter and they are just as proud with a 2nd or 4th, and I guess they deserve that recognition as well as HOA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted January 29, 2004 Share Posted January 29, 2004 I can relate to what tightloop says. I used to like trophies, but they lose their luster over time. I had a room full of PPC trophies, literally over a 100 of them. I took them to the dump 10 years ago just to get rid of the clutter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AikiDale Posted January 29, 2004 Share Posted January 29, 2004 It seems to me the cash prizes at best defray a part of the cost of the match for a winner. The prize table system is demeaning, imho. Awards recognize acomplishment and serve as mementos for the competitors. I would suggest we take a look at other amature sports and learn from them. Many athletes compete for little more than a ribbon and the honor of competing. A long, long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away, my fellow Judoka and I beat and strangled one another senseless for the glory and an occasional medal or trophy, 1st through 3rd in each weight division. (This was where I learned battle is glorious, wounds heal and chicks love scars). My girl friend is a long time Dressage rider. She has enough ribbons in enough colors to make a float for the Rose Bowl Parade, and a few sets of very nice crystal glasses from winning the occasional major competition. All that said here is my suggestion: For the larger competitions I would be happy with a ribbon award system for all but the division winners. Give them a cup or something to mark the event they can actually use like an engraved Mint Julep Cup. Give the rest of the competitors, the hundreds of shooters who make the sport, including the major competitions, possible a small token indicating they were there in appreciation. Personally, I just want to see my name at the top of the list, or, as close as I can get today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted January 29, 2004 Author Share Posted January 29, 2004 Hmm. I amassed quite a collection of "finishers pins" from off-road races. (Cloissone pins, I think they are called? Enamel on brass?) They are kind of cool because each is unique. One guy I knew had a table in his RV/hauler covered with finishers pins and topped with glass. I wonder how "competitor pins" would go over. By the way, we are going to be a USPSA tournament so we will have President's Medals to award. I think they only go to class and category winners; I never quite figured out how it works and how I earned the few I have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul B Posted January 29, 2004 Share Posted January 29, 2004 I don't know if it is ever necessary to have cash payouts at Club matches. At larger matches cash should be used to only reward the best in class When there are no other prizes. Whatever happened to plaques, ribbons and certificates? In my part of the country, club matches are strictly for bragging rights as all the clubs have stopped giving out plaques or formal recognition of any kind to class winners. Even at a recent state match (that cost $100 to enter) most class winners received nothing. I think we are missing a big bet here. I value my wall full of plaques (won before the clubs stopped using them) more than any cash prizes I have won. I look upon them with pride that renews everytime I see them. New shooters would certainly have the same sense of accomplishment as they won their first few "prizes." It doesn't have to be plaques, I shot at a club in Fla that gave away ribbons - I still have mine. This certainly can't cost much and would mean a lot without making match fees excessive. Does everything have to be about money or is it accomplishment and recognition? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sterling White Posted January 29, 2004 Share Posted January 29, 2004 Given a choice of money or a door stop or dust collector....I would opt for the big bucks baby! I laughs myself silly.....should have been a golfer or fish'n with RollinMartin for the big bucks huh!!! Every bit of money that I win goes right back into reloading equipment, guns, or gas to get to the next match....so yes, every little bit helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ong45 Posted January 31, 2004 Share Posted January 31, 2004 I vote to give the divisional winners a decent amount of cash. If this gets some of the hotshots from socal (or wherever) to come up , it would for me be worth not having class awards. James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted January 31, 2004 Share Posted January 31, 2004 Hey guys, Call me crazy, but if I want to win a prize for shooting, I go to Coney Island. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sterling White Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 Vince, Am not sure that I'd call it crazy.... maybe brave is a better word! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LIBERTY Posted February 27, 2004 Share Posted February 27, 2004 Erik, $$$ to the TOP SHOOTERS. Will his include all below GM equally? If the answer is yes, STOP reading. If no, keep reading. How about the B-C-D shooters that make up about 90% of all the money coming in. When will this shooting sport and the SPONSORS going to wake up and realize that the GM's are not spending a ton of money on products and start recognizing who is. If the B-C and D shooters stay home, how many shooters do you think matches will have? NOT MANY IT IS ABOUT TIME FOR ALL THE B-C AND D SHOOTERS TO STAND UP AND SAY. "NO MORE" show me the same $$$$$$ and prizes, or we stay home. Just for the fun of it, LETS HEAR A VOTE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdj Posted February 27, 2004 Share Posted February 27, 2004 As a B-C-D shooter, I completely disagree with the previous statement. I perform averagely therefore I don't expect to win anything significant. I intend to get better and then I will have the same opportunity to win some thing significant as the people who already have the talent and have paid their dues in time and effort. A nice token gesture for "1st D" is encouragement but let's not lose sight of the fact that 117th overall shouldn't be rewarded too highly It's encourgement for all of us to get better. I'd much rather go to a match with a bunch of top shooters and win nothing but know that my 50% score is 50% of the best than I would win 1st place and $$$ in a match that had no one better than me in it! Personally, I shoot for the experience and the challenge and not for $$$ - I'd be financially better off if I invested the $s in something fiscally sound but I have much more fun if I invest it in ammo I say give all available prizes and $$$ to the top 3 overall and try to encourage more big dogs to shoot in matches! I'll be at the NorCal GB and I hope lots of GMs are too. Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Meek Posted February 27, 2004 Share Posted February 27, 2004 To all B-C-D shooters, start practicing and quit your whining if you want to get prizes\awardsfor your shooting performance. This is not welfare.... Alan L1305 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
short_round Posted February 27, 2004 Share Posted February 27, 2004 I strenously agree (just watched "A Few Good Men" again) with kdj. If there are other things we can do to encourage these folks to show up, I believe we should do those as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blkbrd Posted February 27, 2004 Share Posted February 27, 2004 As a middle of the road shooter I don't really want or need cash, lets face it why should a 1st place D-B shooter get more than the 4th place A shooter. What I think would be best is gift certificates for Bullets, Brass & Powder, to help improve our shooting, IMHO what we all really need is practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDean Posted February 27, 2004 Share Posted February 27, 2004 Erik, $$$ to the TOP SHOOTERS. Will his include all below GM equally? Sure it will! If a B shooter ends up finishing in the top, then they'll recieve $$ What's not fair? I want to invent my own special category that puts me on a level field with Robbie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted February 27, 2004 Share Posted February 27, 2004 I'm with Tom, if you want to be like Jerry McGuire, and yell, show me the $$, then work your ass off and WIN the $$. everyone has the same opportunity to work hard, improve and win, stop whining and start shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted February 27, 2004 Share Posted February 27, 2004 My proposal, two sets of prizes: 1. Distributed on Merit 2. Distributed via a random drawing. Best of both worlds: Rewarding of merit and the chance to not go home empty handed for the rest. [Rant ON] I'm not a GM, so I would only stand to benefit from prize distribution through Socialism. BUT, go ahead and create a system that fails to reward performance and plan on me and a lot of others picking up our marbles and playing elsewhere. I guess it's not enough that the overwhelming majority GM's in our sport give out the ying-yang trying to share their knowlege and elevate our skills to where we're competitive. To add insult to injury, we need to use prize distribution to spite them for our personal failures. Keep your stinking prizes, plaques, and silly ribbons for "1st B, fat guy." I'm registering as Unclassified in every match I shoot from now on. It's all or nothing. I wish that others would too as a form of protest against this BS classification system. [back to Practicing my Ass Off Mode ON] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted February 27, 2004 Author Share Posted February 27, 2004 I merged LIBERTY's topic (which itself was spun-off from the GBC match announcement) into this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blkbrd Posted February 27, 2004 Share Posted February 27, 2004 This is just how I figured it would end up. We are a group of amatuers and pros trying to compete on the same playing field. The M and GM shooters that are trying for the big match win don't care about anything but the match win. They have practiced and worked there way up the class system and progressed to a level where they "stand a chance" at the HOA. I have held a Pro card in other sports and know the feeling. Without the class system I feel the sport would die off. How many times have you heard someone say "I'm competing against myself". This is bull, we compete to compete against others, otherwise its called practice. But guess what guys, if it was not for the D-C-B and A class shooters paying the bills at the matches and clubs there would be no matches or any place to hold them. The shooters that pay the bills should be recognised with trophies, plaques and ribbons, this will encourage newer shooters to stay competing, practice train and move up. I am working at improving, some say I am doing well. I am still along way from taking a match win away from someone like Travis, Eric, Phil ext....However.. This is an expensive sport no matter how you look at it. I have won a few plaques and trophies and these tokens have allowed me to show my wife, boss and friends the results of spending thousands of dollers on equipment and ammo. Its amazing that a $5 plaque will convince someone that the $2000 dollar gun you just bought and the time at the range away from home is worth it but it does. Ok if you are single and living the life of a hobbit you may think I am full of it but IMHO this is how all amateur sports work. When you get to the level of GM or even M you are getting out of the Amateur realm and starting to think and act like a Pro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdj Posted February 27, 2004 Share Posted February 27, 2004 When you get to the level of GM or even M you are getting out of the Amateur realm and starting to think and act like a Pro. Don't you need to think and act like a pro from the beginning if you ever hope to get to the point of winning, or even to M class? 1st D matters, as an indication that you've improved. Personally, I always look at the overall list first even in matches where I do have to start from the bottom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blkbrd Posted February 27, 2004 Share Posted February 27, 2004 I agree, but at this point I am not going to fret about not winning HOA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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