Gary Stevens Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 If there is a true desire for fully loaded Production guns, then I suggest you run a few IPSC matches, under IPSC rules, and see how it flys. With our dual track system you can do either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Hefta Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 Production is by far the fastest growing Division up here in MN and across our great nation , so the USPSA and IPSC are doing something right, never fix something that isn't broke. Nobody said it was broken. but how about an improvement? I just hope that they never change the 10 round cap rule, like I said before I have a tough time counting past 10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SA Friday Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 Production is by far the fastest growing Division up here in MN and across our great nation , so the USPSA and IPSC are doing something right, never fix something that isn't broke. Nobody said it was broken. but how about an improvement? Improvement? no. I've said it before and will say it again; seen more than one M class Limited/Open shooter get their butt handed to them by a B class shooter when they switch to production. Tougher triggers, more reloads, different stage shooting sequences... Different flavor to the same game. Don't change what's thriving. It would be like spraying round-up on your crops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirty whiteboy Posted September 22, 2009 Author Share Posted September 22, 2009 If there is a true desire for fully loaded Production guns, then I suggest you run a few IPSC matches, under IPSC rules, and see how it flys. With our dual track system you can do either. Thanks Gary, good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirty whiteboy Posted September 22, 2009 Author Share Posted September 22, 2009 (edited) Improvement? no.I've said it before and will say it again; seen more than one M class Limited/Open shooter get their butt handed to them by a B class shooter when they switch to production. Tougher triggers, more reloads, different stage shooting sequences... Different flavor to the same game. Don't change what's thriving. It would be like spraying round-up on your crops. So they got their butt's handed to them because they were limited to 10 rd guns? Or they fact that they had to run a Production gun. The same guys would still probably get their butt's handed to them even if they could stuff 7 or 8 more bullets in a mag. IPSC sees it as a fair race, why wouldn't USPSA? Edited September 22, 2009 by dirty whiteboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 (edited) FWIW, I don't have the funds, or my current funds are already earmarked for other things, so a $1,500 plus plus STI .40 cal limited race gun is out of the picture. For now. So I shoot my Beretta 92 in Limited at minor power factor with the MecGar 20 round mags. There was one "local" club match where I won Limited...yeah....shooting minor. Or I least I was. I think I am shooting single stack now...(aka Limited 8 ) Edited September 22, 2009 by Chills1994 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 (edited) I say leave it minor and load'm up boys. That is the way the come from the factory right? JT Well, unfortunately there a bunch of people (myself included) who bought guns and mags during the restriction and all of those are 10 round mags. Removing the 10 round limit would force people like myself to dump a bunch more money into new mags (~40.00 a pop x 5 mags = $200.00 for CZ mags) to be competitive. I think that would hurt the division and like Brittin said, it's growing "as is". You can grab a gun you bought a few years ago and go. The gun/mags are on a level playing field with brand new toys. There's a flip side to that SLM... new shooters must buy a shitload of mags they would otherwise not need just to have enough to compete. If we are really talking about growing the sport then we have to take that into account too. The initial cost goes up if a new guy/gal has to buy 6-7 mags/pouches instead of 3-4. We already have you hooked. (kidding) Edited September 22, 2009 by JThompson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfie Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 If a Production gun was allowed to run at capacity and the ammo was scored in Major/Minor then what would be the differneces between Production and Limited? Seems to me the differnces would break down to holster type, mag position and maybe overall mag length. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLM Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 I say leave it minor and load'm up boys. That is the way the come from the factory right? JT Well, unfortunately there a bunch of people (myself included) who bought guns and mags during the restriction and all of those are 10 round mags. Removing the 10 round limit would force people like myself to dump a bunch more money into new mags (~40.00 a pop x 5 mags = $200.00 for CZ mags) to be competitive. I think that would hurt the division and like Brittin said, it's growing "as is". You can grab a gun you bought a few years ago and go. The gun/mags are on a level playing field with brand new toys. There's a flip side to that SLM... new shooters must buy a shitload of mags they would otherwise not need just to have enough to compete. If we are really talking about growing the sport then we have to take that into account too. The initial cost goes up if a new guy/gal has to buy 6-7 mags/pouches instead of 3-4. The flip flip side is that a new gun usually comes with 2 mags (some more). IMO, you can be very competitive in Production with 5 mags the way it is. Buy a new gun and 3 mags and you are ready to go. I don't think you need 6 or 7 pouches. Three is just fine. Four is better but not necessary to get a good start. Three on the belt, start mag out of the pocket and your good to go. If you have standard capacity mags (I hate calling them high capacity 'cuz they aren't) just put 11 rounds in the "pocket" mag and you automatically Barney up. I guess it's really a toss up. Guys with older ban mags would have to buy 3 or 4 new mags, people buying new guns need to buy two or three. No matter what, somebody is gonna have to spend money. We already have you hooked. (kidding) LOL! Actually you ain't kidding!! I just traded one of my Open blasters for a Limited gun. I had an odd number of Open guns, now I have an odd number of Limited guns. This just can't end well!