We NEED a GOOD short range RIFLE TARGET...

[ericm]

I call upon the collective power of the BE hive:

We need a good frangible/reactive target for rifle (.223 or better) to be used at distances under 50 yards where steel cannot be used.

What has been used:

Clay birds: cheap, easy to use, reasonably frangible, easy to clean up.

Big drawback: .223 can "burn" a small .22 hole through them with no other effect, and that hole can be hard to see under time and 1X. We just used black clay birds at the CRCPS 3 Gun match, and if you thought it was hard to see a hole in a fluoresecent orange bird, try seeing one in a "blackbird" at 15 - 20 yards.

Balloons: not cheap sometimes, not as easy to use (must inflate them), easy to clean up

Drawbacks: size not uniform, wind moves them (although colored balloons in a cardboard hole backer works pretty well: when balloon disappears, it's a hit), time consuming to reset with inflation, breakage, etc.

Do-All type plastic targets (otherwise know at the HPSC Carbine match as "those #@%^&$* orange balls"): not cheap, can be used mutiple times, EFFECT APPEARS TO BE AMMO DEPENDENT.

Drawbacks: FMJ .223 appears to have little effect when balls are set on any surface that "cups" the ball (it was quickly discovered at the HPSC that Blitzkings, V-Max's, TAP, etc. would indeed "motivate" these targets, but the balls started getting chewed up with that kind of ammo), more shooting/experimenting is required.

I talked to CASMAN (of CarbonArms) after the CRCPS match about possible use of common bathroom-like ceramic tiles, and he is going to test some and weigh in here (hint, hint).

So....we need a good frangible/reactive target of about 4" size or so, that when hit is immediately apparent (whole target falls or disintegrates - no "burn though" or "wiggle") for any type of ammo

legal for the match, relatively cheap and easy to display, reset, and clean up.

What say you all???

ericm

Edited July 7, 2011 by ericm

[Chuck Anderson]

Have you tried some of the more exotic sporting clay targets? I'm thinking the rabbit or the flash target. The Rabbit is thicker and harder. Seems like it would be more likely to break on impact. The flash target has a little pouch of dust. Haven't tried them yet myself.

[Joe4d]

steel pepper poppers. with pieces of stall mats on them., Horse stall mats are about 3/4" black rubber, $30 will get you a 6 foot 2 footish piece, no bullet splatter, no pass through, easy to calibrate, target falls over when hit,

[RiggerJJ]

try hanging clay birds, when hit they seem to fall apart lots better than when supporting them on sticks, or screws on a backboard...Uniquetec has a clay hanger, or you can just use a piece of tape...

jj

[Graham Smith]

We need a good frangible/reactive target for rifle (.223 or better) to be used at distances under 50 yards where steel cannot be used.

Why can't you use steel targets?

[Charles Bond]

We need a good frangible/reactive target for rifle (.223 or better) to be used at distances under 50 yards where steel cannot be used.

Why can't you use steel targets?

Danger to shooter and steel which would hence be useless. Poker chips work fine provided your dollar store has them. For the more nature sensitive, store brand sugar cookies work.

[ericm]

....not to be mean, but all above posts FAIL to address the question / quest:

Steel is out, clay birds (hung or not, rabbits too) are out, poker chips and cookies are too small.

We need a target that is not capricious about where or with what ammo hits it, and about the size of a clay bird (+/- 4-6").

ericm

[ericm]

BTW....this question / quest is not for me in particular, but to ADVANCE our current state of 3 Gun.

ericm

Edited July 8, 2011 by ericm

[Joe4d]

why is steel out ? whats wrong with AR500 popper or falling plate with the above mentioned stall mat facing ?

[George]

The frangible steel targets we use at the BARC are exactly what you are describing except they are steel.

