advice on a bolt-action?

[pjb45]

I am not an expert and do not play one on TV. I am just a causal user. I have shot the Savage, Rem, Win, Sako, AI and a Tubbs.

Out of the box pretty nothing beats the Savage. Tuned up most actions will work great. I was at Rio Salado shooting a Sako built by Kodiak Precision and an AI at the ram - about 550 meters out if I am not mistaken. I could pound the ram consistently with both. The guy from Kodiak, was putting tight groups into the ram's head. That gun could shoot. The trigger Sako was far superior to the AI. Both guns had excellent glass. Check out the Sako. It is a fantastic gun. You might be surprised at how good they can shoot.

The Tubbs was a whole other story--what are they about $7K?

[GrumpyOne]

STI GUY, I have been out of the military for 20 years, but when I was in, the military used the cheapest bid they could get to purchase items without regard to quality. We had total crap for cold weather gear, knives etc. When something says official military issue, I usually run from it. I'm not saying anything bad about the 700 because I have a nice one in .25-06. Have a lot of work done to it and it shoots about a half inch. Great gun, but it should shoot with what I have in it. A couple years ago there was a program where you could donate scopes to Marine snipers that were in the Gulf. Why were we haveing to donate?-because the Marine system wouldn't let them purchase them! Anyway, if you look at elite units, they had NO issued stuff, all their stuff was ordered from the civillian market, because the issued stuff was just low bidder crap. All I'm saying is because something says official military issue-that doesn't make it good. I will also say that I think it is sad because our guys (and girls) deserve the best they can get, especially when going into a bad situation. I truly hope things have gotten better since I've gotten out, but military issue means absolutely total avoidance to me.

Hmmm, what platform did Hathcox use in Vietnam? Whether it was civilian bought or government bought, it seemed to work pretty well. Out to about a mile if I remember correctly. Oh yeah, it was a Remington 700.......I remember now.

Inferring that the government buys inferior equipment because of price is a personal opinion, and while it may buy from the lowest bidder, have you not yourself bought something, somewhere, that cost less than Mac Daddy piece of what you wanted, but it ended up working better and lasting longer than the Mac Daddy piece?

Inferring that the Government buys cheaper is completely unfounded when you look at the change over from M14 rifles to the M16 in the 1960's. There are other factors involved other than price when the government chooses a certain platform or design.

Just wondering, does the "miltary issue" avoidance also include Lake City ammo? And, do you not own a 1911, Berretta 92, M1 Garand, M14, or just aabout any AR platform, or FN platform because they were "Military Issue"?

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edited AGAIN for content

Edited December 28, 2009 by GrumpyOne

[Tom Freeman]

The Tubbs was a whole other story--what are they about $7K?

Right now they are going for about $4000. I sold mine last year and bought an AIAW. I miss my T2K a little bit, but the AI is better for running around the hills where the T2K works great where dust, dirt and debris isnt too much of a factor.

[warpspeed]

I'd recommend going with the Rem700 platform. Lots of proven after market stuff. Lots of 'smiths that know how to make them shoot.

[gregdavidl]

Precision Shooting magazine is the best source of accuracy rifle information. They do more than just have articles on bench rest rifles. In fact, most months it seems they have articles about anything other than bench rest rifles. They cover many other rifle shooting sports, optics, ballistics, etc. All-in-all a well rounded and entertaining magazine.

[Viggen]

STI GUY, I have been out of the military for 20 years, but when I was in, the military used the cheapest bid they could get to purchase items without regard to quality. We had total crap for cold weather gear, knives etc. When something says official military issue, I usually run from it. I'm not saying anything bad about the 700 because I have a nice one in .25-06. Have a lot of work done to it and it shoots about a half inch. Great gun, but it should shoot with what I have in it. A couple years ago there was a program where you could donate scopes to Marine snipers that were in the Gulf. Why were we haveing to donate?-because the Marine system wouldn't let them purchase them! Anyway, if you look at elite units, they had NO issued stuff, all their stuff was ordered from the civillian market, because the issued stuff was just low bidder crap. All I'm saying is because something says official military issue-that doesn't make it good. I will also say that I think it is sad because our guys (and girls) deserve the best they can get, especially when going into a bad situation. I truly hope things have gotten better since I've gotten out, but military issue means absolutely total avoidance to me.

