How would you handle this?

[bigbrowndog]

If a shooter has a broken gun during a stage, and there is no way to remove possible ammo from the chamber due to the malf. would you DQ that person for leaving a loaded gun and continuing with the stage. Case in point, broken bolt on an AR, broken at the cam pin slot??????? bolt head stays in chamber when you rack bolt carrier to rear.

Also, if a round of ammunition gets jammed up in the action of any gun and cannot be removed but gun cannot be closed, slide, bolt, whatever will not reach its final resting point closed on the chamber, do you DQ the shooter for abandoning the gun and continuing with the course of fire, or should RM/MD take into consideration the special circumstances, and the fact that the gun is inoperable when it was abandoned and is essentially a SAFE gun.

How would you handle it?????????????????? I would like to think that I would make the right call, but would it be the same as you?????????

Trapr

[Sherwyn]

If shooter abondoned the gun, DQ

Shooter is always respnsible for his equipment

Ammo in gun is a loaded gun.

Shooter stops with broken gun - score stage as shot.

Sherwyn

If a shooter has a broken gun during a stage, and there is no way to remove possible ammo from the chamber due to the malf. would you DQ that person for leaving a loaded gun and continuing with the stage. Case in point, broken bolt on an AR, broken at the cam pin slot??????? bolt head stays in chamber when you rack bolt carrier to rear.

Also, if a round of ammunition gets jammed up in the action of any gun and cannot be removed but gun cannot be closed, slide, bolt, whatever will not reach its final resting point closed on the chamber, do you DQ the shooter for abandoning the gun and continuing with the course of fire, or should RM/MD take into consideration the special circumstances, and the fact that the gun is inoperable when it was abandoned and is essentially a SAFE gun.

How would you handle it?????????????????? I would like to think that I would make the right call, but would it be the same as you?????????

Trapr

[Bryan 45]

In my opinion, a safe gun is one pointed in a safe direction and not ready to fire. If a firearm has a malfunction serious enough that it is not in a ready-to-fire state, I would not consider it a hot gun. None of the guns we use in competition have the ability to fire without being in battery, so if a gun is abandoned out of battery (due to a malfunction) I would not consider it a hot gun.

With your analogy of the cam pin breaking and the bolt still being locked in battery w/ a live round in front of it, I would consider that a hot gun. The competitor should call stop instead of continuing and abandoning the gun.

Just my opinions.

Bold was added by edit.

Edited December 9, 2009 by Bryan 45

[outerlimits]

In my opinion, a safe gun is one pointed in a safe direction and not ready to fire. If a firearm has a malfunction serious enough that it is not in a ready-to-fire state, I would not consider it a hot gun. None of the guns we use in competition have the ability to fire without being in battery, so if a gun is abandoned out of battery I would not consider it a hot gun.

that does not mean it's safe. i have seen dq's where an abandoned shotgun had the bolt locked back or jammed with rounds in the mag tube. either safety on or completely empty-period.

[Brian Payne]

As in the Ft. Benning 3-gun shoot. The weapon is to be abandoned in a "safe" condition. Either unloaded or weapon put on safe. In this situation, the weapon should have been able to be put on "safe" and abandoned in a barrel or box. If the weapon was jammed up in such a way that the weapon could not be rendered safe per the rules, then the stage would stop there and scored as shot.

[Doug H.]

Depends on the rules at that match. Some matches allow the gun to be abandoned with ammo on board but safety on. In that case if the safety was applied no DQ. If the match requires a completely empty gun and the competitor cannot empty the gun he will earn a DQ if he abandons it. Tough call but if he cannot safe the gun as required he would have to stop himself to avoid the DQ.

Doug

[Nik Habicht]

Trapr,

what do the match rules say?

[Jack T]

I would not DQ a shooter for any of the incidents of which you refered. I don't know which rules would be governing the situations you refer to, but this is my opinion, not necessarily by the rules.

