RufDog

"I've played with one of the Geissele 3 Gun triggers once, and I still cannot wrap my head around why someone would want to put something like that in any gun. But to each his or her own." ^^Well said. I've had a couple of the Geissles (3G & another whose name has escaped me). I found them both to come up short of the hype & gave them away.

What barrel are you using? Also, what are your groups like with other ammo (whats your best group)?

I'm a Zombie AND I like lasers; do you think this scope is right for me?

Thanks for all the great responses guys. Pinman, I appreciate your input. -Ruf

The accuracy comments surprise me. 5x5s aren't an issue, nor A head shots @ 25.

This is the most praise I've heard for this powder in a public forum, I can feel the love. I've always been a fan of the lighter bullets. Pinman & Twodownzero, thanks for the tip; I had never had anyone specifically say that, but I have always used bullets on the lighter side of what is common. 135-155 is what I like in a 40 & I like the 121-125 in 9.

I love clays powder in 40 & 9mm. I shoot mostly 3G but used it a lot for IPSC 40 Major. I've loaded some 9mm with it. Currently I have a load @ 1.17 oal Montana Gold 124 FMJ & 4.0gr of Clays. It seems to make a great 3G load in the 6" 9 S_I coming in at 125pf & 1000fps. I am unable to comprehend how everyone carrys on about it being so "unsafe". I'm interested to hear what loads others are using with Clays. -Ruf

4th go was Voight v. Butler. Voight got a reshoot (not for a scope issue) and then spoke to the ROs at the rifle he had just shot. An RO shot the rifle, missed, took off the caps, touched the adjustments, shot a few, touched the adjustments again, shot a few more and then put the caps back on. Voight then beat Butler on the reshoot. That is as straight as I can relay my observation. Therein lies the problem. Im surprised the three guys who were beat didnt complain about a scope being re-zeroed. This should have been grounds for a re-shoot of the whole match. Again with the assumptions. Reread Mark's comment. As one who has court/legal experience he specifically indicates to you that although those of us in attendance saw the incident in question we still don't know if the adjustments were changed/confirmed/checked etc. only that they may have been questioned. If in fact adjustments were made an assumption could be made that the match administrators would have offered reshoots, and conversely if reshoots were not offered then the assumption would be no adjustments were made. My simple point is instead of making broad accusations of impropriety, stop and consider that nothing inappropriate occurred. The work that went in to making 3 Gun Nation successful for the last couple of years and growing incredibly quickly was phenomenal and not without significant risk. I think when questions arise they have earned the benefit of the doubt....and many thanks. How you can take the description of events and somehow glean from it that a rifle wasn't rezeroed has me scratching my head. I don't think anyone has suggested impropriety. I think that someone dropped the ball when the decision was made to change scopes and change ammunition, and a rifle wasn't properly zeroed. Mistakes happen. The situation could have been rectified after Voigt requested a zero correction by letting previous shooters reshoot as well. Again mistakes happen but it seems like the desire instead is to sweep the whole thing under a rug. Nobody has condemned 3GN or the sponsors because they have undoubtedly done a tremendous service to the sport. Major matches would not happen without the sponsors. But so far the evidence that I have seen suggests that a mistake was made, and the response so far has given me no confidence that it is even being acknowledged. How is this beneficial to the integrity of the sport as a whole? Well put by a reasonable voice.

This doesn't damage the sport from an outside perspective, its damage is internal to the participants. I hope there is a good explanation & respect afforded to the participants. Is it possible the connections & support from companies will allow the 3GN machine to run on its own now with out that regard?.....

I was very impressed with everything. The match atmosphere was one of the friendliest I have seen, Jim was great & Sheldon has really earned my respect as a match administrator. Sandara & Julie were in the stats shack doing a great job with #s. I think Julie is going to be the next Spice Girl, "Sassy Spice". Stage 9 was money. The hill leading to 8 & 9 should have been a side event "hill climb" requiring rental vehicles only for entry.

This has been a great match. I am really impressed!

I think the changes to the match format are very appealing!

I've had some bad experiences with them. Nothing dramatic but also in running some stages in major matches I do see them fail more than steel mags. Conversely I think Daniel Horner ran them at the Pro/AM, he probably doenst use them for long though....... its a crap shoot. I have GI mags wtih GI followers, an HK mag & C-products that have been absolutely GREAT.