Hmmm, what platform did Hathcox use in Vietnam? Whether it was civilian bought or government bought, it seemed to work pretty well. Out to about a mile if I remember correctly. Oh yeah, it was a Remington 700.......I remember now.

Inferring that the government buys inferior equipment because of price is a personal opinion, and while it may buy from the lowest bidder, have you not yourself bought something, somewhere, that cost less than Mac Daddy piece of what you wanted, but it ended up working better and lasting longer than the Mac Daddy piece?

Inferring that the Government buys cheaper is completely unfounded when you look at the change over from M14 rifles to the M16 in the 1960's. There are other factors involved other than price when the government chooses a certain platform or design.

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Lowest bidder or only bidder, if the political connections or political situation come to light. Just wander through the government procurement process and there are all kinds of examples of "other factors". Not real awe inspiring.

Shooter Steve has it right

[twodownzero]

Lowest bidder who can meet the specifications is the key point. There's nothing really wrong with a Remington rifle. It was designed as an inexpensive bolt action, it has sold more than any other, and it does the job. That said, just because it's popular doesn't make it the best. Savages are known to be fine rifles and they're not as expensive. And obviously my beloved Win M70 has done its thing in combat and in the field as well. It's really all a matter of preference.

[ShooterSteve]

Not trying to be argumentative, but I have been directly on the receiving end of gov't purchasing, and yes I can say for a FACT, that the gov't buys the cheapest stuff that will meet the requirement of the tool involved. If there is a tool that will do the job for $79, but it will barely do the job, and will probably break after you use it several times, that is what they will order by the thousands. If there is a tool that costs $139, but is far superior, you usually won't see it. Go look at units from the teams, are they carrying standard Navy issue knives? Don't think so. Are they carrying standard M-9s? Maybe, but I wouldn't bet on it. Same for SF. The dive knives that were issued to my unit were such a poorly designed pos, that the first thing we did with a brand new knife was stick the tip in a vise and break it off, and get to work on it with a file to get the point right. Then recontour the edge back to the new tip. I had to put about 3 hours into a cheap knife to get it right. If they had stuck with the plain old K-bar we would have been better off. I had to do everyone it the units knives, because I was decent at fixing it.

I was in charge of our Zodiac IBS. We had three of them, that were falling apart. Zodiac had used a new glue that seemed good but didn't hold up after a couple months. The boats were a good design, but falling apart. I needed a can of MEK to repair them, and you could buy it at the local marina for about $20, but since it was in the Navy stock system, I wasn't allowed to purchase it at the marina. Ever had stuff you are in charge of absolutely falling apart, and you can stand there and look across San Diego bay at the marina, but you can't get what you need because of the Navy stock system. Your whole platoon is almost shut down because you don't have a $20 can of MEK but you aren't allowed to take 15 mins to go buy some....don't even get me started...

I don't think Hathcock shot his 700 at a mile, especially since the 308 was standard in the rifles then. I believe that shot was from a .50. I may be wrong, but the facts need to be checked and correct.

My bottom line point is, the 700 is a good platform, I have no problem with them, but gov't issued stuff is usually, not always, but usually junk, and if someone says this is good stuff, and it is GI issue, I run like hell.

[pjb45]

Tom, I might be including the glass on the gun when I did the original estimate. Matt owned both the AI and Tubbs. He does not use cheap glass. Neither does Kodiak--Swarowski is mighty fine glass.

[GrumpyOne]

Not trying to be argumentative, but I have been directly on the receiving end of gov't purchasing, and yes I can say for a FACT, that the gov't buys the cheapest stuff that will meet the requirement of the tool involved. If there is a tool that will do the job for $79, but it will barely do the job, and will probably break after you use it several times, that is what they will order by the thousands. If there is a tool that costs $139, but is far superior, you usually won't see it. Go look at units from the teams, are they carrying standard Navy issue knives? Don't think so. Are they carrying standard M-9s? Maybe, but I wouldn't bet on it. Same for SF. The dive knives that were issued to my unit were such a poorly designed pos, that the first thing we did with a brand new knife was stick the tip in a vise and break it off, and get to work on it with a file to get the point right. Then recontour the edge back to the new tip. I had to put about 3 hours into a cheap knife to get it right. If they had stuck with the plain old K-bar we would have been better off. I had to do everyone it the units knives, because I was decent at fixing it.