If the weapon is abandoned into a dump barrel, muzzle down, I would consider this a safe condition, not the weapon is safed, but a safe condition or as long as it is pointed in a safe direction (into a berm) and the shooter does not advance forward of the weapon.

If it is a pistol and the shooter does not advance forward of the weapon system, I don't see a problem there either.

Sometimes common sense has to come into play. I have yet to see an abandoned weapon discharge on its own free will. As long as proper measures have been taken to keep the weapon system physically secured during the course of fire (dump barrel, facing a berm, etc.) I don't see where it poses a safety issue.

I know my opinion is not in accordance with the letter of the law with some organizations, but I don't agree with the rules in this regard.

[Stlhead]

I had this come up at a match this summer. Fortunately it happened when I was running an R.O. after the match before we tore down the stage and was not for score. He was shooting a Sig 556 and was to clear and place it on a table, completely devoid of ammunition ( the next part of the stage was forward of the table). Somehow when he cleared the chamber the round bounced back into the gun and wedged above and behind the bolt locking the action half open. He nor I noticed the round flying back into the weapon or that the bolt was even not fully forward as he laid the gun down with it's port side down. When we where clearing the guns after the COF we discovered the round wedged behind the bolt. The match was over, so nothing to DQ, but would it have been a DQ? I am certan the MD would have not DQ'ed a competitor over it (knowing the match director), but the question remains, devoid of ammunition is just that empty, if a round is stuck in the works, it is not empty?

[Merlin Orr]

As in the Ft. Benning 3-gun shoot. The weapon is to be abandoned in a "safe" condition. Either unloaded or weapon put on safe. In this situation, the weapon should have been able to be put on "safe" and abandoned in a barrel or box. If the weapon was jammed up in such a way that the weapon could not be rendered safe per the rules, then the stage would stop there and scored as shot.

IMO this is the way to go. If "discretion" comes into the equation you can be assured the shooter's view of a jammed or broken "safe" weapon will be different than that of the RO in most cases ...

[SinistralRifleman]

In this situation, the weapon should have been able to be put on "safe" and abandoned in a barrel or box.

In the case of an AK type gun, if the bolt is partially back with a round jammed between the bolt carrier and barrel extension the gun cannot be put on safe.

[M ammo]

This depends on the rules you are running.

Many of us run Outlaw rules.

We do what we want, at the end of the day anyway.

I know that causes some to get hysterical.

And want to put on the Range Nazi range safety hat.

I know at one Nationals I went to the RO's were upset when competitors came up to the stage with their guns in strollers, range flags in the actions and all.

The more experienced multi gun,,,,,RO, I would think you get to the point as, you have just about seen it all at one point of time or another.

You know, what you're looking at when, a competitors gun, goes inop. Usually before the shooter knows, as they are focused on the stage, at hand,, they are fighting many problems at this moment, as and RO I just watch them and the gun, making sure they keep it pointed it the safe direction, and yes that means sometimes I have had to physically guide them. From time to time.

In the local 3Gun match world, monthly match, as long as the gun was in the drop container, and no one had a chance to get in front of the gun during the rest of the stage. I would not DQ the shooter.

If the shooter could not get the gun back into operation, I.E. they could not shoot the gun. The gun may not be clear. But how is it more or less safe than a gun with the safety on? in the drop container!

A DQ should be for a serious safety violation, and they are case by case. The RO and MG, will have to deal with it one step at a time.

I know if you get me nervous,, you have really done something unsafe.

Safe is safe. And reason is reason, it will be up to the RO and the MD. In the outlaw world.

Jim M ammo

[MarkCO]

Depends on the rules at that match. Some matches allow the gun to be abandoned with ammo on board but safety on. In that case if the safety was applied no DQ. If the match requires a completely empty gun and the competitor cannot empty the gun he will earn a DQ if he abandons it. Tough call but if he cannot safe the gun as required he would have to stop himself to avoid the DQ.

Doug

Doug has the right call.

If you don't like the rules, don't shoot the match or convince the MD to change the rules. If the rules are open to discretion, then they are guidelines, not rules.

