weapon/ammunition failure

[1chota]

Okay, here goes. I will try to explain myself as best I can. There are different approaches as far as match rules/practices goes as to what to do when a weapon malfunctions. We know what they are and who does what to whom. My thoughts on this are this: this is a sport not tactical training. We keep score, therefore it is a sport.

Participants in this sport; competitors, if you will, spend a lot of money on match fees, travel, meals, lodging, not to mention missing work, to attend these matches. Whether it is a broken extractor, a squib load or any other of a miriad of mechanical uh-ohs; it is not the competitor's doing. I believe the spirit of the game should be to let the shooter shoot. If something breaks, go fix it, or get a back-up of the same type weapon and carry on.

I have heard people say it slows things down too much. I have seen more slow downs at matches due to range equipment problems than letting a shooter re-try.

What say you?

[Dan Sierpina]

It's a competition, not practice. If the shooter can't complete the stage because of equipment, they get the time and penalties. Between stages is the time to repair or seek the match director to get approval for replacement.

[Nik Habicht]

A stage blown due to equipment issues sucks.....

....this creates incentive for solving gear problems once and for all.....

No reshoots. On the bright side, I've always seen squadmates and match staff be extremely helpful in resolving gear problems, or in allowing extra time for repairs, if needed. I know when my 1100 functioned as a bolt action at one 3-gun match, I had offers to borrow guns from my entire squad.....

[mpeltier]

Participants in this sport; competitors, if you will, spend a lot of money on match fees, travel, meals, lodging, not to mention missing work, to attend these matches. Whether it is a broken extractor, a squib load or any other of a miriad of mechanical uh-ohs; it is not the competitor's doing.

I respectfully disagree. If you have a broken extractor, ammo problems etc. it is your doing. If its a problem with equipment or ammo provided by the match than its not your doing and a restart/re-shoot would be in order. Each piece of gear/ammo you bring with you should be tested and or maintained properly, it is my opinion that it is very rare indeed for a problem to be one that could not have been preventd by the shooter with a bit more care. Its all part of the learning curve, and attention to detail.

[1chota]

and the above responses folks are why USPSA can't draw to a match. if we are testing equipment, then we can stay at home and do that. the competitors don't make the guns, they shoot them. this is SUPPOSED to be fun! we are not testing the shooters ability if the weapon goes down, are we?

[steel1212]

and the above responses folks are why USPSA can't draw to a match. if we are testing equipment, then we can stay at home and do that. the competitors don't make the guns, they shoot them. this is SUPPOSED to be fun! we are not testing the shooters ability if the weapon goes down, are we?

We are testing the competitors ability to keep their gear RUNNING. Nascar doesn't let you re-run daytona because you blew an engine. Last time I check major matches fill up to a waiting list.

Edited January 8, 2010 by steel1212

[mpeltier]

and the above responses folks are why USPSA can't draw to a match. if we are testing equipment, then we can stay at home and do that. the competitors don't make the guns, they shoot them. this is SUPPOSED to be fun! we are not testing the shooters ability if the weapon goes down, are we?

I respectfully disagree again.

USPSA or outlaw all have the same take on equipment issues. Litteraly all the big outlaw matches i shoot fill to capacity. If USPSA aint drawing a crowd it is not because of this....

You are right that testing equipment should be done at home, if it is, then it should be GTG when you get to the big match.

I built my AR and my 1911 (and no I am not a gunsmith), I shoot them also, so do many others i know, If it breaks, I know who to blame.

The match is a test of many things, Guns, ammo, physical and mental ability. Just like any competition. If Apollo Ono breaks a skate, will he get to run the race again? If my sons moto cross bike flats a tire, does he get a restart for the whole field? And what about the guy from the old adds for wide world of sports who lost a ski while coming down the ramp of that big old ski jump??? I don't think he got a do-over...

[-JQ-]

and the above responses folks are why USPSA can't draw to a match. if we are testing equipment, then we can stay at home and do that. the competitors don't make the guns, they shoot them. this is SUPPOSED to be fun! we are not testing the shooters ability if the weapon goes down, are we?

We are testing the competitors ability to keep their gear RUNNING. Nascar doesn't let you re-run daytona because you blew an engine. Last time I check major matches fill up to a waiting list.

