caspian guy Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 What are the chances that this whole thread is another of Trapper's pot stirring efforts? If so, he knocked it out of the park. Could be and if so... I am always glad to do my part Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chendersby Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Outlaw Multigun is really not likely to follow IPSC's preference for Open and Limited. So hash this thread out to 10 or 20 or 30 pages but I don't see any changes in the near or even distance future. Kelly USPSA also is not going to follow IPSC either on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted August 31, 2009 Author Share Posted August 31, 2009 So what have we learned from this thread,.............................................Nobody likes to hear talk about thier division being done away with, or drastically changed, no matter what the participation level or perceived level of competition!!!! Its been a giant brainstorming session, where no idea is rejected no matter how stupid it may be perceived. I'd like to think that it has stimulated some thought among MD's and given others a viewpoint that they may not have had before reading this topic. Trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el pres Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 (edited) So what have we learned from this thread,.............................................Nobody likes to hear talk about thier division being done away with, or drastically changed, no matter what the participation level or perceived level of competition!!!!Its been a giant brainstorming session, where no idea is rejected no matter how stupid it may be perceived. I'd like to think that it has stimulated some thought among MD's and given others a viewpoint that they may not have had before reading this topic. Trapr Proffessor Trapr, I believe that Mr. KeurtM and yourself are just really bored at times when there's no match to win !! Edited August 31, 2009 by P.Pres Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted August 31, 2009 Author Share Posted August 31, 2009 Well i couldn't do a POLL!!!! trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Bond Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Outlaw Multigun is really not likely to follow IPSC's preference for Open and Limited. So hash this thread out to 10 or 20 or 30 pages but I don't see any changes in the near or even distance future. Kelly USPSA also is not going to follow IPSC either on this one. +100 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokshwn Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DyNo! Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 I agree with the article. I'm a 20 year old college student and I can afford an AR and ammo but not $1,000 to dump on glass when it could go into ammo or even another rifle. (or books ) I'm going to a three gun match soon and I chose to remove my EOTech because I'd be getting slammed by people with long range variable optics when it comes time for shots hundreds of yards away. It's pointless to shoot an Aimpoint or EOtech against someone with a variable power scope when my dot fully obscures a plate at 100 yards . My cheap EOTech will continue to come off for matches unless we see a new division or aggregate... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el pres Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 I agree with the article. I'm a 20 year old college student and I can afford an AR and ammo but not $1,000 to dump on glass when it could go into ammo or even another rifle. (or books ) I'm going to a three gun match soon and I chose to remove my EOTech because I'd be getting slammed by people with long range variable optics when it comes time for shots hundreds of yards away. It's pointless to shoot an Aimpoint or EOtech against someone with a variable power scope when my dot fully obscures a plate at 100 yards . My cheap EOTech will continue to come off for matches unless we see a new division or aggregate... I was done with this thread but ahhh hell, here you go !! http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=186660 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caspian guy Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 I agree with the article. I'm a 20 year old college student and I can afford an AR and ammo but not $1,000 to dump on glass when it could go into ammo or even another rifle. (or books ) I'm going to a three gun match soon and I chose to remove my EOTech because I'd be getting slammed by people with long range variable optics when it comes time for shots hundreds of yards away. It's pointless to shoot an Aimpoint or EOtech against someone with a variable power scope when my dot fully obscures a plate at 100 yards . My cheap EOTech will continue to come off for matches unless we see a new division or aggregate... By the way usable variables need not be expensive. I used a weaver 1-3 for a couple of years and it worked pretty well for me. (I bought it used... I doubt I paid more than $100 for it.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxshooter Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 While we are making changes, lets add a MOR Division, manually operated rifle, 1911 max 8 rounds in mag and pump shotgun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan 45 Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Awww, man, you mean the party is over?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted August 31, 2009 Author Share Posted August 31, 2009 Actually wouldn't manually operated require a revolver??????? what they do in IPSC is require only one round per target with rifle but mags are limited to 5 rds, I think! Trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
00bullitt Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 I agree with the article. I'm a 20 year old college student and I can afford an AR and ammo but not $1,000 to dump on glass when it could go into ammo or even another rifle. (or books ) I'm going to a three gun match soon and I chose to remove my EOTech because I'd be getting slammed by people with long range variable optics when it comes time for shots hundreds of yards away. It's pointless to shoot an Aimpoint or EOtech against someone with a variable power scope when my dot fully obscures a plate at 100 yards . My cheap EOTech will continue to come off for matches unless we see a new division or aggregate... For the 3 gun matches you will be shooting around your area....the Eotech is not a disadvantage. Its got a 1 moa dot. Your max engagement at A6 multigun is gonna be a 10" MGM flash target at 200 yards and some 4" micro poppers at 50-75. A 1x red dot with a 1moa dot is plenty competitive for young eyes. I rarely crank my scope up past 1x. Especially at A6. There is way more hoser/in your face targets that the Eotech will shine on than there is long range. One stage will have some long range engagement at A6. I suggest you go to the match with the Eotech before passing judgement and assuming that you cannot compete without a variable. Now there are some matches that power is a benefit. In that case.....adding a magnifier behind your Eotech helps alot. I know of several shooters that do well with an Eotech with magnifier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scirocco38s Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 I agree with the article. I'm a 20 year old college student and I can afford an AR and ammo but not $1,000 to dump on glass when it could go into ammo or even another rifle. (or books ) I'm going to a three gun match soon and I chose to remove my EOTech because I'd be getting slammed by people with long range variable optics when it comes time for shots hundreds of yards away. It's pointless to shoot an Aimpoint or EOtech against someone with a variable power scope when my dot fully obscures a plate at 100 yards . My cheap