We have custom made AR-400 steel clay backer target heads. The heads clamp onto a vertical 2x4 (we already have 2x4 stands) and the clay just hangs on them. You get a fantastic target reaction every time, any ammo/caliber. The bullet splatters on the small steel plate and makes the clay explode magnificently. Hits in the 2x4 don't do anything and just pass right through without dropping the clays 99.5% of the time. No part of the hanger clamp hardware on the back is visible around the circular target face so any hit whatsoever on the metal smashes the clay like iit was hit with a hammer.

We have had negligible re-shoots in several years of use from these targets compared to other specialty target systems we have employed.

The steel backer plate is 1/2" thick and just undersize of the inside of a standard clay. The target face is angled up at about 5-6 degrees so splatter is thrown upwards and not right back at shooters. The clays hang on this upward angle very well without need for rubber bands or clips.

We have safely and successfully used these at just about 40 yards and they held up reasonably well with no splatter up-range. The hi velocity .223 fmj took a herder toll on the steel itself at this distance than any other ammo and longevity of the steel backer heads was reduced at this distance compared to just a dozen yards or more downrange.

We get the steel clay backers made in bulk cheap and toss them after they get too beat up.

Here is a photo of how one reacts when hit.

[ericm]

Now we're gettin' some......ideas and information!

A steel clay bird backer as described above seems to give a great target reaction.

What is the closest distance you have used these for rifle? (and what safety rules are in play for distance for rifle steel: we've always used 50 yards +/-)

For that matter, how close has anyone used stall-mat faced steel targets (either falling plates or poppers) with rifle? For big matches?

What is the steel longevity? (I see short life span alluded to for the steel clay backers in the post above)

Remember we are looking for a reasonable cost type target here, as well as reliable hit effect.

ericm

[George]

You would think .308 and other large caliber rounds would impact the steel detrimentally at closer ranges, but not so. All the big calibers do is kick the stands around and break the 2x4 after it has had some hits through the wood below the target head.

The Hi V .223 loads are what does the damage to the steel at closer ranges as the kinetic energy vaporizes away a little of the plate at 60 and under. .223 lightly pock marks this stuff at 75-100 yards, puts a noticeable pocket in it at 50-75 and craters quite a bit at under 50 yards.

I have used these myself many times in testing at as little as 30 yards and had no splatter come back to me due to the plates upward angle. They won't take more than 30-40 hits at this close before they are pretty chewed up. I would stay at 40+ yards for general match usage though.

I am using hinged 2x4's at this years BARC match to allow the targets to fall backwards to help the 2x4's themselves stand the hit oomph of major caliber rifle better. We never had target failure re-shoots because the clay was visibly broken, but changing 2x4 stakes when major rifle took the heads off was slowing shooter turn down.

Hope this helps

[J-Ho]

Cans of Coors Light. It's not like you are wasting real beer....

[Dan Sierpina]

I seem to recall someone using water filled soda bottles. You'll just need to have the caps for them.

[TRUBL]

Kingsford!!! They work great.....and a great target for out to 50yds, if you want to go precision, otherwise, 25yds is good too....you'd be suprised at how many people can miss them as they don;t know where their 25yd zero is. You can hang them from a string, but I've used bailing wire, a little more stable in the wind, and you can form a pocket for the briket to sit in. Make extra wire's cause some one will shoot them off at some point.

Tim

[barrysuperhawk]

Not really on topic, but I personally use those itty-bity 1/4 scale ipsc cardboard targets, for close range rifle shots. If I want to increase difficulty, paint a couple of green and black spots on them and hide them in the tall grass or give them a "plate carrier" [paint the A+C torso zone hardcover black].

Edited July 16, 2011 by barrysuperhawk

[Aglifter]

Mini cans of cheap soda? How much is too much? You can make your own "chalk" sporting clays by filling the back w. colored, powdered chalk, then gluing newsprint to the back of it. What if you put tannerite in them instead of chalk.

[bigbrowndog]

I think lefty miller is trying to save money not spend more, so tannerite or chalk is out. the solid Do All balls work very consistently.