[Bryan 45]

Since Trapr didn't specify a specific set of rules, I assume this is a question of individual discretion, not rule interpretation.

Am I right, Trapr?

Edited December 9, 2009 by Bryan 45

[Garryowen]

I had something happen that looked like this (I re-created it with a spent shell):

Not a great picture, but the front of the shell is impaled on what looks like the barrel extension (this is all above the bolt). Impossible to engage the safety and at the time it happened I couldn't clear it without tools. This is where tactical training kind of screwed me, my thoughts were that the gun CAN NOT fire/load in that condition, it's going into a tube in the ground...FIGHT THROUGH IT! I had almost finished the stage when they told me to stop, I was DQ'd.

I've been shooting matches for almost 20 years, I should have pulled out the benchmade and dug that sucker out or pretended I was a top shooter and demanded a re-shoot At our match, it would have been a non-issue at best or at worst a stage DQ. I'm not happy I was DQ'd, but I can't complain about the call the staff made. I did in fact leave a live round in the gun with the safety off.

[J.Schmitt]

Great topic to discuss Trapr. I've thought of this in the past.

I think when the majority of shooters attend a match they want to compete. Its tough to compete against someone who times out on a stage because their gun breaks. I would rather compete heads up and loose to a better shooter than beat them because their gun broke. There are so many rules out there to ensure safety. There are rules about guns that go down. I would rather see a re-shoot offered to person whose gun goes down. That ensures safety. No hurry to try and fix a problem that could become a bigger problem.

Jay

[StealthyBlagga]

A big part of our sport is reliability. If your gun breaks, then too bad - the stage is over for you unless you can abandon the gun safely. Sure, it sucks to be that guy, but if the rules are not (1) written first and foremost with safety in mind, and (2) applied equitably, then I don't want to shoot in that match. A while back I shot in a major match where my gun broke towards the end of a stage - "oh well, that's the way the cookie crumbles" I thought, only to discover later that the MD gave a reshoot to another guy with a similar problem on the same stage. When I requested a reshoot on this basis (established precedent), I was denied because I had almost completed the stage whereas the other guy's gun broke after the first shot. WTF IMHO, either everyone gets a reshoot or nobody does.

[Nik Habicht]

IMHO, either everyone gets a reshoot or nobody does.

Consistent application of the rules matters too....

[RiggerJJ]

If a shooter has a broken gun during a stage, and there is no way to remove possible ammo from the chamber due to the malf. would you DQ that person for leaving a loaded gun and continuing with the stage. Case in point, broken bolt on an AR, broken at the cam pin slot??????? bolt head stays in chamber when you rack bolt carrier to rear.

Also, if a round of ammunition gets jammed up in the action of any gun and cannot be removed but gun cannot be closed, slide, bolt, whatever will not reach its final resting point closed on the chamber, do you DQ the shooter for abandoning the gun and continuing with the course of fire, or should RM/MD take into consideration the special circumstances, and the fact that the gun is inoperable when it was abandoned and is essentially a SAFE gun.

How would you handle it?????????????????? I would like to think that I would make the right call, but would it be the same as you?????????

Trapr

Most matches allow for abandon guns to be loaded on safe, so I would allow (even encourage) the shooter to safely abandon the broken gun and transition. As for the special circumstance of rounds in the gun but not being able to empty it or put it on safe because it is broken, again safely abandon it and transition. this also mandates utilizing a SAFE abandon barrel/trash bucket with the MUZZLE POINTED DOWN! (long guns or pistol)

jj

[J.Schmitt]

We have many rules. Rules such as procedurals for being over a line and shooting. Safety rules such as the 180. Abandoned gun rules for transition to a second or third weapon. The abandonment rules attempt to provide for safety. Define what is safe. Everyone has a different opinion. My duty handgun is a Sig, no safety, I consider it safe/secure as it sits in my holster or rather as it is abandoned in my holster "hot". We are of course competing and striving for a perfect safety record. Aside from a written rule, is not a gun that is broken or inoperable, safety on or off depending on malfunction, and deposited in a barrel or a box with the muzzle down a "safe" gun. Any gun in a barrel should not be considered a safe gun even with an empty chamber and safety on. All guns are considered loaded all the time as per one commanding rules of gun safety. Are we not putting guns in a barrel or a handgun box that is positioned in a certain manner so that in the deposit phase were it to go off the round would go downrange or into the ground. Without a person to operate the gun is the gun itself not "safe". The above listed items are true as they are based in reality but do run contrary to many written rules.

