Best course of action when encountering illegal stage?

[sslav]

Accepting everything that was stated with regards to compliance with rules, sometimes things do slip through. If the problem got noticed before shooting started and there is a quick fix - great. If the problem is noticed after shooting started and there is a quick fix and it still presents exactly the same shooting challenge to all the shooters - great. Otherwise, as long as it is safe and presents an equitable shooting challenge, just shoot it, score it and move on. As a shooter, I do not want a match reduced by 15%-20% - whether or not I shot the stage already. As a designer/builder having my effort wasted is demotivating.

[LPatterson]

I got very vocal about it with the Match Director but he had a different interruption of the rules so I shot it and left the RO duties to someone else.

[CHA-LEE]

I find it hard to understand why the use of illegal stages seems to always crop up. We have rules and we need to follow them. Most of the time when a stage is illegal it poses a disservice to the shooters and lessons the experience for everyone, such as forcing people to shoot more than 8 rounds in a single shooting position. When you do that all you do is alienate the limited capacity divisions which does nothing but piss them off. Happy shooters come back, pissed shooters don't. Following the rules ensures that the game is fair for all divisions and shooters. As a match director why wouldn't you want to follow the rules to ensure that your match experience goes smoother?

[Fireant]

I once saw a stage that the WSB said that the paper targets were Virginia count and the steel was comstock

[JThompson]

so what was the problem?

JT

Edited June 22, 2010 by JThompson

[Fireant]

so what was the problem?

JT

It was a USPSA match, not one of those other matches.

[pries81]

Best course of action...

Lead by example. Start designing and submitting stages for your local match. Be at the range when the gate opens to help and make sure that the stage gets built correctly. Be there to tear it down, put away the props and see to it that the range is in better shape than when you got there. (so that you can learn of any hiccups in the design that might make things go more smoothly)

The rule book applies to all matches...no matter the level. Section 1 of the rule book has some specific Level I exemptions, but they are not as free wheeling as many like to believe.

That said, experienced shooters can often find some things that might be off. If you can get the Range Master to address them before the shooting starts...all the better. If not...well, some things might not be worth arbitrating to throw a stage out over.

+1 Yes Please!

[shred]

Ive noticed that new stage designers often just plain don't know all the rules around stage design. A quiet word with them and offer of a fix beforehand can work wonders. Then you get the types that know and just don't care... Not much to be done there unless you want to do it yourself.

[gino_aki]

I guess that's what match directors and producers get paid the big bucks for.

Where do I go to sign up for these big bucks? Like it says in the Alice's Restaurant Massacree, "I didn't get nuthin', I had to PAY fifty dollars and pick up the garbage."

[SA Friday]

Well, I will say this to kinda throw a wrench into some of the suggestions. I know of an MD who ran (and pretty sure is still running matches) at least one illegal stage and usually more at every one of his USPSA matches, did it knowingly and didn't care, refused to listen to anyone about it, didn't allow anyone to do stages or change the illegal stages to help out. If you pissed him off bad enough, he would tell you not to come back. So, your options are real easy in this situation, shut up and shoot or don't go out in the first place. I will give him one thing. He was consistant in his ways. You knew what to expect. Worst case scenario for this question does exist. And the only thing to do then is accept it as it is and shoot or not go out in the first place.

Speaking as an MD, I prefer to be told about issues. I also like to received stage designs once and a while too. Why is it so many don't design stages at all?

[JThompson]

Well, I will say this to kinda throw a wrench into some of the suggestions. I know of an MD who ran (and pretty sure is still running matches) at least one illegal stage and usually more at every one of his USPSA matches, did it knowingly and didn't care, refused to listen to anyone about it, didn't allow anyone to do stages or change the illegal stages to help out. If you pissed him off bad enough, he would tell you not to come back. So, your options are real easy in this situation, shut up and shoot or don't go out in the first place. I will give him one thing. He was consistant in his ways. You knew what to expect. Worst case scenario for this question does exist. And the only thing to do then is accept it as it is and shoot or not go out in the first place.

Speaking as an MD, I prefer to be told about issues. I also like to received stage designs once and a while too. Why is it so many don't design stages at all?

If he runs an affiliated club, that is easy to fix, either that, or they pull his affiliation. From the sound of the guy that wouldn't bother him much either. If you are not going to adhere to the rules then don't call it a USPSA match.

JT

[JFlowers]

I think we have two different issues here.