I was in charge of our Zodiac IBS. We had three of them, that were falling apart. Zodiac had used a new glue that seemed good but didn't hold up after a couple months. The boats were a good design, but falling apart. I needed a can of MEK to repair them, and you could buy it at the local marina for about $20, but since it was in the Navy stock system, I wasn't allowed to purchase it at the marina. Ever had stuff you are in charge of absolutely falling apart, and you can stand there and look across San Diego bay at the marina, but you can't get what you need because of the Navy stock system. Your whole platoon is almost shut down because you don't have a $20 can of MEK but you aren't allowed to take 15 mins to go buy some....don't even get me started...

I don't think Hathcock shot his 700 at a mile, especially since the 308 was standard in the rifles then. I believe that shot was from a .50. I may be wrong, but the facts need to be checked and correct.

My bottom line point is, the 700 is a good platform, I have no problem with them, but gov't issued stuff is usually, not always, but usually junk, and if someone says this is good stuff, and it is GI issue, I run like hell.

While I do agree with you on almost every point, my point was: Sterotyping is just an opinion. Like I said earlier, just because something is cheap, doesn't mean that it's crap, and just because something is expensive, doesn't mean that it is perfect, I.E. Bradley Fighting vehicle, how much did that damn thing cost? a couple of billion because of cost overuns?

[Jaxshooter]

I own two Remington 700 5 R .308s. One is box stock and the other has had the action blueprinted with the factory barrel refit. It is in an AI 1.5 stock with NF glass. Both guns are sub MOA rifles with Federal, Black Hills or handloads. The only thing I would consider other than a Renibgton 40 or 700 action would be a custom action like Surgeon or Panda if I were building another rifle. I have an older (early 80s) .243 Remington 700 ADL that will be the next donor action.

[Singlestack]

Please get off of the Goverment and stay on topic.

[RufDog]

Precision Shooting magazine is the best source of accuracy rifle information. They do more than just have articles on bench rest rifles. In fact, most months it seems they have articles about anything other than bench rest rifles. They cover many other rifle shooting sports, optics, ballistics, etc. All-in-all a well rounded and entertaining magazine.

+1 for PS

[GrumpyOne]

Please get off of the Goverment and stay on topic.

Point taken! Remington 700 Sendero.

[Viggen]

700 is a good action, so is the Savage. What is cost effective can mean different things to different people at different times. That barrel swaps can be done easily on a Savage can be a big deal when smithing costs matter.

[Rob01]

How often do you guys think you are going to be rebarreling the rifles?

[Religious Shooter]

Hathcock mostly used a Winchester 70 in 30-06.

I'd recommend a 700P if you are going to stick with the same stock.

A 700 SPS Varmint if you are going to get rid of the stock stock.

[smokshwn]

How often do you guys think you are going to be rebarreling the rifles?

I would love it if I had enough time with everything else to get to shoot enough precision rifle to get to a rebarrel

[twodownzero]

How often do you guys think you are going to be rebarreling the rifles?

that depends on how many calibers you want to shoot.

I am considering selling my precision rifle to buy a limited gun. this sport is addicting.

Edited December 29, 2009 by twodownzero

[1911vm]

With all the debate I am going to try to narrow all the info and let’s see if I understood all that has been said. 700 is defiantly the way to go because of all the customizing possibilities that can be done all at ones or a little at a time. Savage could be inconsistent but if you have a good rifle it is very good out of the box, and if you are not planning to play with it is also a good way to go.

So this is my plan let’s see if this makes sense to anyone. First I am getting a savage from a friend at a good price, get a really good glass that I can put on any rifle, and start shooting. And mean while save for something like Accuracy International.

