Red dot for Tact Optic only

[Benelli Chick]

I was going to say, "oh, we're playing golf now?" but Mark beat me to it!

Wynn Anderson started the whole golf discussion at Blue Ridge or Johnson, I don't remember which, so he should get the credit for it!

As far as a little more work to make targets visible no matter what the condidtions?? We are not allowed to cut down trees, and what looks like a great, flat, beautiful place from 400 yards away, on google etc, often turns out to be a solid rock, vertical, sheer piece of nothing, and you have to make due. It's difficult placing targets in natural terrain and not in berms. They are so much easier to see when nature doesn't get in the way!

One of the reasons I've been told they like us at the Whittington Center (other than that comment Mike made in 2008 about us being so happy when we miss so much) is that a lot of the other disciplines that shoot out there (the non-action ones) are always asking for them to take care of the mosquitos and other bugs, get the dirt off the cement pads, make the wind and rain stop. No seriously, they complain about it to the management like they can do something about it!! No, every shooter does not get the exact same challenge on every stage. In berms it's more likely, but...out here in God's country??? You do what you can!

Honestly, every shooter never gets the exact same challenge, even if you're indoors and everything on the stage is the same, every shooter comes different. I am WAAYYYYY more challenged than other people some days. Once in a blue moon, the stars align and someone else is challenged more than me, but not often!!!

Someone told me, he was bummed he got beat by a girl. I get beat by that Denise chick in every match I go to!!!

You guys have a nice day, and the whole golf thing could work okay in a berm, but I'm not sure about the wilderness! But keep thinking outside the berm!!!

[bigbrowndog]

Denise using that logic would you say it would be OK to move the targets for every third shooter, since making sure everyone has the same chance at a target is not important.

PPres, I have no problem with making shooters shoot from positions other than prone, I actually made the comment somewhere??? that here in the US we only shoot rifle in your face or way out there, with nothing in between and on our feet moving or prone. i would really like to see makeshift positions for targets from 100 to 250, in an effort to challenge shooters, those at least are skills that can be practiced to get better at, and not equipment related.

Mark, As for ladies tees and mens tees, i wear a large in mens and I have no clue in womens!!!!!!!!!!!!

Denise that was JJ saying you're a bit hard on him at times!!!

trapr

Edited August 31, 2009 by bigbrowndog

[el pres]

You guys have a nice day, and the whole golf thing could work okay in a berm, but I'm not sure about the wilderness! But keep thinking outside the berm!!!

Denise, I dont understand how it would not work just because of natural terrain ?? I dont play golf so I dont know what you guys are talking about but they have holes we have stages etc ?? I'm just saying that to effectively test a scoped shooter , which you guys do there, you need some distance and some akward positions. The iron guys are shooting practical rifle also and not Bianchi rifle and at 600yds with irons, well ?? We have these divisions and to thouroughly test one you have to make it more work and less fun for another. It just makes sense to me ...

Edited August 31, 2009 by P.Pres

[RiggerJJ]

Trapr,

Since you are the OP I'll continue what you brought up about "taking chances at a target". (if you want we can move this portion of the discussion to 2009 JP RM3G thread)

Gaming was not my intent by suggesting to try a few shots and move on. I was just answering the guy that was complaining about not being able to hit 400 yard targets by suggesting not spending all your time on one taget. there is a difference of gaming vs trying and failing.

all targets at RM3G were naked eye visable, I was the one standing at the shooting positions while they were being placed. I do not condone the gaming "shoot & scoot" you are suggesting (thus the rule of making an honest effort, and ROs did issue a few warning, but no penalties) but even if you did do that on stage 8;

probably would have taken 30 seconds to shoot one at each from both rifle positions and dump your rifle, maybe another 30 seconds to finish the shotgun portion of the stage. so thats a 60 second or so run, plus 6-15 second penalties for missing the high value rifle targets adding another 90 for a total stage time of 230 seconds, a pretty poor score for that stage. so if in fact you would have done the "shoot & scoot", you would have gotten eaten up by miss penalties, and probably would have gotten a poor sportsmanship 1 or 2 as well...