Steel's right...this is a race (timed) event. Rig breakage (knocking wood here x) sucks but no re-do.

Local/small matches this may or may not be a real issue. One local rifle match has only 5-10 guys...so maybe no sweat.

[-JQ-]

... wide world of sports who lost a ski while coming down the ramp of that big old ski jump??? I don't think he got a do-over...

Not sure he wanted a do over

those were the days...

[mpeltier]

... wide world of sports who lost a ski while coming down the ramp of that big old ski jump??? I don't think he got a do-over...

Not sure he wanted a do over

those were the days...

Yeah, I got winter olympic fever... Can't wait.

[bigbrowndog]

perfect example to follow.....................Do you think UT would like to have a do over because their first string quarterback got injured in the first series of downs?????????

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!, should they?????????????????, NO!!!!! deal with the problem and play on your replacement parts or players should overcome your adversity, if not then you lose today, there is always next time. If you allow it then you have what happened at the FB3G shootoffs lots of redo's because of "gun malfunctions"??????????????????????? or "shooter induced malfunctions"??????????????????

trapr

[mpeltier]

perfect example to follow.....................Do you think UT would like to have a do over because their first string quarterback got injured in the first series of downs?????????

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!, should they?????????????????, NO!!!!! deal with the problem and play on your replacement parts or players should overcome your adversity, if not then you lose today, there is always next time. If you allow it then you have what happened at the FB3G shootoffs lots of redo's because of "gun malfunctions"??????????????????????? or "shooter induced malfunctions"??????????????????

trapr

Exactly.........Para's can't be that bad out of the box........can they?????

[el pres]

I have to disagree as well, it's a game and having your equiptment

working is half the game. At last years SSM3G I blew a case head on the

first shot of the last stage and came in dead last place on that stage.

I used what I thought was once fired brass, my loads were double and then double

checked again, I use only the highest quality components, etc... But thats just racing

and so I have to wait to next year for revenge.

Car racing, bicycle racing, it's all the same. no one stops the race for you. Hell, forget about

equiptment, if your a runner and you get a cramp in your leg they dont let you start all over ?

[J-Ho]

Ive seen small local matches let folks reshoot for no score. I like this idea because, yes it is fun. At a large match, no way.

[mike.45]

Wynn, your guns run just fine, its when I drop them in the mud whilst pre-loading you things can go wrong !!!

I did see a few strange decisions at CMMG a few years ago where a guys AR took a big dump and he got a re-shoot, three shooters later a similar thing happened and no re-shoot was given.

In a small local match where no one minds then fair enough, at big matches - NO WAY !

Thats the beauty of 3 gun - three different guns for things to go completely tits up !

Edited January 8, 2010 by mike.45

[ken hebert]

and the above responses folks are why USPSA can't draw to a match. if we are testing equipment, then we can stay at home and do that. the competitors don't make the guns, they shoot them. this is SUPPOSED to be fun! we are not testing the shooters ability if the weapon goes down, are we?

Another one to disagree. Everyone here is responsible for their own equipment. You run what you brung, you pay your money and you take your chances. The idea of "let him do it until he gets it right" seems to me to be a government-type response of todays day and age...

[abn-rgr]

I think reshoots are a no-go as well. Its part of the competition in my opinion. A guy on my squad with a FN shotgun got a reshoot at last years CMMG. If my Benelli would have went down, Im not so sure I would have been afforded that opportunity. Oh well, such is life!!!

[smokshwn]

At what point do you draw the line.

We have a guy that shows up from time to time with a coffee can full of different reloads .... God only knows what bullet weights/powder/OAL etc he has mixed together and he always has the same predictable results.

The attractiveness of this sport is that it is ultimately the rawest form of competition, and that is competition with ones self. In other words....How good are you today at this moment??? That includes, equipment, environmental conditions, the day of the week, moon cycle, personal life etc. Either you got it, or you need to work on it. Generally just like most worthwhile accomplishments the answer is usually "work on it".

If the need to have do overs and a sense of accomplishment without effort and work is of more importance to someone, then this probably is not the sport for you.

