Dan Burwell Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 What Collecting A's is talking about is the house stage. from what I heard afte the first squad shot they added no-shoots to the tree so the popper couldn't be shot over the tree. Later after several more squads shot they then added a forbiden action of engaging the tree from the doorway. Apparently several squads found they could still engage the popper from under the tree from the door mainly it was the supper squad that had figured this out. By shooting the popper from the door rather than the window you save at least 1.5 seconds probably 2 by eliminating a shooting position. The gripe comes from them changing it and not requiring anyone to reshoot it that had previously done the newly forbiden action. In re-reading the rule book I see it is not required to have anyone reshoot it unless it is one competitors actions that brought about the forbiden action. This is my understanding of what went down, certainly not facts. If anyone that worked the stage could explain it better I would love to hear what really happened. (I am not trying to be an a$$ just wondering the truth) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A62335 Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 This was the first match I had shot that was not a club level match, and frankly, I was disappointed. The staff and RO's were great, the cold water at every stage was much appreciated, and the porta-pottys were everywhere, which was convenient. I didn't mind the heat and dust, but I'm from NV so I guess I'm just used to it. The stages themselves were the letdown. I wish the round count would have been higher. Shooting a 12 round course of fire just doesn't do it for me. The lack of standards was disappointing, and the target arrays were boring. Throw in some disappearing targets at least. What is the point of a target activated by a popper when you can just shoot that popper and come back to the target 5 or 10 seconds later? Still though, I had a blast, and will go again next year if it is on the west coast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Nationals needs an M- or GM-class gamer to physically walk all the stages before the match and fix the obvious problem areas; the tree, the hardcover star, etc. Ten minutes into the stage preview time it was clear everybody was going to try and shoot through the tree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davecutts Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 The tree was a no brainer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boz1911 Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Pro's: Staying in Vegas where there's lots to do and see. Also plenty of hotel choices. The Match staff was excellent with fair scoring and quick turnarounds. Weather was very bearable. Water available all the time. Con's: Very few stages had any imagination in their design. F-ing richochets!!! Having stage one thrown out of the Limited Nat's from what I gather, an added 180. Dust and blowing dust. Only 16 stages, less than 300 rounds on the Limited end. My god, we just shot 191 rounds at a local match. Like last year, no where to put your range bag at a stage. Late start at the Limited registration. A lot a people got tired of standing for an additional hour. Some people did not get a second T-shirt for the back half of the week. For crying out loud, 270.00 and it's too much trouble to give somone a T-shirt? Nachos anyone? Overall, I didn't like the Nationals this year as much as shooting in the mud last year at a far superior facility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMS42 Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 This was my 3rd Nationals. The first was in 1988 at Barry, the second at Missoula. In some respects this was the worst of them. In some respects the best. In 1988 I didn't mind the long walk from the parking area to the stages, in 2007 I could just about make it, but my hips were now shot for the day. This year I got to park close to the stages and didn't have to walk far. I like to shoot in competition no matter how bad I do. One of these years I hope to shoot at Nationals what I am able to do else where. I finished this year about the same as 2007 -- down near the very bottom. In 2007 it was gun problems, this year I managed to earn 3 FTE's, each with their own story. I would have liked to have some standards. I'd like some longer shots. I'd like some longer stages. I don't like memory stages. I'd like some place to sit down -- some stages I wasn't able, some my back and hips were hurting so bad that rather than do more than a simple run through I just sat if I could. I may have been able to do better with more time spend doing run throughs. Next time I won't forget my own chair. I'd like to see more vendors. If they are charged for the vendor tents, then maybe lowering the fees might bring more vendors and the same amount of money. There needs to be a way for the vendors to be able to tell that the internet sale is a result of having a tent or table at the Nationals. I will probably order a gun, but will find some way to tell whoever I buy the gun from that sale resulted from them being at the Nationals. Overall it wasn't too bad, but it could have been better. 3 or 4 lines at sign in would be nice. Better food at the Awards or none at all. I had just had a prime rib dinner so I just looked at what was there and passed. Make the people in back sit down, that will cut down on the chatter. Some of us were at least mildly interested in what the people in front were saying. Start on time! If the staff for some reason can't start on time find some way to let people know. How about a room at the Match hotel were people can get match info and view score sheets? