weapon/ammunition failure

[gb32]

If we're keeping score, I want to win.

If we're not, I don't know that I want to play.

Not to be interpreted that if I am not winning I don't want to play.

[AlamoShooter]

1chota asked for thoughts and opinions, but I don't think he likes the responce.

Most clubs can and will help new shooters to "Live and Learn"

its the help the guy gets after the failure that counts

Edited January 10, 2010 by AlamoShooter

[1chota]

1chota asked for thoughts and opinions, but I don't think he likes the responce.

Most clubs can and will help new shooters to "Live and Learn"

its the help the guy gets after the failure that counts

on the contrary, i wanted to know what others thought. opinions are like belly buttons, every one has one. i like to see what people think. i haven't had to experience broken gun. i lived with mags that didn't work, but that was an immediate action drill thing. i have witnessed both sides of this and i wanted to see what others thought. i still think, from my point of view, that if the extractor breaks, it ain't the shooter's fault. be that as it may, drive on!

[A well Earled machine]

I agree with the idea that if you're halfway into the stage and your gun pukes it's a crummy deal but it's all on you:) If, however a shooter comes to the line, loads, waits for the beep, engages [aims at] his first target and gets no bang - and is not able to fix it right there he should - IMHO - get another chance to run the stage.

I may be a soft hearted CRO but I believe you should be able to give the stage you best shot. Again, IMHO, that is where the line should be drawn - "No first shot, you get to fix your blaster and try again." I know this is not quite what 5.7.1, 5.7.4 & 5.7.6 say but I think it's the right thing to do.

Say you start shooting and your slide leaps of your frame [or whatever], as long as you can put it into Cond. 1 or 3 and place it into the proper safety retention device [bucket] you should be able to pick up your next gun and continue on. It may take a little more time to make the busted gun safe and you'll get the FTE's and mikes for that gun but you should be able to finish the stage.

I pretty much get a free ride but you folks put a lot of time and a whole lot of money into a major match and I think you should be given every chance to [safely] earn all the points you can. It's my job [as I see it] to help you do that within the confines of the rule book.

There's my $.02 worth,

EJ

[ken hebert]

Before the beep and and if you can fix it before the last shooter on your squad shoots, yeah.

After the beep, nope.

[mike.45]

What I would like to see, and I think this is what Wynn is talking about is the ability to engage targets with a gun that the targets are not for, and as long as its safe, why not ! On stage 7 at Benning if any one of a number of guns packed up, many could have safely been engaged with another of the guns on the stage, as long as the targets were suitable for that gun, and that way at least the shooter doesnt zero the stage and gets most of their hits.

It would be a nightmare for the ROs and there is always the chance a pistol popper gets engaged with a slug, .223 etc but on paper should be fair game as long as the weapon malfunction is legitimate so there is no gaming, and the range safety allows it.

Lets face it the shooter whose gun takes a complete dump is never going to win the stage but at least the ability to engage un engaged targets and posibly get hits will not zero the stage for them as bad as it would have been.

Edited to add that you couldnt do that at Benning but as an RO on that stage there were times I thought that shooters whose guns did screw up could have easily done that if the rules allowed.

Edited January 12, 2010 by mike.45

[1chota]

I brought this thread up to see the differences in attitude betwixt the USPSA crowd and IMGA crowd. It seems most of the responses are from the USPSA crowd. Even, though some of them shoot the IMGA or "outlaw" matches. I had hoped the people who said it is bad when the gun goes down, but our rules say 'so sorry, charlie', would have at least considered the other side of the coin and how it would be if they could benefit from such a thing. I have seen on several occasions in "outlaw" matches (read IMGA) where the ROs allowed the shooter to repair the malfunction and shoot the stage for score. I heard on numerous occasions that those ROs would say they were "shooter friendly". I kinda liked that. I do know that there is a very real difference in attitude on the part of the entire match staff at the IMGA matches.

the fellow that quoted several rule numbers was obviously quoting the USPSA rule book. Most, if not all, of the IMGA matches have fairly simple rules and they do draw quite the crowd. Scoring at these matches is quite simple also. No major, minor, or whatever. If it makes a hole in paper and knocks down the steel, it must be doing what it is supposed to.

I think the sport is about the shooters and it should be shooter friendly.

I will say this, though; even those who disagree with me are good people and I enjoy their company when we shoot together. (perhaps with the exception of that guy from Arizona who talks with an English accent just to pick up the chicks.) eh, Mikey?

[Bryan 45]

I'm going to have to disagree also, and I'm not in the "USPSA" crowd. (although I do still have an active membership.) When I RO, I would consider myself shooter-friendly. I am more concerned about a shooter navigating the stage safely rather than breaking out my protractor and have more than once helped a new shooter find a "missing" target.