I know there were targets that were in shadows or partially obscured, I placed them there on purpose. I placed them so they were shadowed all day on stage 1, 5 and 7. the long one on 7 was much more visable if you shot it from the fence post (a good rest too) to the right of the big rock. the stage description did not say you had to shoot from the rock, just don't go past it. we are in fact shooting in natural terrain and will have targets in shadows or lit poorly during different parts of the day, its just the nature of the beast at Raton. we try to make things as equal as possible, but do not have the luxury of making things perfect like on bermed ranges...now if we could just find the volume control for the wind...

the backers we use are 18x24, about 4moa or better I think, with the target in the middle minimun 10inches, 12 inches at 400yds...

jj

[Benelli Chick]

The Girl is the one who gets to explain golf!!!!

In Golf, there are ladies tees, usually marked with red "balls" that are closer to the hole on the long holes, or in some way easier. (The regular balls are usually white, and the profession balls are usually blue!) Blue balls!!!!!!!! (JJ has just informed me, that he thinks the pro tees are black balls!)

By having different divisions shoot at different distances, it would be like having different tees (that's balls) for each division, with some closer. Our original theory, when Wynn and I talked about it earlier was senior tees (50 yards closer, 50 yards less running) regular tees, and then, everyone under 30 starts 100 yards further back, further shooting and more running! Daniel would still win, but at least I'd be closer!!!!

Trapr,

if I could change the targets for every shooter, and have them at the same distances, but have them be a surprise, I would!!! But, we have enough trouble finding a place to put them just the one time!!! And if I can't paint them between shooters, I sure as heck can't move them!!!

What I was saying is that each of us comes to the stage with our own issues. Things we're good at, things we're less good at. That's why JJ and I did Johnson 3-Gun with all those choicey stages. We wanted each shooter to look at their skill set and try to shoot the stage to their personal advantage! I suck at speed shoots, but when I get to think a little, I can do better! It's never going to be equal for everyone. Same guns - they don't fit some people. Same scopes - people's eyes and the way they see aren't the same. We try VERY hard to have same targets, but the shooter brings different challenges every time!!! Like I said, I'm more challenged than most!!!!!!

Keep thinking boys! We'll have to give some consideration to the whole different ball thing!

Edited August 31, 2009 by Benelli Chick

[kellyn]

This is one of the dumber threads that I have seen. I don't think that even 10% of the shooters in Tac Scope shoot a red dot sight (and those that do usually have a 3X magnifier on a Samson mount). The vast majority shoot variables or ACOGs and now we have a "movement" to switch Tac Scope to a 1x Red Dot. I don't think so.

Tactical Division is the result of a lot of pressure by those who did not want to shoot Limited/Tac Iron rifles but wanted to retain their "tactical" pistols and shotguns. It is by far the most popular division and I don't see any pressure to move it in any other direction (except by those who do not even shoot in the division). Outlaw Multigun is really not likely to follow IPSC's preference for Open and Limited. So hash this thread out to 10 or 20 or 30 pages but I don't see any changes in the near or even distance future.

And note that this post is not from someone who is afraid to compete with iron sights or 1X red dot sights.

[Mike P]

Denise using that logic would you say it would be OK to move the targets for every third shooter, since making sure everyone has the same chance at a target is not important.

PPres, I have no problem with making shooters shoot from positions other than prone, I actually made the comment somewhere??? that here in the US we only shoot rifle in your face or way out there, with nothing in between and on our feet moving or prone. i would really like to see makeshift positions for targets from 100 to 250, in an effort to challenge shooters, those at least are skills that can be practiced to get better at, and not equipment related.

Mark, As for ladies tees and mens tees, i wear a large in mens and I have no clue in womens!!!!!!!!!!!!

Denise that was JJ saying you're a bit hard on him at times!!!

trapr

Makeshift positions you say??? You shot Blueridge, do the 4 trees, the barrel, or the stubby barricade with the hole in it not count? Or are you talking about unsupported positions?

[el pres]

This is one of the dumber threads that I have seen. I don't think that even 10% of the shooters in Tac Scope shoot a red dot sight (and those that do usually have a 3X magnifier on a Samson mount). The vast majority shoot variables or ACOGs and now we have a "movement" to switch Tac Scope to a 1x Red Dot. I don't think so.