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turboprop Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 How about a vendor area at the match hotel. Most conventions have a vendor area at the hotel and hold there dinners, auctions, awards, meet and greets, etc. in those area's. If you are going to shoot over three or four days lets get the round count up there to make the trip worth while. This was my second Nationals (Tulsa 2008 being my first) and I think next year I will just throw in a couple extra area match's for the same cost of going to Nats. and shoot twice as many stages. (Who am I kidding if I have the time and money I will be going to Nationals!!!!) One thing I really didn't agree with in last years and this years nationals is the top 15 shooters being allowed to go to the prize table before the class winners. Why do we have class winners at all if we do not recognize them first at the prize table. Of course the top 15 will be GM & maybe a master class shooter. If you are a GM who placed 15th in your class I can't see where you deserve any more recognition than the "C" class shooter who placed 15th in his. Send the class winners to the Prize table first then go by order of finish. For folks who have said we should get a new group to design stages and run Nationals I say be carefull of what you ask for. Those folks donate tons of there time and efforts with no reward what so ever so that you can have the best match possible to shoot. I am sure if you would like to volunteer your time and talents they would be more than happy to put you to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPatterson Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 As a member of the RO staff I would like to thank everyone for their attendance and may have already shaken your hand. I am sure that your comments here will receive lots of discussion before next years Nationals. Disappearing targets were mentioned which as a lower class shooter I seldom get a shot off and upper class shooters may decide the time is not worth it so targets get reset that no one shoots at. I would rather see something like a clamshell or beartrap that gives the shooter options and rewards skill. As for better stages it is a matter of space available on the range and having stages to choose from. Range Masters usually see a range in advance but for this match ranges were still being built the day CRO's were setting targets. In 2007 we had a small staff match to shoot some stages that the RM thought might get gamed or could present a safety problem, there was no time to do that this year nor was it done last year. I too had problems with the Awards Ceremonies (I was at both) but mostly with the noise of all the people talking with old friends and not respecting the speakers at the podium. Yes the Limited Ceremony started late but there is that rule requirement for an hour after final scores are posted for scores to be challenged and that was done at the range in case a reshoot was required. The first thing I did after I was allowed to leave the range was to shower and have an adult beverage or two or three and I would allow the staff at the range the same opportunity. I too would like to get to the prize table sooner but as a C class shooter (if I could ever win my class) that finished 150th I don't think I should go before someone that finished 10th or 15th. If I want to go the prize table sooner then I should make the effort/practice to learn to shoot better. Only my thoughts and opinions and do not reflect those of my sponsor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokshwn Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 One thing I really didn't agree with in last years and this years nationals is the top 15 shooters being allowed to go to the prize table before the class winners. Why do we have class winners at all if we do not recognize them first at the prize table. Of course the top 15 will be GM & maybe a master class shooter. If you are a GM who placed 15th in your class I can't see where you deserve any more recognition than the "C" class shooter who placed 15th in his. Send the class winners to the Prize table first then go by order of finish. The reason the GM in your scenario above should go to the prize table before the C shooter is that the GM is finished 170 places ahead of C class shooter in the match. (Using 09 limited results) The recognition comes from the awards and/or trophies. Now answer this one.....Why should a shooter in 117th place (top C limited) go to the table before a GM who finished 17th (first spot out of the top 16) ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Good post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 If you read Collecting A's post he was talking about how the stages were changed after the match was underway.I agree about the smaller stages lacking something, they had the same target array on 3 of them(3 targets on one stand with a no-shoot in the middle) with a few pieces of steel. Ypu might have been shooting classifiers-to-be..... For a few years in Barry, we were shooting three small all steel stages in the same pit --- some of those wound up being released as classifiers..... I know they are pushing to get new classifiers so this could well be the case.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Nationals needs an M- or GM-class gamer to physically walk all the stages before the match and fix the obvious problem areas; the tree, the hardcover star, etc. Ten minutes into the stage preview time it was clear everybody was going to try and shoot through the tree. You and Me next year Shred. We'll go game the hell out of them for a few days and in the process have the stages wired! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 One thing I really didn't agree with in last years and this years nationals is the top 15 shooters being allowed to go to the prize table before the class winners. Why do we have class winners at all if we do not recognize them first at the prize table. Of course the top 15 will be GM & maybe a master class shooter. If you are a GM who placed 15th in your class I can't see where you deserve any more recognition than the "C" class shooter who placed 15th in his. Send the class winners to the Prize table first then go by order of finish. The reason the GM in your scenario above should go to the prize table before the C shooter is that the GM is finished 170 places ahead of C class shooter in the match. (Using 09 limited results) The recognition comes from the awards and/or trophies. Now answer this one.....Why should a shooter in 117th place (top C limited) go to the table before a GM who finished 17th (first spot out of the top 16) ? Hey, guys. Can we table the prize table discussion? We have a metric ton of threads around here on the subject. A quick search should keep everyone content reading those flame wars for at least a few weeks. Thanks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokshwn Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Mark, Sorry my bad....just couldn't help myself. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glock_40_caliber Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 What Collecting A's is talking about is the house stage. from what I heard afte the first squad shot they added no-shoots to the tree so the popper couldn't be shot over the tree. Later after several more squads shot they then added a forbiden action of engaging the tree from the doorway. Apparently several squads found they could still engage the popper from under the tree from the door mainly it was the supper squad that had figured this out. By shooting the popper from the door rather than the window you save at least 1.5 seconds probably 2 by eliminating a shooting position. The gripe comes from them changing it and not requiring anyone to reshoot it that had previously done the newly forbiden action. In re-reading the rule book I see it is not required to have anyone reshoot it unless it is one competitors actions that brought about the forbiden action. This is my understanding of what went down, certainly not facts. If anyone that worked the stage could explain it better I would love to hear what really happened. (I am not trying to be an a$$ just wondering the truth) Actually, it was the second or third squad through that began to shoot the popper under/around/through the tree. This would not have been a problem, except when the shooter did not shoot well enough to miss the tree, but still was able to knock down the popper after putting a hole in the prop. So, for everyone that tried to shoot it that way, but went through the tree to hit the popper, they had to reshoot the stage. After the third squad I believe it was that went through, and having to reshoot half of that squad, the no shoots were put in place, to try to keep the stage moving. However, shooters being what we are, and trying to shave as many seconds off the clock as possible, started shooting through the other side of the tree. This brought about the forbiden action that was added to the WSB. Time contstraints did not allow for everyone to reshoot the stage that had shot it before the forbiden action was put into place, as the first 10 squads had already shot the stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zerwas Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 As a member of the RO staff I would like to thank everyone for their attendance and may have already shaken your hand. I am sure that your comments here will receive lots of discussion before next years Nationals. Disappearing targets were mentioned which as a lower class shooter I seldom get a shot off and upper class shooters may decide the time is not worth it so targets get reset that no one shoots at. I would rather see something like a clamshell or beartrap that gives the shooter options and rewards skill. As for better stages it is a matter of space available on the range and having stages to choose from. Range Masters usually see a range in advance but for this match ranges were still being built the day CRO's were setting targets. In 2007 we had a small staff match to shoot some stages that the RM thought might get gamed or could present a safety problem, there was no time to do that this year nor was it done last year.I too had problems with the Awards Ceremonies (I was at both) but mostly with the noise of all the people talking with old friends and not respecting the speakers at the podium. Yes the Limited Ceremony started late but there is that rule requirement for an hour after final scores are posted for scores to be challenged and that was done at the range in case a reshoot was required. The first thing I did after I was allowed to leave the range was to shower and have an adult beverage or two or three and I would allow the staff at the range the same opportunity. I too would like to get to the prize table sooner but as a C class shooter (if I could ever win my class) that finished 150th I don't think I should go before someone that finished 10th or 15th. If I want to go the prize table sooner then I should make the effort/practice to learn to shoot better. Only my thoughts and opinions and do not reflect those of my sponsor. I want to thank YOU Leroy for holding on to my pistol rug when I shot your stage. It brought me luck. It was also very good to meet you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlmiller1 Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 (edited) OOPS!!! Never mind! Skip one post & you miss the important stuff! MLM Edited September 24, 2009 by