One is the occasional illegal stage that shows up. We all seem to understand that pulling or moving a target, changing a description, etc. make it easy to deal with those. But we also understand that beating on the guy who came out and setup the stage is not a solution. Sometimes I see these stages when someone is just trying to get away from a "same thing every month" situation. In this case, the solution is to fix it if possible if not shoot it.

The other is clubs that consistently put up illegal stages and seem to not care. There one can only vote with one's feet.

[JThompson]

The other is clubs that consistently put up illegal stages and seem to not care. There one can only vote with one's feet.

That and a couple well placed emails to Sedro and Co...

Like I said, you don't want to play by our rules, take the sign down.

JT

Edited July 18, 2010 by JThompson

[Fireant]

The other is clubs that consistently put up illegal stages and seem to not care. There one can only vote with one's feet.

That and a couple well placed emails to Sedro and Co...

Like I said, you don't want to play by our rules, take the sign down.

JT

Amen there Brother!!!!!

[joecichlid]

I'll also point out that new stage designers need to be mentored -- and that mentoring often needs to be gentle to keep from turning them off. Safety issues must be fixed, issues of legality, best practices, may be fixed -- but if there's a bunch, maybe not all at once. Fortunately this is a self-correcting problem, as motivated stage designers get better as they put up more stages....

I could not agree with you more on this one. Mentoring is one of the best things that can be done to help out a new shooter who wants to set up a stage. Use the rules and train them how to set up a legal stage from the beginning and you likely won't have many issues down the road.

As an MD, I would ask the RO's and more experienced shooters on the first squad to shoot the stage to point out any issues before they start shooting.

What he said!!! As the person setting up you have one set of eyes and skills to look over a stage. Get others involved before the first round is fired and you will be shocked at all the different ways people will find to game your perfect stage. LOL

Asone of the few that shows to setup, it doesn't take any longer to setup a legal stage than it does anu illegal one.... setup a legal one, "problem solved."

I'm not meaning to be an ass, but if you are shooting USPSA then you need to have legal stages.

JT

Aman brother!! Sometimes the only difference between an illegal stage and a legal stage is to move a target or two down range a bit so that they can be seen from more than one view. While a shooter CAN shoot more rounds from one spot they are not REQUIRED to. Give the shooter options and keep an open mind, be willing to admit ones mistakes and learn from them. Go on to the next set up and take what you have learned and make your stages and yourself better. This last week I had a brand new shooter, only his third USPSA match, want to set up a stage so I helped guide him through it and when it came time for me to OK it we did a little tweeking and I explained to him what I was doing and why I was doing it and you could see the lightbulb go on overhead. The more people we MD's have like this the better and easier our job can be.

At a recent club match, we had four quite large field courses set up. At the very beginning of the match, the squad leaders from stage 2 came to me, and, smiling, said there was a problem with the stage- it wasn't legal because an element in the WSB called for firing from a specific pair of points at the start of the stage.

There were three experienced match directors in that squad. They asked my permission to fix it with a simple words-and-fault lines fix that actually made the stage more fun, and did so before the first shot was fired.

The stage had been done by my best stage director (we use a one-guy/one-stage regime) and the error simply got past me due to a lack of diligence on my part.

The fix was done, the stage director actually liked it better fixed, everybody kept smiling and having fun, and all was well.

That's the ideal outcome.

You just have to love when things like that happen. Everyone working together to make the stage and match better instead of just having them mouth off about things and not DO anything to make the situation better.

I guess that's what match directors and producers get paid the big bucks for.

Yeah, they bumped my pay from three zeros to four!

Joe W.

[Field]

Now, about those other times when I've been stormed by angry competitors insisting "illegal!" as if their entire weekend had been laid waste to by pillaging barbarians...

I guess that's what match directors and producers get paid the big bucks for.

yeah man any match is better than setting targets up yourself out in the sticks to shoot at

[JThompson]

Now, about those other times when I've been stormed by angry competitors insisting "illegal!" as if their entire weekend had been laid waste to by pillaging barbarians...

I guess that's what match directors and producers get paid the big bucks for.

yeah man any match is better than setting targets up yourself out in the sticks to shoot at

I have no problem with that, just don't run it under the USPSA banner if it's not legal. Every now and then something gets missed and that will happen... what I'm talking about it people that either don't know the rules, or disregard them. The first is easy to fix through education, the second, no so much. If they want to run outlaw matches, that's cool with me.

JT

[Seth]

I had one this past weekend. 15 full sized poppers from a single box set up like bowling pin with 5 yards between them. I HAD two boxes on the ground, but forgot to put it in the WSB that you had to move between the boxes.