Tactical Division is the result of a lot of pressure by those who did not want to shoot Limited/Tac Iron rifles but wanted to retain their "tactical" pistols and shotguns. It is by far the most popular division and I don't see any pressure to move it in any other direction (except by those who do not even shoot in the division). Outlaw Multigun is really not likely to follow IPSC's preference for Open and Limited. So hash this thread out to 10 or 20 or 30 pages but I don't see any changes in the near or even distance future.

And note that this post is not from someone who is afraid to compete with iron sights or 1X red dot sights.

I agree, see my OP. but since the iron shooters and now "red dot" shooters are always bitching and their solution

is to try and change "my" game I'm trying to find a solution that is fair ??

[Big Bore]

Trapr,

I finaly made the effort to read the entire thread and I must say there are some really good

opinions both ways in this one but I have another suggestion that would solve all this.

First of all, the yellow backer boards like we've seen at Ft Benning and Rocky Mountain should be standard.

Secondly , you know I am a TacScp shooter, I believe that the targets at most matches are not hard enough

for all of the $ variable scopes. I belive Rocky Mountain is the premeire rifle match for scoped rifles with shots out to

600yds. I dont think that the targets should be so easy that anyone with a good scope could just sit there and plug

away at targets without any long range practice, positions should be less comfortable also, more off hand maybe.

My proposal is to have different courses of fire for the different rifle divisions. For instance, irons shoot all of the

targets with the yellow backers 150-350, TacScop shoots the yellows as well as the orange backers out to 500-600.

Open shoots from a different position where props are not used as support, ie. bi-pod. No no one can bitch ??

Peter

So Peter, if I shoot in limited, which I usually do, and hit the Scoped tactical targets or the open targets do I get a bonus???

Edited August 31, 2009 by Big Bore

[Charles Bond]

Trapr,

I finaly made the effort to read the entire thread and I must say there are some really good

opinions both ways in this one but I have another suggestion that would solve all this.

First of all, the yellow backer boards like we've seen at Ft Benning and Rocky Mountain should be standard.

Secondly , you know I am a TacScp shooter, I believe that the targets at most matches are not hard enough

for all of the $ variable scopes. I belive Rocky Mountain is the premeire rifle match for scoped rifles with shots out to

600yds. I dont think that the targets should be so easy that anyone with a good scope could just sit there and plug

away at targets without any long range practice, positions should be less comfortable also, more off hand maybe.

My proposal is to have different courses of fire for the different rifle divisions. For instance, irons shoot all of the

targets with the yellow backers 150-350, TacScop shoots the yellows as well as the orange backers out to 500-600.

Open shoots from a different position where props are not used as support, ie. bi-pod. No no one can bitch ??

Peter

Nothing at all wrong with this thinking and that would be one great way to do it for the shooters. Largest problem I can see is for the MD to locate and errect all of those extra targets..

[el pres]

Trapr,

I finaly made the effort to read the entire thread and I must say there are some really good

opinions both ways in this one but I have another suggestion that would solve all this.

First of all, the yellow backer boards like we've seen at Ft Benning and Rocky Mountain should be standard.

Secondly , you know I am a TacScp shooter, I believe that the targets at most matches are not hard enough

for all of the $ variable scopes. I belive Rocky Mountain is the premeire rifle match for scoped rifles with shots out to

600yds. I dont think that the targets should be so easy that anyone with a good scope could just sit there and plug

away at targets without any long range practice, positions should be less comfortable also, more off hand maybe.

My proposal is to have different courses of fire for the different rifle divisions. For instance, irons shoot all of the

targets with the yellow backers 150-350, TacScop shoots the yellows as well as the orange backers out to 500-600.

Open shoots from a different position where props are not used as support, ie. bi-pod. No no one can bitch ??

Peter

So Peter, if I shoot in limited, which I usually do, and hit the Scoped tactical targets or the open targets do I get a bonus???

No one can bitch huh ?? I dont care if you do, I'm not shooting Limited ..

It's just an idea, got any ideas other then taking my scope away ??

Edited August 31, 2009 by P.Pres

[Big Bore]

Trapr,

I finaly made the effort to read the entire thread and I must say there are some really good

opinions both ways in this one but I have another suggestion that would solve all this.

First of all, the yellow backer boards like we've seen at Ft Benning and Rocky Mountain should be standard.