Now I understand that a gun dumped in a barrel with a round in the chamber and no safety engaged is earning a DQ.

This topic is making me think.

I am still a proponent of a re-shoot due to a disabled gun. Good RO's should be able to see when a gun is more than jammed.

Jay

[bigbrowndog]

Sorry for not getting back sooner and answering your questions...............

I am not referencing any particular matchs rules, simply asking what would you do if this type situation occured, Yes it would be nice if the rules addressed it specifically, but many do not!!!

My personal thoughts are, is the gun in a safe condition!!!!!!! not on SAFE, but has it been rendered unfireable. We are able to toss revolvers and striker fired weapons into dump boxes, willy nilly without regard for "safeties" yet if you pulled the trigger they would go bang if they were loaded. My definition of a gun in a safe condition has changed the more I shoot matches.......... I now regard any gun sitting by itself undisturbed to be "SAFE", that said, for use in a match and for the purposes of this thread, If you can pick up the gun and without doing anything else pull the trigger and it goes bang then it is not in a SAFE condition, that includes striker fired guns!!!!!!! UNLESS, you take RM3G's approach and have the gun in a container that keeps the muzzle pointed away from shooters and spectators, at which point the gun is "safe" until someone picks it up it is then that "accidents" can happen. So did the shooter abandon the gun in a safe condition using RM3G's approach????

IMO,........YES.

As to the broken bolt carrier in the AR with possibly a live round in the chamber, if the bolt carrier is to the rear its going to be very hard for the live round to go off, considering the firing pin is still attached to the carrier. It should still be able to be placed on safe however. with the gun out of battery a 1911 would not!!!! nor would a AK variant, and yet we have no issues with striker fired guns going HOT into boxes and walking away from them, would an intact 1911 receive the same consideration given the working grip safety?????????? Would a pump shotgun with the action open????

Perhaps the only considerations that should be used are "safe condition"(unfireable) or empty (devoid of ammo), or placed in a dump container that has been secured in a safe location by the MD/RM, and controls the direction of the guns muzzle.

Trapr

[Bryan 45]

Anyone have a picture of what RM3g uses for their handgun boxes? A .50 cal ammo can w/ a towel in it, attached to a table or barrel so that it can't be knocked over would work pretty well to keep the muzzle pointed at the ground, wouldn't it?

[bigbrowndog]

Bryan. I remember them as a mop bucket buried in the ground with just the top few inches out of the ground, so your muzzle stays pointed at the ground and it doesn't get knocked around.

Trapr

Edited December 10, 2009 by bigbrowndog

[RiggerJJ]

oval shaped with a piece of foam for the trigger guard & grip to rest on to keep the muzzle pointed down...

Long guns; VERTICAL 35 gallon trash can. if you want you can add a ramp inside like they did at the 3G Nats to keep the muzzle toward downrange.

jj

I should have added that the pistol bucket above will not disengage a thumb safety (unless you really try).

Way back when we (3 gunners) started doing multi-gun stages the flat box was used for abandoning pistols. right away we (3 gunners) realized that the flat box was NOT the best answer. Why do some matches continue to use flat boxes now???

Edited December 11, 2009 by RiggerJJ

[whiskey1]

Referencing the Glock vs. 1911 argument, I think the only reason that we require folks to engage the safety on 1911 type guns is that they have them. A 1911 with a working grip safety is just as safe as any Glock.