coal driving me crazy

[sigsauerfan]

hi  all.  i'm loading on a  XL650  using  dillon  dies  except the  crimp  die  which is  a  lee.  i'm presently  loading  zero 147JHP  peas  over  mixed  headstamps.  my  problem is that ,  whatever  i  tried,  the loaded  rounds  coal   is  driving me  crazy  ;  it's  the  first  time  in years  of  reloading on this  machine  that  my  coal  variation  is  that much important. i've  settled  the  seater  to 1.130  but  i  get  1.125 to 1.135  even 1.137  on some  units. i'm loading 40  as  well   with zeros  180 JHP  i  never  walked  into such variations  even with mixed  headstamps.  i  cleaned  the  crimp  die,reinstalled  it  as  well  as  the  decaping-resizing die  with no  improvement in consistency   .  steam is  now  exiting my  nostrils  LOL.  i  know  i  will get the  answer  that  mixed  headstamps  may result in this  kind  of  inconsistent  coal but   i'm mixing brass  since years and i  never   got  more than 0.001 to 0.003  coal  variation .   now  i  witness 0.008  to 0.010  coal variation which is  too much  for  me.

however, it's  the  first  time  i  load zero JHP 147 in 9mm.  i'm more used  to  fmj.  could  it  be  the   culprit?...i'm asking  this question   while    to  me  it  doesn't  make  sens.

thoughts  ?

[mikeinctown]

Are you using lube on the brass? I would get as much as .007 on coated lead but lubing with one shot got me around .003 which is more than good enough. When you are setting the seating die are you placing a normal case in station 1 so that there is even pressure on the shellplate? Are some handle pulls a bit harder than others?

[Richie]

I had the same issue on initial setup, then read on here to make sure there is brass loaded in every station when setting the seating depth and crimp.  Hope this helps.

[ChuckS]

Try flipping over the seat die insert...

[Sarge]

Full plate since partial plate rounds will be shorter.

  Lube cases.

  Don't keep stopping to measure.   Pull the handle the same every time.

 And above all mixed headstamp will cause this. Sort out a hundred of same headstamp, lube them, start loading, discard the first few, then pull the handle 50 times without stopping, measure those and see if they are closer to the same.

[chevrofreak]

48 minutes ago, ChuckS said:

Try flipping over the seat die insert...

This.  

[Steve RA]

Differing case wall thickness, due to mixed brass, requires varying amounts of pressure to seat bullets to the same depth.  As suggested above, try loading with same brand brass and see if that alleviates your problem.  Also, a difference in the diameter of the bullet can have the same result as differing case wall thickness.  Check a reasonable # of the bullets you are trying to see if they are basically the same.

[glassblower]

What Steve said and adding this...... check that those that show the most variation have the same bullet profile (not just the bullet diameter but the shape of the nose) as those with the best OAL. I know Zero makes quality stuff but variations can creep in with some batches. I experienced profile variations with another manufacturer that caused substantial variations in OAL. It drove me bonkers. Also, when I added a Mr Bulletfeeder to my rig, OAL variations got even less, likely because it sets the bullet in the same place every time, i.e. straight up. 

[adamge]

One of the keys to reloading is coming to peace with 'good enough.'  Do 10, measure and average, and call the average your COAL.  Shoot thousands of them and don't think too much about this.

[MemphisMechanic]

My ammo's OAL varied between 1.108 and 1.117 in the current batch which I loaded today.

 

Loaded on a 650:

 

125 BBI

3.80 gr Prima V

1.110"-1.115"

CCI Magnum 

 

Walther Q5 Match:

Avg of 10: 1097 fps

Es 22

Sd 6

Pf 137.1

 

M&P 4.25"

Avg of 8: 1048 FPS

Es 11

Sd 4

Pf 131.0

 

See how tight the extreme spread and standard deviation numbers are? I'll do some accuracy testing with it and if it groups well, I won't worry about the OAL variation at all.