I had more comments about how much FUN that stage was than any of the others. It turned into a drag race and everyone loved it.

So... I made a mistake, rolled with it and everyone still had fun.

[joecichlid]

So... I made a mistake, rolled with it and everyone still had fun.

Live and learn, that is all you can do. Right? Sounds like a heck of a fun outlaw stage.

Joe W.

[Cherryriver]

After watching this one for a while, there's one point that keeps coming back to me- a lot of the, shall we say, stress of this situation comes in large part from the word "illegal". It's perfectly accurate but still brings a load of unhappy connotation. I'd bet, speaking as an MD who's heard the dreaded, "this stage is ILLEGAL!" on Sunday mornings, that just finding another word might mitigate a lot of the tension that results.

"Improper" or something like that would cause less of a stir.

In the end, as has been revealed over the course of this thread, it comes down to presentation of the issue. Forward-directed discussion (Hey, can we look at this? I think you might want to adjust something here...) instead of the confrontational pejoratives will be a whole lot better for everyone.

I'll personalize it a bit for illustration. My business partner is all about competition. She's fiercely competitive and will drive a million miles to challenge and be challenged. She gets sponsorship- it's that serious. Putting up matches- designing stages, assembling help, making props, doing WSBs, even officiating- is something that she appreciates but doesn't take so much to heart.

I'm the opposite- I'm all about staging matches. I like the complexity and meeting the challenges of putting together the whole package and having it process out smoothly and accurately.

If I don't shoot the match I just put up, it's not such a big deal; not if running the thing engages me to where I can't get time to gun up and take a buzzer.

We were together in a gun shop the other day and the topic of a local range lawyer (as the term goes) we both have had some snaggy moments with came up.

The differing perspectives were black versus white. She thought I'd erred in handling the lad by dealing with the "illegal" accusations (some legit, some marginal, a couple utterly irrelevant) by simply nodding and moving along with either corrections or ignoring as appropriate. She thought I should have challenged the guy to do a stage and get the better understanding of the difficulty of coloring perfectly inside the line while dealing with local conditions and resource availability.

I tended to disagree in that time is short, and irritating volunteers with strong accusatory language is a bigger problem. We would all like to have sixteen bodies for setup day every time, but guys who leave thinking they were unappreciated or even disrespected are a bigger loss than the error of ten rounds at a position in one stage in one match.

Yes, my co-workers' feelings and attitude are more important to me than minor transgressions.

Now, hold up there, as pointed out above I work to execute fixes as quickly as anyone and want to do things right. My day-job background contains a strong do-it-right component. But I do consider a balance of interests and a longer view.

Partner and I rarely agree anyway, so that disagreement faded away.

In the end, it's still supposed to be entertainment, at least at the club level, and getting everyone to be involved and having fun.

Somewhere in all of that is a balance.

[Gary Stevens]

I'm all for rules but isn't it also the case that, try as they might, some local clubs just don't have the resources to build very complicated stages? They have to work with the props they have and do the best they can. Sometimes that means they have to designate an arbitrary shooting position or specify that "all walls extend to the ground" or some other such tricks. It's that or dumb down the stages.

With all the exemptions in the rulebook for Level 1 matches, why would they still be illegal?

[webbo]

I'm all for constructive critisicm when it comes to illegal stages. But, if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all, suck it up and shoot the stage. I know of at least two incidents regarding "illegal" stages and someone being an ass to the rm about it in front of new shooters, that have completely turned off those new shooters. In fact, 2 years later I still hear about one such situation every time I try to get one of the afformentioned new shooters out to a match.

[wide45]

I'm gonna cheat. If they don't have to follow the rules, neither do I.

[HeinrichDerLowe]

One of our local clubs relies upon the Level 1 exemption for everything. Nobody makes a big stink about it unless the stage is unsafe -- the "big solution" is often for the first squad on the stage to fix the problem themselves.

I personally don't get worked up about it and don't mind shooting an illegal stage if it's both safe and fun. I draw the line when someone advocates stretching the rules in one direction to penalize competitors while stretching them in the other to overlook bad stages.

Edited June 11, 2013 by HeinrichDerLowe

[Ken_Bird]

.02 cents worth !

I do not shoot IDPA, but for my HO each shooting sport in order to make it safe for all those who attend have there own set of rules. Unless they add a rule, which I doubt that states you do not have to follow the rules all the time. Then why have rules?