It is a game, but lets not completely stray from the roots of our sport. I pray that I never have to use a firearm to defend myself or my family, but in real life there are no DO-OVERS or reshoots. I think it's the competitors responsibility to have tested both equipment and ammo thoroughly enough to ensure it's going to work. Shoot enough and parts will break, but checking and replacing is routine maintenance.

I do support the idea Mike mentions about safely finishing a stage w/ another gun.

[el pres]

I shoot many more "major" "IMGA" matches then USPSA matches ??

So what does that make me ?

Actualy most that posted here do as this is in the "Multigun" rules section ..

Edited January 12, 2010 by P.Pres

[Jim Norman]

I am a USPSA Shooter. I am ALSO and primarily a SHOOTER. I have said to many, that if it goes bang, I'll shoot it.

That said. there are rules to this sport and a sport is what it is. One of the rules is that there are no alibis. You step to the line, you LAMR and on the beep, you go. Now, if you can't LAMR, you can stand down and try later, however once the beep goes, you go.

That said, I support engagement of any target with any weapon provided it can be done safely and without damage to the range equipment. What do we mean by this? No you can't shoot shotgun slugs at steel under 50 yards? 75 yards? Rifles at pistol or shotgun steel. You should be able to engage any paper with any solid projectile. I would argue against shooting paper with birdshot. You should be able to shoot your pistol at shotgun steel and your shotgun at rifle steel, good luck on the 300 yard plats with a slug, but you might make it with a pistol if you are really good and more than a little lucky.

What I am against is getting part way into a stage and getting a do over that didn't occur due to REF or a safety issue that required you to be stopped mid-stage.

Jim

[smokshwn]

Not quite sure where you get a USPSA crowd and IMGA crowd mentality. There are a few who won't shoot one or the other but the vast majority of Multigunners shoot whatever matches are available to them (geographically, financially etc.).

There are plenty of different rulesets, scoring methods, etc. from match to match. However your question specifically spoke of allowing an action that is not allowed in any multigun match that I am aware of regardless of USPSA, IMGA, IDPA, etc.

I think what you are confused by is the difference between a local match versus a larger match. None of which allow a competitor a reshoot due to a weapon/ammo/brain fart malfunction.

Edited January 12, 2010 by smokshwn

[rz317]

We are testing the competitors ability to keep their gear RUNNING. Nascar doesn't let you re-run daytona because you blew an engine. Last time I check major matches fill up to a waiting list.

+1

RZ

[bigbrowndog]

in defence of Wynn's observation there was/is a major match that is frequently sold out, that I personally, as well as the others on my squad have seen RO's give reshoots for gun malfunctions??????? a total of 3 were given to a shooter before he finally decided to just take what he had and leave the stage, his gun was the issue but the RO "allowed" reshoots based on it malfunctioning????????????????????????

i was amazed at the practice, but chalked it up to just another anomaly that takes place at this match, several interpretations have lead to very interesting behaviors by this RO team and match staff.

I still shoot the match but am always ready for the unbelievable to take place.

Trapr

[smokshwn]

in defence of Wynn's observation there was/is a major match that is frequently sold out, that I personally, as well as the others on my squad have seen RO's give reshoots for gun malfunctions??????? a total of 3 were given to a shooter before he finally decided to just take what he had and leave the stage, his gun was the issue but the RO "allowed" reshoots based on it malfunctioning????????????????????????

i was amazed at the practice, but chalked it up to just another anomaly that takes place at this match, several interpretations have lead to very interesting behaviors by this RO team and match staff.

I still shoot the match but am always ready for the unbelievable to take place.

Trapr

You'll have to clue me in on the match, as it must have slipped by me

[1chota]

Not quite sure where you get a USPSA crowd and IMGA crowd mentality. There are a few who won't shoot one or the other but the vast majority of Multigunners shoot whatever matches are available to them (geographically, financially etc.).

There are plenty of different rulesets, scoring methods, etc. from match to match. However your question specifically spoke of allowing an action that is not allowed in any multigun match that I am aware of regardless of USPSA, IMGA, IDPA, etc.

I think what you are confused by is the difference between a local match versus a larger match. None of which allow a competitor a reshoot due to a weapon/ammo/brain fart malfunction.

There are plenty of different rulesets, scoring methods, etc. from match to match. However your question specifically spoke of allowing an action that is not allowed in any multigun match that I am aware of regardless of USPSA, IMGA, IDPA, etc actually, if you read my last post, that is exactly what i have seen happen in matches other than USPSA matches. as to mindset of the different matches, go to the thread about the USPSA nationals and look at all the negative comments. ???????????????