mlmiller1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokshwn Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 Mark, Check out post # 63 above Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barry Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 15th Nationals , Things I learned at first and fallow to this day. Skip shooters meeting (Bla bla bla ,180 trap, bla bla bla,shoot thru, bla bla bla) Don't expect Gee wiz stages (400 shooters with limmited time to reshoot 20 people) Always one RO who Has Athori-tay(Cartman) that must be respected !!!! (stage 11 open) Awards,Show up ,look for squad mates/Past squad mates , say hey,nice shooting,Find bar ,come back 1Hr later for prizes if you did well enough to get something worth the wait. Above all Best way to spend vacation Shoot 6 stages,Drink,Talk about shooting Shoot 6 stages,Drink,Talk about shooting Shoot 6 stages,Drink,Talk about shooting Wouldent miss it. Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrShooter Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 It was my 3rd Nationals, L-10 in MT, SS in PASA, and L in LV. Cons: Only shooting 15 stages--they tossed stage 1 before I got there. With the "break", plus not shooting Stage 1, and catching up to the supersquad (our 8 man squad could shoot a stage faster than then they could load and make ready , it was a 2+ hour break. The vendors were awol during this time too. $10 burger and chips. Pros: Got to watch the supersquad while we were on our break. Got the story directly from L winner on why he shot his limited gun in Open, and ended up making a practice run cause the stages were practically identical (Production gun went down just before the match). $10 burger and chips were served by cute girls. So, to answer the OP, yes it's worth it if you can do it. LV helps with motivating the SO, so I hope USPSA lets this ride for a little while. October might be better though; we were lucky it was "cooler" and barely into triple digits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDean Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 Pros: Got to watch the supersquad while we were on our break. Got the story directly from L winner on why he shot his limited gun in Open, and ended up making a practice run cause the stages were practically identical (Production gun went down just before the match). Taking nothing away from Ted's awesome performance, he shot very well at the Open match (18th with a iron sighted gun?), but I agree, the lack of stage alteration between matches could certainly benefit those who shot it once already. Having identical stages, with an altered 180, probably attributed to stage 1 being tossed as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z-man Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 (edited) I thought the match itself wasn't very impressive. A round count of 306 rounds (limited) and only 16 stages (with one dropped) didn't make the nationals any different than most area matches. I would think that for the money, talent, staff, etc. at the match that people would walk away with a pretty unique experience. The stages themselves didn't challenge in the same way that last year's did (shorter distances, less activated or moving targets, less steel). It was as if once all the stages where up someone walked it and realized that it would be a hoze-fest so they threw as many no-shoots out as they could. After talking with several people that have shot alot of international matches, I just think that the nationals should be something that "wows" people and is a step above anything else out there. Like I said, in terms of stages (design, round count, and number-16), vendors, pomp-and-circumstance, the nationals felt like just another area match. And by the way, who gave the old guy at the entrance to the range a speed-detecting radar!! As for good things, the staff was great, the location has a lot to offer, and it was nice not to be stuck in the rain. Not sure who it was at the Lim/lim-10/rev awards that gave the speech about the need for young blood in the RO and staff cadre, but I think he hit the nail on the head. In order to create a truly awesome nationals a lot of work and effort is needed (that isn't to say that staff or ro's there didn't do a great job). Edited September 29, 2009 by Z-man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadeslade Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 15th Nationals , Things I learned at first and fallow to this day.Skip shooters meeting (Bla bla bla ,180 trap, bla bla bla,shoot thru, bla bla bla) Don't expect Gee wiz stages (400 shooters with limmited time to reshoot 20 people) Always one RO who Has Athori-tay(Cartman) that must be respected !!!! (stage 11 open) Awards,Show up ,look for squad mates/Past squad mates , say hey,nice shooting,Find bar ,come back 1Hr later for prizes if you did well enough to get something worth the wait. Above all Best way to spend vacation Shoot 6 stages,Drink,Talk about shooting Shoot 6 stages,Drink,Talk about shooting Shoot 6 stages,Drink,Talk about shooting Wouldent miss it. Barry I think this about says it all. Great post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiny Warrior Posted September 30, 2009 Share Posted September 30, 2009 our 8 man squad could shoot a stage faster than then they could load and make ready , Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAZZ Posted September 30, 2009 Share Posted September 30, 2009 Wow. I was hesitant to post what I thought about the match in fear of hurting someone's feelings, but I have nothing to add that hasn't been said already. Bottom line--I had more fun in Tulsa in the mud. That being said, thank you to the staff and everyone else involved for your time and effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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