 

Edited September 10, 2017 by MemphisMechanic

[IDescribe]

I don't use Dillon dies, but I am pretty sure Dillon has a reversible anvil, where one side is flat/solid, and the other side is hollow/concave.  The flat side presses down against the nose of the bullet, and the hollow side contacts below the nose of the bullet on the ogive.  Since most variation in the length of the actual bullet (just the projectile itself) occurs at the nose and OAL is measured to the nose, the flat side of the anvil (that seats from the nose) will produce the most consistent OAL, and the hollow side the least consistent.  That's something for you to check.  

IF it turns out that you are seating with the hollow side of the anvil, keep it that way.  The hollow side, while having less consistent OAL, will create a more consistent jump distance from the bullet shoulder to the rifling, AND a more consistent seating depth.  Those two things have real ballistic effects.  OAL, the distance from the headstamp to the nose, does not.  

 

If you are already seating with the flat side of the anvil, I would recommend you pull the cartridges after the seating die and measure them before running them through the crimp die to see if the crimp die is moving the bullet.  If it's not, I would recommend readjusting your seating die.  Not just the anvil, the whole die -- back it out a little and readjust the anvil to where you want it.  I've seen that be a problem.  I couldn't figure out WHY it was a problem,  but backing the seating die out a little fixed it.

[uewpew]

I wouldn't worry about +/-.005 variation in your OAL.  As long as they all pass the plunk test, feed,  group, & make PF they are probably fine.  

[lgh]

You already did the clean the-press-thing so that is done. Do what IDescribe suggests with the seating stem. He describes it quite well and also points out that the variation you see may not matter at all as long as the round feeds.  Also, measure your bullets and cases and see how much variation is in them. I found  variation in COAL that could be traced to variation in the bullets and/or cases.  (You might as well weigh the bullets, too.) 

[sigsauerfan]

12 hours ago, ChuckS said:

Try flipping over the seat die insert...

ya.....good  idea.haven't tried   this  before..

 

 

Quote

 

Full plate since partial plate rounds will be shorter.

  Lube cases.

  Don't keep stopping to measure.   Pull the handle the same every time.

 And above all mixed headstamp will cause this. Sort out a hundred of same headstamp, lube them, start loading, discard the first few, then pull the handle 50 times without stopping, measure those and see if they are closer to the same.4

 

 

all of  this  Sarge.

 

i'm using the  same  ''''recipe''''   since  years  and  i've  never  been plagued  with something like this  even with mixed  headstamps  ;   i  can't explain.

 

 of  course i'm  spraying   one  shot  on my  cases   it  makes  the  machine  action so  silky smooth,i  would  never load  without it.  ,  and  yes  of course  the shell plate is  always  full when i  set  my  seater  die .

 

thanks  all for  the  replies. as  usual,  BRIAN ENOS crowd  responded   with very helpfull  insights  and  suggestions. 

 

i tested  the  '''ill'''  rounds  yesterday  at the  range  and  while  the accuracy  isn't that bad, sure  enough i  got some  flyers   that  i  wouldn't    normally  get    with    a  much consistent   COAL.  i'm gonna  flip the  seater insert  to  see how  it  goes  today  and  will get  back  with  an update.  if  it  work  out good  i  ow  you  all  a  

Edited September 10, 2017 by sigsauerfan

[sigsauerfan]

10 hours ago, glassblower said:

What Steve said and adding this...... check that those that show the most variation have the same bullet profile (not just the bullet diameter but the shape of the nose) as those with the best OAL. I know Zero makes quality stuff but variations can creep in with some batches. I experienced profile variations with another manufacturer that caused substantial variations in OAL. It drove me bonkers. Also, when I added a Mr Bulletfeeder to my rig, OAL variations got even less, likely because it sets the bullet in the same place every time, i.e. straight up. 

yes,i   was  suspecting this  phenom with the JHP  since  the '''petals''''  that makes  HP's  opening on impact  may   induce false  readings-measurements  ;   so  after spinning  many  rounds    between the  caliper's  jaws  to  see  how it affect  the  readings......came  to  the  conclusion  it  doesn't  affect  more  than  a  + -  0.001  even less than that,and  as  i  said, i'm loading  zero's  180 JHP  in 40  since  at least  8  years  and  never  ever  got this  problem.....i'm starting to  believes  a  witch made its  way in my  house  and  she   settled  home  in my  man cave  LOL

 

normally  with  a  well settled up machine  and  all the  cases lubed  with ''one  shot'''  i  shouldn't  get more  than 0.002   difference  in COAL  even with mixed  headstamps....at least, that's  my  experience  with my XL650  .