I've ran regular ones with different tac latches & thought they were ok. I now have a Black Rain milled handle with the big tab & its a good program. It is extremely SH (& the latch isnt overly aggressive yet plenty aggressive)

I put a gas block on once & just winged it. Turned out fine. Boomfab knows more about doing it right though.

Syrac is making them in clamp on now.

Syrac Ordnance just came out with a kick ass gas block. They offer clamp on & the adjustment screw has detents & doesnt require locktite. Just push the detent pin & turn. Release & its locked. http://syracordnance.com/

Joe put on another good match.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Midwest-3-Gun-Championships/185960018118011?ref=ts&sk=wall facebook page for the match

What a great read/debate. Velocity loss & actual down range effect aren't that great 16-20. Maybe those other guys are running 20s because its just easier to deal with KM??? swap on, swap off

Neil Wiggans

I have done a couple of things that may help you... surecycle recoil spring system with light spring OR the browning/winchester light 12/20ga recoil spring. sealed piston (by surecycle) or I run a light clays piston I can cycle ammo down to 3/4 oz

I have 2 SX2s & ordered the light 12/20ga recoil spring for one & put a surcycle in the other (with the light spring). It cycles most ammo to include 3/4, 7/8, 1oz ammo. How do you put down steel???? use an appropriate shell for it that corresponds with distance and choke...... good question

http://www.6mmbr.com/gailmcmbreakin.html How to Break-in a Barrel -- A Dissenting Point of View Gale McMillan, of McMillan Stocks fame, was one of the finest barrel-makers and benchrest shooters of all time. Here he argues that elaborate barrel break-in procedures do more harm than good. Comments collected from Gale's Gun Forum postings. As a barrel maker I have looked in thousands of new and used barrels with a bore scope and I will tell you that if every one followed the prescribed [one shot, one clean] break-in method, a very large number would do more harm than good. The reason you hear of the gain in accuracy is because if you chamber a barrel with a reamer that has a dull throater instead of cutting clean sharp rifling it smears a burr up on the down wind side of the rifling. It takes from one to two hundred rounds to burn this burr out and the rifle to settle down and shoot its best. Any one who chambers rifle barrels has tolerances on how dull to let the reamer get and factories let them go longer than any competent smith would. Another tidbit to consider--take a 300 Win Mag that has a life expectancy of 1000 rounds. Use 10% of it up with your break-in procedure. For every 10 barrels the barrel-maker makes he has to make one more just to take care of the break-in. No wonder barrel-makers like to see this. Now when you flame me on this please [explain] what you think is happening to the inside of your barrel during the break in that is helping you. Consider this: every round shot in breaking-in a barrel is one round off the life of said rifle barrel. No one has ever told me the physical reason of what happens during break-in firing. In other words what, to the number of pounds of powder shot at any given pressure, is the life of the barrel. No one has ever explained what is being accomplished by shooting and cleaning in any prescribed method. Start your barrel off with 5 rounds and clean it thoroughly and do it again. Nev Maden, a friend down under that my brother taught to make barrels was the one who came up with the [one shot one clean] break-in method. He may think he has come upon something, or he has come up with another way to sell barrels. I feel that the first shot out of a barrel is its best and every one after that deteriorates [the bore] until the barrel is gone. If some one can explain what physically takes place during break-in to modify the barrel then I may change my mind. As the physical properties of a barrel don't change because of the break-in procedures it means it's all hog wash. I am open to any suggestions that can be documented otherwise if it is just someone's opinion--forget it. It all got started when a barrel maker that I know started putting break-in instructions in the box with each barrel he shipped a few years ago. I asked him how he figured it would help and his reply was if they shoot 100 rounds breaking in this barrel that's total life is 3000 rounds and I make 1000 barrels a year just figure how many more barrels I will get to make. He had a point; it definately will shorten the barrel life. I have been a barrel maker a fair amount of time and my barrels have set and reset benchrest world records so many times I quit keeping track (at one time they held 7 at one time) along with High Power, Silhouette, Smallbore national and world records and my instructions were to clean as often as possible preferably every 10 rounds. I inspect every barrel taken off and every new barrel before it is shipped with a bore scope and I will tell you all that I see far more barrels ruined by cleaning rods than I see worn out from normal wear and tear. I am even reading about people recommending breaking-in pistols. As if it will help their shooting ability or the guns'. More from Gale McMillan: http://www.snipercountry.com/Articles/Barrel_BreakIn.asp