Edited January 9, 2010 by smokshwn

[VegasOPM]

I used to race cars as a hobbyand if my car broke down, I was done. Frustrating to drive 9 hours to a race, only to have my car fail tech inspection- but I learned something from it. In car racing, just as in USPSA, most of the equipment failures happen due to either lack of maintenance of trying to go faster. Let's face it, if I took a bone stock GLOCK with new mags to a match and used full power factory ammo, the chance of a failure is pretty slim. However, taking a highly tuned Open gun with a 1# trigger, C-More sight and hand loaded .38SC ammo means I can go a LOT faster, but the chance of gear failure is higher. You pays your money and you takes your chances.

There is another offshoot that causes concern. Let's say that I notice a mike on a target that I have already passed. It doesn't take a lot of pressure on the slide with my left thumb to make my Open gun fail to eject. "Oh look, a stove pipe- too bad about that mike, I'll take the re-shoot".

[DocMcG]

+1 on the fact that kit failures suck and that there should be no "do overs."

When I started reloading I tuned my loads to my rifle through lots of testing and bench trials. Man, I was ready to go! Unfortunately, during the testing I was loading one round at a time off the top of an empty mag. Wouldn't you know that during the first rifle stage of my next match none of my reloads would feed because the OAL was too long and I failed to test feed in a mag! (Those reloading manuals are not supposed to lie!) It stung to walk to the pro-shop and buy $20/box Hornady TAP, but I learned a valuable lesson.

Many times the vicarious experience of a mistake/failure is the best teacher. As I learn more about our wonderful sport I try to keep in mind that, as in life, the learning resulting from the mistakes are many times more valuable than the success. We just try not to experience the same mistakes in a cyclical manner!

Kyle

[Larry White]

Shooter ready?---------------Larry

[smokshwn]

Shooter ready?---------------Larry

Exactly! :cheers

Once again you have shown me that my mastery of the written word is wanting.

[gb32]

While running a shooter at the FB3G last year on stage 9 there AR malfunctioned (hammer pin walked out, trigger won't work) she tried to clear it and was unsucessful. She looked at me and said "I don't know what to do." I responded with "I'd ground that thing and shoot some pistol." She drove on to the ranger objective. Equipment is the shooters responsibility. No ifs, ands or buts.

[Jim Norman]

Some number of years back at the USPSA Factory Gun Nationals in PASA, I was sort of doing double duty as Squad Wrangler and Videographer. Well wouldn't you know it, I forgot to load my mags. I also forgot to not put empty mags in my belt between stages.

SO I go to the line, Load and make ready, Beep, 10 really nice well placed shots, last shot is on an activator popper that releases two sliders with three targets or 30 points worth of shooting. So I drop the mag in preparation for a lightning fast reload only to go through three mags with no bullets until I got to the one all the way around back that was still loaded.

I really and I mean really would have liked to get a reshoot on that stage.

Nope, and the drop-turner actually broke, although sadly it activated for me, it just couldn't be reset, so I took the 30 points down as well as the extra several seconds while I stood there sorting through the mags to find one with bullets.

Wynn, I have to agree with the majority here, The only reason for a Re-shoot is some form of REF. Early pasting, failure of a prop to activate, failure to reset properly, RO interference, Some sort of safety issue where you are stopped, targets or walls getting blown over in the wind. Gun failure, ammo failure, brain failure, general screw-up on the part of the shooter, Sorry, no alibis in "Practical" Shooting.

A large part of what this sport is about is being ready. Bullseye (Rifle or Pistol) is all about making the smallest hole in the target possible. They get one alibi per match. Been there, done that, good practice, but I can't stand the excitement.

I have had more than a few screw-ups due to equipment. All but one has essentialy been the fault of ME. Lube, clean, repair before the match. The one that was not me was a broken sear on an AR. I have gotten a gun back from a the smith with a new barrel that ran one type of head fine, but match day came around and I grabbed my regular ammo and no go. I couldn't get through a single mag. My fault, I should have verified that the gun would run before the match. It does now.

Jim

[twodownzero]

I think this thread illustrates that there are some of us who just love shooting and would show up even if there was no score, and others who are competitive enough that it wouldn't be fun without the competitive part.

I know that I push myself to do my best every match, but I don't care if I beat everyone or don't make it above the bottom of the list. It's just a game and I learn something every time.

Learning how to maintain my equipment is part of that, too.