Geoff's idea has merit as well, I thought about doing the same but you still have steel inside 50yds, and if you do why have the clay??? the MGM steel we used at HPSC at 100yds was brand new, unused,..... after the match it was extremely pitted. you can purchase 4" round or square steel for about 8-10$ each but it will probably be done after the match so considering you might need 10 minimum and have 15 in back up thats 150.00 not much considering an entry fee of 75.00-200.00. but you still have steel inside 50yds.

a thin metal disc of about 8-10 gauge works great but the holder needs to be ultra reliable to release it upon being hit, a small magnet might work. the target would be throw away so you would need a lot, but they should be cheap.

trapr

[barrysuperhawk]

Mini cans of cheap soda? How much is too much? You can make your own "chalk" sporting clays by filling the back w. colored, powdered chalk, then gluing newsprint to the back of it. What if you put tannerite in them instead of chalk.

Meh, Tannerite inside a clay pigeon is fun until you hit one and find small bits of the clay raining down upon you, or worse yet catch a larger chunk in the teeth [ask me how I know this..]

If you are brrave though, turn the clays open end up, fill with tannerite, then slip into ziploc sandwich bags and tape the corners to the back and you are ready...

[George]

Geoff's idea has merit as well, I thought about doing the same but you still have steel inside 50yds, and if you do why have the clay??? the MGM steel we used at HPSC at 100yds was brand new, unused,..... after the match it was extremely pitted. you can purchase 4" round or square steel for about 8-10$ each but it will probably be done after the match so considering you might need 10 minimum and have 15 in back up thats 150.00 not much considering an entry fee of 75.00-200.00. but you still have steel inside 50yds.

For minimum distance rifle use we pretty much consider the steel backers expendables. We get them made cheap enuff to do so and only use them with rifle at our yearly rifle championship where we have the budget to turn them into scrap. I have used them at matches at about 40-45 yards distance safely as that is what a few of our bays only allow depth-wise. if you have bays that are wide enuff you can shoot them diagonally from corner to corner to get 8-10 more yards distance on them. The 7 degree upward angle on the backer face is what keeps the splatter from coming right straight back uprange at the shortest distance.

We use the clay because it is what indicates the hit for score. Hanging a clay also is a tad faster than re-painting and the rule we use for scoring even though it's a steel target is "frangible must indicate hit to score". This makes it USPSA legal because the steel was stationary and did not fall in our previous versions. The ones we are using at the 2011 BARC will be hinged and fall over backwards to help keep wear and tear down on the stands and 2x4 uprights, but we are still going to use the clay and the same rule for scoring.

In the end I think the best reason for still using the clay over the steel backer is it makes a very nice and satisfying visual display when hit :-)

[southtexaswoman]

Joe4D.

How well does that stall matting hold up? I like the idea. How hsrd is it to get off and replace?

[sierra77mk]

This might be worth an experiment:

Get a 4 x 4 Fence post, Take a chop saw cut 1/4 to 3/16" "wafers".

I think that shooting end grain wood will fracture. Side grain like a fence picket would likely just make a round hole.

Wood would need to be very dry.

I'll try tomorrow and report.

RESULTS OF TEST

Did not work reliably.

Out of 6 that I tried, 2 split completely, 2 broke off a large corner, 2 just had holes.

The ceramic tiles would definitely break but would leave sharp debris on the range.

A clay tile, like a red clay flowerpot would be something to think about if it broke cleaner than a clay pidgeon but would be much more money.

Edited July 19, 2011 by sierra77mk

[spraynpray]

Candy glass would work: shatters, biodegradable, etc. Time consuming to make, pain to handle in the heat and rain are the cons.

[Aglifter]

Quart milk jugs (you can order never-filled ones online), filled w. colored water? We used some at "Big Bore" shoots in Houston, and they worked well...

[sierra77mk]

Spray painted Graham Crackers?