Secondly , you know I am a TacScp shooter, I believe that the targets at most matches are not hard enough

for all of the $ variable scopes. I belive Rocky Mountain is the premeire rifle match for scoped rifles with shots out to

600yds. I dont think that the targets should be so easy that anyone with a good scope could just sit there and plug

away at targets without any long range practice, positions should be less comfortable also, more off hand maybe.

My proposal is to have different courses of fire for the different rifle divisions. For instance, irons shoot all of the

targets with the yellow backers 150-350, TacScop shoots the yellows as well as the orange backers out to 500-600.

Open shoots from a different position where props are not used as support, ie. bi-pod. No no one can bitch ??

Peter

So Peter, if I shoot in limited, which I usually do, and hit the Scoped tactical targets or the open targets do I get a bonus???

No one can bitch huh ?? I dont care if you do, I'm not shooting Limited ..

It's just an idea, got any ideas other then taking my scope away ??

I don't want your scope I just want to beat you with irons.

[mlmiller1]

This is a pretty controversial idea you guys are talking about. I'm sure no one cares what I think but I'm going to express my opinions anyway. :-)

I shoot irons & enjoy it. I don't care if the division is small & my chances of doing well are statistically less than they would be in Tactical. However, I can see the day when my eyesight isn't going to be what it is now. You guys need to think about that too. Anyway, when that day comes, I want to move to tactical, not open. In Tactical you at least can make up a little bit for less than stellar eyesight with a variable scope. Moving into Open just absolutely seals the lid on the coffin. What fun would that be? Maybe you guys don't care so much for the older crowd or care if it is impossible for them to even pretend they can compete but let me remind you, you are going to be there too, & sooner than you think. I don't want to have to shoot open just so I can have a variable power scope to see the long range targets. When I get older, I don't want to tote around a quiver full of shotgun sticks or have two optics & a bipod on my rifle just so I feel like I can play. If others want to do that, good for them but I don't.

Are the red dot & 1x guys complaining or feeling left out or cheated? If so, I suggest if they want to have a place to play, put them in limited with the irons. Leave tactical alone & allow variables & anyone else that wants to compete in tactical that fits the present rules do so. See what happens then. Maybe the whole crowd will move into limited & you will have more people to beat, good for you, but I imagine most of the people shooting tactical will stay there.

If people leave tactical & make it a non competitive division, then shut it down but I say keep it & allow dots & 1x in limited. See what happens.

If you don't like this idea, why not take your irons & shoot in tactical? Kurt has done that before & won so why not just do that?

MLM

[kurtm]

No one is tring to take your scope away, all we are saying is you just can't use it tactical optic, you can use it in open.

J.J. When you get more than 60% of all shooters in all divisions timing out on stages, you might question whether the targets are visible. I saw several scope shooters shoot into an area that had NO target, because they couldn't SEE the target and were just guessing, even with their scope. Yes, all the targets were visible to you because there were people there setting them up and you knew right where they were. A good test is to have someone come by that wasn't there at set up and have them take a look, with just eyes, and then shoot it in, any problems become very apparent.

I can vouch for Kelly NOT being afraid to shoot iron, but I have seen him shy a bit around red dots...especially around "reflex sights"

[mr50mag]

If I had two more hands I would give it 4 thumbs down.

Don't go away mad, just go away.

Edited August 31, 2009 by mr50mag

[RiggerJJ]

awww, cummon Kort, you trying to tell me that on stage 1 (the stage we discussed at dpms) there were targets that were not visable??? there was one in the shadows at about 360yds, but it was more than visable with the backer, etc...

and I do know better than to not check, double check, triple check target placement several times during the different daylight conditions...

-----must be beat up on jj day...

jj

edit to add; do I need to yell at the ROs for not pointing out the tgts during the walk thru???

Edited August 31, 2009 by RiggerJJ

[Benelli Chick]

Kurt,

I'm sure you saw people with a scope shooting up the wrong area, because the scope cut down their field of vision and they got lost on which clump of trees they were looking for a target next to. I know none of you iron sighted shooters would have gotten that lost!

Not that anyone with a scope has gone across the field and missed an entire target because they can only see through the scope and not where they are in relation to the world!!!! I know I've never done it! And even more...JJ has never done it, especially at FNH 2 or 3 years ago!!!

Lookie!!! Another reason why you like iron sights!!!!!