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokshwn Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 JT, Come on, are you seriously arguing the cost of mag pouches for production? Two double mag pouches from Fobus, Bladetech, Uncle Mikes etc put you out what $30-$40 bucks, a similar brand holster for $25 and we are talking a full blown production rig for $65...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricBudd Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 I say leave it minor and load'm up boys. That is the way the come from the factory right? JT Well, unfortunately there a bunch of people (myself included) who bought guns and mags during the restriction and all of those are 10 round mags. Removing the 10 round limit would force people like myself to dump a bunch more money into new mags (~40.00 a pop x 5 mags = $200.00 for CZ mags) to be competitive. I think that would hurt the division and like Brittin said, it's growing "as is". You can grab a gun you bought a few years ago and go. The gun/mags are on a level playing field with brand new toys. Off topic, but get the MecGar mags for the CZ. They are just as good as the factory magazines and cost $20 to $25. If you like the 10 round magazines, check out the brass replacemnts for the plastic base that Angus sells. Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 I say leave it minor and load'm up boys. That is the way the come from the factory right? JT Then everybody would be rushing out to buy XDMs... I LIKE the 10-round limit in Production. If I'm at a fun-shoot, and wanna go nuts, I slap on an extension, and load 24-25 in my M&P. Limited-Minor. Now.... I DO think they should allow 9mm in Limited if it makes PF... like they do in Open. I'd shoot 9mm Major out of my M&P with mag extensions and no optics... My M&P Pro shoot 9-Major ammo just fine... JeffWard So you'd object to changes that would cause everyone in Production to buy new XDM's but you'd be okay with a change that would cause everyone in Limited to have to have new guns built or current guns rebuilt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadeslade Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 I love the game of Production Division now. The 10rd limit lets all kinds of guns play, it is extremely challenging in terms of movement and reloads, and it is working. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUKE Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Production is by far the fastest growing Division up here in MN and across our great nation , so the USPSA and IPSC are doing something right, never fix something that isn't broke. Once in a while I shoot Limited for fun with my G34 I still end up dropping my mags like I am shooting Production, I guess I can't count past 10. +1 Besides I did not know Glock 17 rounder's held more than 10! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lugnut Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 (edited) In addition to the fact that as I said "std" cap mags aren't available in several states (ok I know about Open and Limited) but more delusion of divisions. Locally Open, Limited and Production are very strong... Production has been getting the most competition (in numbers) compared to other divisions lately. If we were to enhance something I'd hope it would strengthen some of the other division. And again.. if you want to shoot your Production gun with std cap mags- it's fine in Limited- minor OR major. Edited September 22, 2009 by lugnut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 There are a number of guns that can play equitably in Production under the current 10-round limit, despite other less-than-ideal characteristics. That's a very positive effect. If we remove the 10-round limit, many of them would be at a severe disadvantage thus causing another equipment race. I'd hate to see that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Hefta Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 I love the game of Production Division now. The 10rd limit lets all kinds of guns play, it is extremely challenging in terms of movement and reloads, and it is working. +100 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 There are lots of reasons to avoid the capacity race in Production. Previous shooters investments, legal restrictions, rules stability, and the skills learned from Produciton. Right now there are literally dozens of guns that would be competetive at the top level in Production. The top 16 results from the last couple years do an excellent job showing this. Top shooters with Glock, CZ, Beretta, Sig, Para, Smith & Wesson and different models of each gun. Most folks shoot 9mm in Production but there are also people that shoot .40, .357 Sig, .45 etc. If you open up the capacity restriction you will see the other calibers go away almost completely if you still score minor, just like IPSC. If you go Major/Minor time and again we've seen the advantage of Major. Look to Limited and Single Stack for examples of how the couple extra