Edited September 10, 2017 by sigsauerfan

[sigsauerfan]

4 hours ago, IDescribe said:

I don't use Dillon dies, but I am pretty sure Dillon has a reversible anvil, where one side is flat/solid, and the other side is hollow/concave.  The flat side presses down against the nose of the bullet, and the hollow side contacts below the nose of the bullet on the ogive.  Since most variation in the length of the actual bullet (just the projectile itself) occurs at the nose and OAL is measured to the nose, the flat side of the anvil (that seats from the nose) will produce the most consistent OAL, and the hollow side the least consistent.  That's something for you to check.  

IF it turns out that you are seating with the hollow side of the anvil, keep it that way.  The hollow side, while having less consistent OAL, will create a more consistent jump distance from the bullet shoulder to the rifling, AND a more consistent seating depth.  Those two things have real ballistic effects.  OAL, the distance from the headstamp to the nose, does not.  

 

If you are already seating with the flat side of the anvil, I would recommend you pull the cartridges after the seating die and measure them before running them through the crimp die to see if the crimp die is moving the bullet.  If it's not, I would recommend readjusting your seating die.  Not just the anvil, the whole die -- back it out a little and readjust the anvil to where you want it.  I've seen that be a problem.  I couldn't figure out WHY it was a problem,  but backing the seating die out a little fixed it.

yes,this  theory  is  quite  possible . hollow  points  has  a  much slimmer  profile  than FMJ's  and i thought  it  might  be  that the  seater  insert  is  maybe  not  well  suited  to  HP's. i'm gonna  try  to   flip  the  seating insert  upside-down to  see if  it provides more  consistency....i  will  also try  a  direct  measurement right after  the  seating die,then  immediately  after  the  crimping  die  to  see if  the  crimper  could  be  my  problem.

 

thanks  for  this  reply, very insightfull.

Edited September 10, 2017 by sigsauerfan

[sigsauerfan]

please  mods,i  don't  know  why my thread is  duplicated...could  you  merge  the  answers  i  got here  with  the   twin  where i  got 12  replies?  thanks.

[GrumpyOne]

16 minutes ago, sigsauerfan said:

please  mods,i  don't  know  why my thread is  duplicated...could  you  merge  the  answers  i  got here  with  the   twin  where i  got 12  replies?  thanks.

Merged.

[sigsauerfan]

thanks  grumpy.....

[Wheeljack]

I'm using a Lee set up.  I have used Lee Resizing Lubricant, diluted 1:10 with alcohol to lube cases before I resize and remove the primers.  The Lee product sound like Hornady Unique Case lube.  I have the same COAL "problem".   What are your thoughts on spraying the BULLETS with the diluted lubricant and letting them dry and then seat them???     Hurricane Irma will be here tomorrow, so I don't know if I'll be on line for a while.

Edited September 10, 2017 by Wheeljack
add news

[jcc7x7]

Check that the bolts holding the press to the bench have not loosened up.

Seems like everything else has been mentioned?!?!?!?

[Wheeljack]

Jcc7x7, it does seem that way.     Other things that bother:  I measure the COAL for 10 rounds.   Write down the measure.  Measure the same 10 again & write down the answers.  Do this for a 3rd time.  For me, the measures differ in almost the bullets.  Seat 10 rounds, measure, seat them again and see if the COAL changes.  After all this, I realized you have to do the best you can, but it doesn't mean it's going to turn out exactly the way you want.   Just work toward a livable average spread.  I'd say a .005 difference is fine.