EOTech will continue to come off for matches unless we see a new division or aggregate... I watch a guy with a 16"M4 and an eotech whip everyones butt at 3-gun matches and we shoot out to 300 yards at the match. He knows his gun and his ammo and his points of aim. Absolutely no problem, he shoots the long range stuff as fast as or faster than anyone there. Regardless of the optic they use. He will also do the same with irons but that is another issue. Dont think you are being beat because of the variable optics. It a differrent reason. I also am not singleing you out, just an observation from this discussion. The statement that the outlaw matches arent going to change it is totally correct as they have found a combination that works and sells out for them. This is entertainment and they are appealing to their paying base that supports them the most. I personally think that the divisions are diverse enoough as it is and too diverse in the pistol only part of uspsa but that is my thought alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinistralRifleman Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 This does strike me as somewhat logical. Another organization I participate in was recently discussing doing pretty much the same thing. I have no problem shooting in open with a variable power optic, I already do often. And I still manage to place in the middle at national matches in Open when my only real open gun is my Saiga-12. If Red Dot Sight-Tactical Whatever was a division it might give me reason to shoot a t00ber shotgun again. While we are making changes, lets add a MOR Division, manually operated rifle, 1911 max 8 rounds in mag and pump shotgun. The cowboy action forum is that way ------> 2 more years and the 1911 will be 100 years old, maybe then they will include it as an antique for SASS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revopop Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 2 more years and the 1911 will be 100 years old, maybe then they will include it as an antique for SASS They have. Wild Bunch class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DyNo! Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 Dont think you are being beat because of the variable optics. It a differrent reason. No, I'm being beat because I'm not the best. I shoot for fun, not to win (Otherwise I would have hung this stuff up nearly a decade ago and rolled around in all of the money I'd be saving right now from not shooting) My cheap EOTech will continue to come off for matches unless we see a new division or aggregate... I watch a guy with a 16"M4 and an eotech whip everyones butt at 3-gun matches and we shoot out to 300 yards at the match. He knows his gun and his ammo and his points of aim. Absolutely no problem, he shoots the long range stuff as fast as or faster than anyone there. Regardless of the optic they use. He will also do the same with irons but that is another issue. My point was - give that same guy a variable power scope and put him against a clone of himself using the same EOTech. Watch him lose. Just because a person is getting beat doesn't mean they don't want to be competitive. Just because a person isn't trying to win the match doesn't mean they don't want to compete against their peers. Otherwise, I'd save even more money and just shoot a high-point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChristianHE Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 (edited) I read that letter in Front Sight also, and one of it's main points (and the most important to me) was that it's a gear-race and I totally agree. A guy with a 1-6 has a definite advantage over someone with a 3x or 1-4 optic. "Well, just buy yourself a 1-6 then" is the answer? How about when the 1-8 power comes out? Then I need to dump a $2200 optic so I can get the $3000 one? Also a person with a $200 1-4x optic will not have as clear a shot on those "unpainted, hidden in the brush" targets as those with $1200 optics. No question, it's about money. Some shooters are definitely better than others for sure, and will win with whatever, doesn't negate the advantages though. Oh, I forgot- why not instead move 1x dots to tac-irons?! Edited September 1, 2009 by ChristianHE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_pinto Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 (edited) No dots in limited! Edited September 1, 2009 by mike_pinto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larry cazes Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 I read that letter in Front Sight also, and one of it's main points (and the most important to me) was that it's a gear-race and I totally agree. A guy with a 1-6 has a definite advantage over someone with a 3x or 1-4 optic. "Well, just buy yourself a 1-6 then" is the answer? How about when the 1-8 power comes out? Then I need to dump a $2200 optic so I can get the $3000 one? Also a person with a $200 1-4x optic will not have as clear a shot on those "unpainted, hidden in the brush" targets as those with $1200 optics. No question, it's about money. Some shooters are definitely better than others for sure, and will win with whatever, doesn't negate the advantages though.Oh, I forgot- why not instead move 1x dots to tac-irons?! This just goes back to the "level the playing field" discussions that seem to rear their ugly heads here. Aint gonna happen and it is not productive to keep changing the rules to try to achieve it. Get used to the fact that unless you are Rob Leatham, there will always be those that do things better and a little smarter than you. A lot of us enjoy and welcome the challenge of improving our gear and techniques to someday possibly achieve greatness at our own level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike P Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 Well since (in theory)we are going to call this red dot/iron sight class "tactical" and get all of the variable powered scopes out of it and into open, and since the variable powered scopes aren't really "tactical", but competition equipment, should we not also put those guns with the far forward front sights into open too? I'd hazard a guess (and that's all it is mind you ) that there are more variable powered scopes being used in really real, "real world" "tactical" applications than those end of barrel, behind the muzzle brake, mounted front sight contraptions. Just sayin'.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 You mean like an M1A or a M1 Garaand? Or do you mean like a Disipator? How about EVERYTHING is in open and we all just shoot heads up? That would be my vote, no more divisions or classes, I ain't afraid of no dots or optics and then we could all run Beta C Mags like we used to! KurtM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_pinto Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 +1. Let's roll all as one division. I'll still shoot irons though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike P Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 You mean like an M1A or a M1 Garaand? Or do you mean like a Disipator? How about EVERYTHING is in open and we all just shoot heads up? That would be my vote, no more divisions or classes, I ain't afraid of no dots or optics and then we could all run Beta C Mags like we used to! KurtM Of course what I meant was AR 15's with non-standard iron sights. However, I'd never seen a picture of a "Dissipator" before, is that a rifle length gas system on a short barrel? The .30 cals already have their own place, sort of, but thats another subject. What I'm saying is that just as the VP optic is considered an advantage over fixed power, or red dots, the add on irons sights should likewise be considered an advantage over the standard sights. As far as heads up goes, why the heck not, and I don't even own a Beta C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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