rounds don't work out to an advantage shooting minor. I would prefer not to take the majority of guns on the Production list and make them obsolete. Also if you allow high caps, what is high cap? Is it the manufacturers spec for the magazine? What you can fit into a factory modified tube? What you can stuff into an unmodified tube? What fits in the box, i.e. IPSC Standard? Who monitors the round count? The RO? Does he have to know the capacity for each and every mag for every gun on the list or do they just have to measure? I'm not making this stuff up. These are all questions that IPSC has had to, and are still dealing with, in Production with high cap mags. They also have issues with approving certain guns with extended base pads, like CZ, Sig and Grand Power. USPSA has really simplified this portion of the division. I shoot Production because I like the challenge of the accuracy, the additional strategy of the reloads and I get to use my favorite platform gun and still be very competetive. I would prefer to avoid any of these suggested changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbbean Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 I have this idea for new device that will revolutionize transportation. You start out with a round disc of stone, wood, rubber, or metal... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 I agree with the consensus. Leave production alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IL-SIG Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Leave Production alone. The 10-round limit creates an interesting aspect that makes the strategy of how a competitor attacks a stage a lot of fun! Also, keeping minor PF is another aspect that I like. It makes shooting As that much more important. Shooting a C costs you 40% of the possible points - certainly makes accuracy very important! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wideload Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 After the last stirring of USPSA Production rules earlier in the year... (and the strong opinons that came up) why make changes again... Seriously, I think the rules as they are set up provides a level - consistent - playing field regardless of what part of the country you reside and if you travel to or from a state with mag capacity restrictions, the game is not going to change on you. We got some clarity on modifications allowed and still play in the division. I am of the opinion that, it's working pretty well and we should leave it alone for a few years. ****************** Having stated the above, if one was to make changes, I would propose collapsing Single Stack and Production, (and Maybe even Limited 10) to a Stock Gun Division. * Have Major/Minor Scoring with magazine capacity restrictions as outlined in Single Stack rules 8 Major/10 Minor * Holster and Mag placement as outlined in Production Rules. * Define the magazines requirements as they need to fit the profile of OEM units with allowances for unweighted basepads * Permit any modifications as outlined in Single stack rules (Including the Box Requirement) This way you can shoot your .45ACP Sig 220s and Gen 3 S&Ws if that is what you got, side by side with 1911s, OR Browning Hi-Powers next to CZs, M&Ps and Glocks for a heads up stock gun competition. ******************* I know the above is a bit of a drift... so back to the original discussion on whether or not to permit loading magazines to full capacity for USPSA Production Division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobMoore Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 The formula for Production works. I would hate to see a change in the mag capacity or allowing major PF to affect it negatively, which I think it would. One of the challenges to Production is working in all those reloads. If that isn't working out for you, there is nothing stopping you from loading up and shooting Limited. Also, 9mm out of the box semi-autos have a good home in Production. Allow major PF, and now we have to share what was a nice house with a big overbearing roommate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 (edited) I'm not advocating any sort of change here... (As I already said once or twice) If it were up to me I would have never allowed striker fired guns in production. With some trigger work you got basically a 3-4lb trigger that is the same every pull and no safety. Everyone gets excited like something we talk about here is going to make a change in how things are done... We're just some guys sitting around an internet gunshop solving the problems of the world. Does anyone really care what we say anyway? I doubt it... JT Edited September 23, 2009 by JThompson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirty whiteboy Posted September 23, 2009 Author Share Posted September 23, 2009 I'm not advocating any sort of change here... (As I already said once or twice) If it were up to me I would have never allowed striker fired guns in production. With some trigger work you got basically a 3-4lb trigger that is the same every pull and no safety. Everyone gets excited like something we talk about here is going to make a change in how things are done... We're just some guys sitting around an internet gunshop solving the problems of the world. Does anyone really care what we say anyway? I doubt it... JT Really, It's not like I said I'm going to petition for a rule change. I did not intend to start a divison war. Just tossing around some ideas and getting some input. Try not to be offended. ................................ as motorcycle riders claim, it's not what you ride, it's that you ride. ........It's not what/where you shoot, it's that you shoot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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