More than the range commands,

[kevin c]

I have been told, by no less an authority than NROI, that an RO shouldn't talk to a competitor other than to read the WSP, answer questions asked and give the standard range commands. This I understand, but I've always felt there are circumstances where asking couple questions in the interest of safety should be OK. Examples would be to ask which way the competitor will turn from an uprange hot holstered start position (the rest of the squad seems to appreciate being moved out of the side turned to, in case of a sweep), or which way the competitor will move from the start, if there is more than one option (so I can keep close to the competitor). I've been told that this is akin to interference, since it may disrupt the shooter's mental preparation. If I ask everybody, and do it politely and when the shooter first steps up, I don't see that really as an issue. Safety is foremost in my mind.

Thrown out here for other opinions/perspectives...

[Pat Miles]

I've asked the same questions of shooters. I make a point of asking when they first come forward as the next shooter, never after that so I don't possibly interfere with their "make ready" routine. Most shooters appreciate the question(s) as they don't want any surprises either. Just do it early on and keep the questions short and to the point.

CYa,

Pat

[Flexmoney]

Kevin,

I always ask them if they can use the search page!

[dcbfluff]

My understanding is that the range commands start at "Make Ready." Anything you say or ask prior to that (like "which way are you going to turn?") is not a range command. If the shooter turns left instead of right (as he indicated in your question prior to Range Commands), it's not part of the range commands.

I don't ask. If a shooter tells me something about their plan ("I'm going to back up really fast at the beep") I say "thank you", but since the rules don't specify that they must explain their plan to me, I don't ask. If the stage is designed to give the shooter the option of running forward or backing up, I try to be ready for both/either, despite what the shooter says or the way I watched them do their walk through. RO's are not supposed to be part of the shooting problem.

[Chills1994]

after I say "Make ready!" I'm all business, baby.

[Pat Miles]

after I say "Make ready!" I'm all business, baby.

+1!

CYa,

Pat

[George Jones]

This is actually a two-fold issue.

1. Asking the shooter questions (or any other discussion) after the Make Ready command is bad form. Doing those things prior to the MR command may interfere with the shooter's preparation.

But more importantly.....

2. So the shooter tells you he's going to the left. You position yourself (cheat) in that direction. After the beep, the shooter goes the other way. Now, you are in a worse position, as is the gallery that you so valiantly tried to save from that potential muzzle.

What I teach is that you should simply take the optimum position regardless of which way the shooter is going to go. I don't even want to know which way the shooter "says" he's going to go. Although I will thank him for the information, I ignore it. You should respond to his body movement and you are then best positioned to protect the crowd (and yourself) from a severe 180 break or other problem.

[Flyin40]

I had this happen to me and didn't even know that it happened until I was told by a squad mate some time later. I was doing my mental prep, I was the next shooter. They finished scoring and everybody cleared the range. I was already at the start position and visualizing my plan. He comes up to me and verifies that I'm the next shooter and makes sure I'm in the start position and I go back to visualizing. He is right behind me and made a loud announcement. I thought it was "Make Ready" but I was told later that it was "Move Back, going Hot". At the time I had no idea that he had said something other than Make Ready. I was told he turned around when he yelled. I drew my gun then I then heard him say "Make Ready" again. I never thought anything of it and just thought he was repeating himself until a squad mate brought it up later who was also an CRO. I was told the RO said it right after each other. He turned and yelled "Move back, going Hot" and as he started turning back towards me he yelled "Make Ready" basically in the same sentence. That might explain why I wasn't DQ'ed. Since he wasn't looking at me when he started saying Make Ready by the time he could see me I was making ready. Just guessing............

No clue what the RO saw or thought. I'm guessing that I was thinking about the stage and expected the "Make Ready" and when I heard the RO I heard what I expected. I had heard wrong.

The squadmate said the RO should not have been saying anything but the range commands at that point and was wrong for coming up to me verifying I was the shooter, having me in the start position(which I was already in) then turning to yell at everyone else.

Also to note that I was double plugged. When the RO turned and yelled uprange it would explain why I didn't hear right.

What the RO was doing to was to let everyone know that a shooter was going hot, there were no safety issues or shooters that needed moved back. This happened at a Major match.

Whats the proper call??

This was covered in an the RO class I attended and is the same thing the CRO told me later at the match.

Flyin

Edited December 22, 2009 by Flyin40

[LPatterson]

Really bad form to say/use anything other than formal range commands if a shooter is in or near the shooting area because they may not understand english very well. That goes for southern drawl or new england twang. I have seen shooter so engrossed in their preparation that it has been necessary to call next shooter twice. If only the range commands from the rule book are used/spoken there is a lot less confussion. Once spoke to a shooter about his 6 shooter turns it was 8 shot and he was shooting Production and reloaded after 6 instead of 8 because of what I said.

[nwb01]

This is good info from different perspectives....I like it.