[Rob01]

How often do you guys think you are going to be rebarreling the rifles?

that depends on how many calibers you want to shoot.

I am considering selling my precision rifle to buy a limited gun. this sport is addicting.

Yes if you want a switch barrel that is different and can still be done on a 700 but one barrel on a precision rifle will last the normal shooter a few years at the earliest. I shoot alot and my .308 barrel is going on 3 years now. A rebarrel on a 700 on average will run about $320 for the barrel and $350 for the install. $670 isn't alot when spread out over the amount of years it will take to wear that barrel out.

If you have one rifle to compete at matches and one to practice, as I do with my 6.5 Creedmoor(match) and .308(practice), they will last longer.

I just don't want people reading this thinking they will have to be replacing barrels every few months.

[Boats]

Barrel life depends on how you use it.

My experience is best performance goes south with .308's at about 4000 rounds. I have an old 03 sporter 30-06 with about 6000 through a Douglas barrel and the throat is real worn. It used to put 10 shots in 6 inches at 500 Meters and has a hard time making 10 in 10 inches now. Not good enough for match shooting.

Smaller the bore and hotter the load with the 308 case faster they wear. 243's are rarely seen in Silhouette because it's hard to get 2000 rounds out of one. Silhouette you shoot more rounds than other types of competition so time per barrel is shorter. Am getting good results out of the 7mm 08 by not loading to the absolute max pressure. Boat Tail bullets are harder on the barrel than flat base too. That's why I only use boat tails for Rams, flat base hunting bullets for the shorter targets, they cost half as much too. Our club monthly matches generally shoot 100 rounds mimimum entering the gun twice, once as a Silhouette rifle again as a Hunter class rifle. Add another 100 during the month practice. Throw in a state match and it's easy to shoot 3000 rounds per year. Most guys that are serious shoot two guns. You don't want to have expensive travel tied up in a match without a back up gun and it spreads the wear.

On the other hand cast bullets at modest velocities have extremely long barrel life. I have a 38/55 Schuetzen rifle that was built in 1993 and from primer count has well over 25,000 rounds though it's Douglas barrel. It still performs like the day it was new.

Boats

Edited December 29, 2009 by Boats

[Boats]

On your glass.

Think about how you are going to use the scope. I use Swarovski binocs because then need to be light and easy on my eyes scanning all day. Spotting scope needs to have good resolution too but I can get away with one of the old 25x fixed power Leopold's with the advantage of being much smaller and easy to carry it doubles as a hunting spotter. However for spotting on target ranges large objective lens is often worth the money and bulk. 77 & 82 MM 27x LER Kowa's rule most target ranges. With Glass you get what you pay for and no substitute for large objective lens.

Your rifle is another thing. As far as glass quality all you need to do is see the target and if match shooting it's pretty well defined. You don't want bad glass but if only looking long enough to break the shot Swarovski quality glass is not needed. I can't see the reason for extremely large objective lens, Scope has to sit high and I don't need that much resolution to see targets, 40 mm is plenty. Waterproof is nice to have although I have done a lot of shooting with old scopes that are not waterproof at all. Weaver T's Lyman STS and Unertil's.

Important to me is crisp easy to read scope knobs, ability to zero the knob out for accurate adjustment and with perfect clicks, no slop, and repeatable. Like to have the reticule set up as I like it too. Leupold is the leader on target ranges because they have a nice balance of glass quality, adjustments, and weatherproof. 6.5x20's with target knobs cost half of Swarovski's and can be customised to suit exactly what you want. If you shoot one loose Leupold will fix it fast with no charge. I am running two of them in Leopolds QD mounts and switch from rifle to rifle no change in notebook zeros. The cheap Asian Scopes rarely come up to adjustment standards needed.

Nothing wrong with the high dollar European scopes wish I had a few, but they are not necessary.

Boats

Edited December 29, 2009 by Boats

[Bacon]

I have a remington LTR, PSS, tactical and varmint. with nightforce,leupold, and menace scopes. If your in the Hartford area you can try them out at my 600 yard range. If your friend will let you use the Savage bring it along.

[Rob01]

Where do you have 600 yards in Hartford?