[jhgtyre]

On 9/10/2017 at 7:14 AM, sigsauerfan said:

ya.....good  idea.haven't tried   this  before..

 

 

 

all of  this  Sarge.

 

i'm using the  same  ''''recipe''''   since  years  and  i've  never  been plagued  with something like this  even with mixed  headstamps  ;   i  can't explain.

 

 of  course i'm  spraying   one  shot  on my  cases   it  makes  the  machine  action so  silky smooth,i  would  never load  without it.  ,  and  yes  of course  the shell plate is  always  full when i  set  my  seater  die .

 

thanks  all for  the  replies. as  usual,  BRIAN ENOS crowd  responded   with very helpfull  insights  and  suggestions. 

 

i tested  the  '''ill'''  rounds  yesterday  at the  range  and  while  the accuracy  isn't that bad, sure  enough i  got some  flyers   that  i  wouldn't    normally  get    with    a  much consistent   COAL.  i'm gonna  flip the  seater insert  to  see how  it  goes  today  and  will get  back  with  an update.  if  it  work  out good  i  ow  you  all  a  

I didn't see any mention of measuring your projectiles, although I did read through the responses pretty fast so I may have missed it.  Have you measured the projectiles by themselves to see what sort of variance in length they have?

[sigsauerfan]

5 hours ago, jhgtyre said:

I didn't see any mention of measuring your projectiles, although I did read through the responses pretty fast so I may have missed it.  Have you measured the projectiles by themselves to see what sort of variance in length they have?

projectile lenght  doesn't matter . the  die  push it  down the  case  at the  same deepness  whatever  the  pea's  lenght.if  the projectile  has  lets  say  3thous  more than its  bro,the  die  will push it  further  down the  case  and the coal should  be  the  same.

 

ok. a  little update  here. i  turned  the  dillon seating die  INSERT upside  down, but it  did  nothing to  fix  my  random coal issue.  i  checked  each round  after seating,and  it  dance  all the  f******  time  round  after round.....honestly, i'm puzzled.i  never  ever  experienced more than 0.003  difference  in coal,and  now  i  get 0.010  spread ;  one  can be  1.132     and the  next  can jump to  1.141  OR  worst  1.123  ;that is  too much i'm   shooting  matches  and the  deviation happening   with such spread  in COAL    at 20 yards  means  a  missed plate .on top of that  fact, i'm loading  close  to  max load  with VV340  and  such a  difference  in coal means  more  internal pressure  in the  case .

 

the  bad  part for  me  is  i  know  that  i  have  a bit  of  a temper  when things  don't  roll my  way, and  i'm now  looking at  my  sog axe  and i'm picturing  me  hammering the  bustin press  with it LOL

 

i'm now  wondering  if  the  nose  of  the JHP  is  hooking somewhere  on its  way in the  die. 

Edited September 12, 2017 by sigsauerfan

[sigsauerfan]

ok. i  found  the  gremlin.  i  loaded  some  zero 147 FMJ-RN  tonight  and  my coal  is  back within 0.003 spread  i'm setting my  seater  at 1.130  and i  may get  a  1.133  here and  there,  90 %  of  the loaded rounds  at  exactly 1.130  after crimping  !!

 

my theory is  now  that for  some  reason the  zero's  147 JHP  nose  and  profile  doesn't  goes  well with the dillon seater .  the petals  which  open on impact  probably hooks  on the seater  insert's  edge  on its  way in  . the  40 S&W  180  doesn't  do  that because  the  profile  and    noze  of  the  bullet  is  larger  and  the  petals  of  the  hollow point  aren't  as  sharp  as  its  9mm 147   sister .on top of  that  the  147's base  has   a  '''lip'''  that the  40's  180  don't  have.  i'm now  staying away  of  the  zeros  JHP  for  my  nines.

 

thanks  to  all my  brian enos  bros,your  insights  and  suggestions  kept  me alert  and  motivated  at  finding  the  gremlin  i  was  afflicted  by.