When/how should the RO address the gallery that the range is going hot ? Or is this not a responsiblity of the RO and falls on the gallery to pay attention to what is going on ??

[TMC]

This is good info from different perspectives....I like it.

When/how should the RO address the gallery that the range is going hot ? Or is this not a responsiblity of the RO and falls on the gallery to pay attention to what is going on ??

I make the "going hot" anouncement before for the first shooter on that stage just so every has eyes and ears on, after that it should be assumed that the shooting will continue until the entire squad has shot the stage. If there is a long pause for replacing targets for making some kind of stage repair I will anounce again when the shooting starts again.

[MarkCO]

I beleive in the vast majority of cases the extra banter and conversation by the RO is improper and in some cases, inconsiderate. The RO is supposed to ensure a fair and equal playing field for all. When extra stuff comes in, then it is no longer consistent. I do not ask which way a competitor is turning, I prepare for the possibilities. Most of the time when I am asked which way I am turning, I answer "Not sure". If the RO can't keep up with me, then they should not be ROing. IMHO, there are a lot of folks out there ROing who should take, or re-take the RO class, and some who should stop ROing altogether. There is WAY too much inconsistency of late due to people wanting to "interpret" and make additional calls and some ROs who can not keep up with the faster shooters. I shot a stage a month ago that when I was finished, I was kind of confused because there was no RO over my shoulder. He was 30 feet behind me!

The CLOCK RO is supposed to give the commands, and only the commands, and ensure proper COMPETITOR gun handling. The scoring RO is supposed to keep the gallery back and watch for things like foot faults. The scoring RO can certainly address the gallery if there is an issue, or yell STOP if there is a safety issue with anything.

I am a CRO and I have RO'd at several major matches, and we do need more ROs, but people need to know their limitations.

[BSeevers]

I tune out the "Do you have any questions? How you doing today? The range is going hot! and other statements. You shouldn't make any but even at Nationals you get this stuff.

All I ask is Are you ready? Standby, and not get buzzer jumped.

RO's should never banter before shooting and I have noticed the ones that do run to the targets and never talk to you again. That's the time to talk cause it doesn't matter.

[twodownzero]

I am not a certified RO, but when I do act as RO at local matches, I try my best to give the range commands exactly as they are supposed to be given.

It annoys me when ROs do/say what they want. One RO likes to tell me to stand before I clear my pistol (many stages require going to one's knees). I hate that. I think it's unsafe to get up with a loaded/unholstered gun, so I clear it first.

I've also been to clubs who don't understand that the scorer is an RO and the RO likes to tell me to stand further than a step behind him. Obviously this is wrong and as someone stated above, the scorer is responsible for calling "stop" or noticing procedural errors.

Most ROs do a great job in this sport, though, and don't interfere with the shooter in any way. In fact, when I'm shooting, I don't even notice the RO anymore...I just tune them out besides their instructions and concentrate on the shooting problem.

[cas]

This year at our clubs annual "big" match, the stage I was running was an empty gun start with one magazine staged ahead of the shooter. When I said "Make ready" I got lots of shrugs and questions. "Make ready how?" "I'm already ready?"

I quickly changed it to... "Is your magazine staged? Okay, then you can make ready, make sure you're on, unlocked, whatever you need to do." because so many of them were unsure what to do. It may not have been by the book, but it made everything run much smoother and evenly.

But then I kicked a guy during a match once.

A club rifle match and he was a new competitor. After about 10 rounds down range with him straddling the fault line, I kicked his foot back in. I figured he was new and his score had suffered enough at that point.

[nphd2000]

Why is all the "blame" on the RO here? Isn't it part of the competitors job to "listen" to the commands given? I understand the shooter is running through the stage in his/her mind while in the "box" waiting for the "make ready" but shouldn't the shooter have the plan down and now be prepared to shoot and waiting for the actual words "Make ready"? Once given the "make ready" the shooter can visualize the stage or first few shots during the make ready time.

I RO at a local match when needed. We shoot in a large pit that has 3 or 4 stages set-up side by side and anywhere from 1 to (rarely) 4 squads shooting in the pit. We have to be sure and announce "range is hot" or "going hot". I try to announce "range is hot" or "going hot" before my shooter is in or near the start position. In one instance the shooter was already in the start box, the shooter was experienced but had taken some time off, I command "going hot" he reaches down unholsters and loads. I am watching him and nothing was unsafe about the movements. I don't stop him, because of this very debate (should I not say anything other than make ready, did I throw his mojo off) and I follow with "make ready". He shoots the stage, no problems, blah blah "if clear holster". After we score I walk back with him and I say very politely "Don't just listen for my voice, listen to what I say" the shooter realized and understood. RO'ing is a tough job, we have to look out for the other competitors, the shooter, and ourselves. Now this was a local match, at a bigger match I guess I would expect the other competitors to be paying attention and I don't know that I would announce "going hot" I would focus on the shooter and command "make ready".