Edited January 12, 2010 by 1chota

[bigbrowndog]

wynn, he has been clued in!!!!!!!!!!!!!

trapr

[1chota]

wynn, he has been clued in!!!!!!!!!!!!!

trapr

My bad! I ain't having the best of days myself. I think we have exhausted this subject. SMOKSHWN: My humblest apologies.

[ken hebert]

I brought this thread up to see the differences in attitude betwixt the USPSA crowd and IMGA crowd. It seems most of the responses are from the USPSA crowd. Even, though some of them shoot the IMGA or "outlaw" matches. I had hoped the people who said it is bad when the gun goes down, but our rules say 'so sorry, charlie', would have at least considered the other side of the coin and how it would be if they could benefit from such a thing. I have seen on several occasions in "outlaw" matches (read IMGA) where the ROs allowed the shooter to repair the malfunction and shoot the stage for score. I heard on numerous occasions that those ROs would say they were "shooter friendly". I kinda liked that. I do know that there is a very real difference in attitude on the part of the entire match staff at the IMGA matches.

the fellow that quoted several rule numbers was obviously quoting the USPSA rule book. Most, if not all, of the IMGA matches have fairly simple rules and they do draw quite the crowd. Scoring at these matches is quite simple also. No major, minor, or whatever. If it makes a hole in paper and knocks down the steel, it must be doing what it is supposed to.

I think the sport is about the shooters and it should be shooter friendly.

I will say this, though; even those who disagree with me are good people and I enjoy their company when we shoot together. (perhaps with the exception of that guy from Arizona who talks with an English accent just to pick up the chicks.) eh, Mikey?

<--- Not a big fan of USPSA multigun at the moment.. See other thread. Now, as far as allowing a competitor to finish a stage with another weapon, there are some matches that allow and even encourage it, namely the LaRue Tactical 3-gun match. If this is what you are looking for then I strongly encourage you to visit the Lone Star State and partake of Greg's imagination. I saw the alternative weapon thing happen there last year, and you were advised in the stage briefing if it was permittable per stage.

[smokshwn]

wynn, he has been clued in!!!!!!!!!!!!!

trapr

My bad! I ain't having the best of days myself. I think we have exhausted this subject. SMOKSHWN: My humblest apologies.

No worries my friend.

No need for me to read the USPSA thread as I shot the match and bitched plenty about some of the issues.

I was just trying to stay within the original question and show some differentiation between local vs. travel matches. Probably shouldn't have been all encompassing and should have been more descriptive of the matches I was referring to.

Other than that I still feel that there are three general groups of factors that affect shooting a stage. The shooters stuff (guns, ammo, gear, mindset, stage plan), the match stuff (targets, props, RO's, stage equipment, etc.) and environmental stuff (wind, rain, bugs, sun, snow, rats, bats, cats, you get the idea). I think the shooter is solely responsible for their stuff, everybody has to deal with the damn environmental stuff and the match should only grant reshoots for the stuff it is responsible for.

[StealthyBlagga]

Like most everyone else, my feeling is that equipment reliability is the competitors problem, and testing it is part of the competition. It's a cold, hard world out there - get over it.

With the above said, I do think an outlaw match that gave EVERY competitor one "Mulligan" for the match, to be used on any stage of their choosing, might make for an interesting new dynamic. The guy who's gun broke might opt to re-shoot that stage. The guy who got a bunch of misses and no-shoots might choose that stage. Yet a third guy might shoot a stage conservatively first time around to bank a good score, then re-shoot it balls-out to see how fast he can go. The rest of us might choose a stage based on how fun it was - "wow, I want to try that again". In all cases, after taking the Mulligan, the competitor chooses which of the two score card are to be scored for the match. There would be some administrative and squadding challenges, but I think they could be overcome. Just a thought - maybe something to try in one of our local multigun matches .

Edited January 20, 2010 by StealthyBlagga

[D.Hayden]

I always thought that would be fun... kick in $5 to some local charity or something, to redo ONE stage of your choice..

[el pres]

Intresting ...

So much of 3gun is just survival, where the one who makes the least "mistakes" does the best. I like it, would change things up a little !!

Edited January 20, 2010 by P.Pres

[JeffWard]

Ive seen small local matches let folks reshoot for no score. I like this idea because, yes it is fun. At a large match, no way.

+1...

Local fun match. Go ahead! Run it twice, not for score, but for fun.

Competitive match??? Sorry buddy, we've all been there, or will be someday!

If your local matches are run by Nazis... Find/start another match!

Jeff

[sslav]

I do not believe this has anything to do with the origins of the sport or any other tactically inspired reasoning. Sports that involve equipment generally do not allow do-overs due to equipment failures. Many examples were already given. There are many more that can be given. So if a match does not permit a re-shoot due to equipment failure, it is consistent with how things are done in sports.