How come no one's talking about the little golf balls??????tees, whatever??

[P.E. Kelley]

This is one of the dumber threads that I have seen. I don't think that even 10% of the shooters in Tac Scope shoot a red dot sight (and those that do usually have a 3X magnifier on a Samson mount). The vast majority shoot variables or ACOGs and now we have a "movement" to switch Tac Scope to a 1x Red Dot. I don't think so.

Tactical Division is the result of a lot of pressure by those who did not want to shoot Limited/Tac Iron rifles but wanted to retain their "tactical" pistols and shotguns. It is by far the most popular division and I don't see any pressure to move it in any other direction (except by those who do not even shoot in the division). Outlaw Multigun is really not likely to follow IPSC's preference for Open and Limited. So hash this thread out to 10 or 20 or 30 pages but I don't see any changes in the near or even distance future.

And note that this post is not from someone who is afraid to compete with iron sights or 1X red dot sights.

Yea Kelly!!! This is why YOU are the moderator and not me!

If ya gotta F with the divisions and ya want more participation in the Limited Iron division then let x1 optics in that division.

Leave the TacScope division alone.

Bring on your red dots. I ain't skeered neither.

Patrick

[bigbrowndog]

the make shift positions at BRM3G were very nice, there were other things that were not though.

JJ, I do not know what you saw when the targets were there but I know that the target on stage 1 back in the trees was very hard to see, we chose to have the iron sight shooters go first and later realized that as the squad shot the light changed and the targets were actually easier to see, and the target all the way over on the right was very much in the shadows in the A.M. and very difficult to see with the naked eye much less thru the sights. As for stage 7 I did not have any problems seeing targets, once I knew where they were, the hardest one to locate was actually one of the first ones on the right on the hillside because of the dirt and the shadows. On stage 8 I gave an honest attempt and got some hits, but did not try more than twice, and even with penalties it was a 100% stage with irons and it really should not have been.

Denise I think the Iron sight balls should be bigger than the optic balls!!!!!

Trapr

[kurtm]

I ain't pickin on ya roomy! I know you guys do your darnedest, but sometimes it is hard to see the targets for the trees Seriously though I am not picking on you guys, it is a darn hard thing to do in open terrain.

As a side note we always shoot the stages in with a real good shooter an average shooter, and a ...well...not so average shooter before anyone shoots it for a score, that is why we never shot the S.O.F.s and RM3Gs we put on. in so doing we always know the cycle time per shooter and IF the stage is doable in the alotted time.

As for the ball thing, I think optic balls should be closer. If you need a scope to see the targets, you probably are near sighted and need all the help you can get. KurtM

[kellyn]

I agree with Pat (who would be a great moderator), allow this massive group of poor 1X red dot sight shooters to shoot in Limited class. Call it the no magnification division or the "Kurt/Trapr get to beat up on red dot sights" division but leave our most popular (by far) division alone.

I do have an idea however, let's really make some distinctions between the divisions. How about making Limited or Tac Iron Iron division shoot Production minor power factor pistols (with 10 round magazines) and pump shotguns with a 5 round magazine. That way there would be a real distinction between the equipment of Tactical (optics) and Limited. I think Limited would become a more interesting division if we did it this way.

[Mike P]

What are the chances that this whole thread is another of Trapper's pot stirring efforts? If so, he knocked it out of the park.

[mpeltier]

all targets at RM3G were naked eye visable, I was the one standing at the shooting positions while they were being placed.

jj

Not to me. And I just had my anual eye exam. I am certain that watching them get placed would help imensly in bieng able to see them. On stage 1 for example there was a shadowed rock that we all thought was the target, then someone pointed out another dark spot that turned out to be the real target. If I were not shooting a magnified optic I would have had many more misses than I did. Misses are NOT fun. I shoot this for fun. Sorry for the possible thred drift but its all related.

[bigbrowndog]

I heard my name used in conjunction with with pot stirring, bear poking, and other such shenanigans. Who on earth would do such a thing to such a good topic, I see a trend developing here!!!!!

trapr

[RiggerJJ]

you guys are all welcome to come out the weekend before RM3G 2010 for setup and help set the long range rifle targets. good luck finding a place for all the targets that will not be shadowed sometime during the day...

jj