I guess my point or question is where do we draw the line?

[Flyin40]

I guess my point or question is where do we draw the line?

Yep, thats whats trying to be figured out?? I know in my RO class the point was made very clearly that the RO gives only the range commands.

Flyin

[ima45dv8]

Why is all the "blame" on the RO here? Isn't it part of the competitors job to "listen" to the commands given? I understand the shooter is running through the stage in his/her mind while in the "box" waiting for the "make ready" but shouldn't the shooter have the plan down and now be prepared to shoot and waiting for the actual words "Make ready"? Once given the "make ready" the shooter can visualize the stage or first few shots during the make ready time.

I RO at a local match when needed. We shoot in a large pit that has 3 or 4 stages set-up side by side and anywhere from 1 to (rarely) 4 squads shooting in the pit. We have to be sure and announce "range is hot" or "going hot". I try to announce "range is hot" or "going hot" before my shooter is in or near the start position. In one instance the shooter was already in the start box, the shooter was experienced but had taken some time off, I command "going hot" he reaches down unholsters and loads. I am watching him and nothing was unsafe about the movements. I don't stop him, because of this very debate (should I not say anything other than make ready, did I throw his mojo off) and I follow with "make ready". He shoots the stage, no problems, blah blah "if clear holster". After we score I walk back with him and I say very politely "Don't just listen for my voice, listen to what I say" the shooter realized and understood. RO'ing is a tough job, we have to look out for the other competitors, the shooter, and ourselves. Now this was a local match, at a bigger match I guess I would expect the other competitors to be paying attention and I don't know that I would announce "going hot" I would focus on the shooter and command "make ready".

I guess my point or question is where do we draw the line?

Great post.

For me, it depends on the shooter and what frame of mind they're in. If they're a new and nervous participant, or if they're friendly and talkative, I might chat with them some before I say "Make Ready", and that's OK by the rules. If they're a quiet, serious competitor the first words I expect them to hear from me is "Make Ready!"

If for whatever reason you have to pause the get-ready action (like, someone yells Steel Down), have them holster (if not already), then casually swing around and get directly in front of the competitor. Engage them while anyone is down range. That position seems to help people listen very well and makes no mistake that the gun stays in the holster. The times I've remembered to do this it's been upbeat and worked very well.

[VegasOPM]

I will try and help new shooters a bit before the "Make Ready" command if the stage design warrants it (especially if there is a safety concern). Prior to the first shooter, I will say "Clear the range" as well as if someone is taking too long trying to do their 5th walkthrough. When I am at one of the clubs that I shoot all of the time, I know most of the shooters pretty well. Some like to kid around, some don't. My default is serious though.

[DarthMuffin]

When running shooters I stick to the official range commands, and answering questions. After reading the stage description verbatim, and after everyone knows that's the end of the description, I may make certain clarifications. Especially safety-related ones ("If you shoot this target from that port, you will break the 180, don't try it.", "Due to the unusual start position, *please* watch your draw, don't sweep yourself, turn *then* draw.")

[XD Niner]

I too will add safety focused clarifications to a written stage description but only if the issue seems to be a problem that has a high potential of occurring. If it is a new shooter at a local match, I'll ask the individual if she or he has any questions. Beyond that I'll warn the peanut gallery if I see someone in a risky position.

I only ask a shooter which way they intend to move if there is a stage design condition that could put me as the RO in an unsafe position if the shooter makes an unexpected move. This is, of course, a poor stage design issue since such a situation should never exist. This is a very infrequent situation but it does occasionally occur at local matches. Even then I try to be prepared for an unexpected move.

At a Level 2 or above match I assume that the competitors are experienced and know the rules. Most of the shooters at these matches are trying to perform their best and are more focused on turning in a competitive performance. Therefore, I stick to the official range commands and limit any other comments to the scoring portion of their run. Of course, if I see a potential safety issue I'll always sing out.

[hitman]

Kevin,

I always ask them if they can use the search page!

Now thats funny.

Shooter do you know how to use the search page on Enos.com forum

Make ready.

[dmshozer1]

I guess my point or question is where do we draw the line?

Yep, thats whats trying to be figured out?? I know in my RO class the point was made very clearly that the RO gives only the range commands.

PERIOD!!!!!!!!!

Flyin

[mhs]

Having participated in, and having observed several unpleasant circustances involving chatty ROs, I try and say nothing but the formal range comands. At club matches with very new shooters I deviate from this at times. At matches above club level the most I deviate is to gesture downrange immediately prior to "Make ready".

I would feel really bad if I said something that was mistaken for "Make ready", and I would need to DQ the shooter.

[Joe4d]

When I am RO'ing I say the shooters name, and then "MAke Ready" I have seen more than one name/scorecard screw up.