Jump to content
Brian Enos's Forums... Maku mozo!

Red dot for Tact Optic only


bigbrowndog

Recommended Posts

Nothing is stopping the shooter from having a BUIS in any of the USPSA divisions.

In the new Limited RDS division you can still have a BUIS or any other type of irons.

The only thing it would change is that the RDS would be legal in Limited Rifle.

All the Limited Irons shooters can shoot. But you will have the added pariticipation of all the RDS only shooters that don't shoot because they can't compete on an equal footing with the magnified optic shooters.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 202
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

RS, I thought you were all for eliminating the equipment race, by going to 1x optics everyone would be equal you don't have to worry about being able to afford a 2200.00 scope in order to be competitive, just like the BETA mag issue. It will level the playing field, you can shoot on the same level as every other 1x shooter including Iron shooters, and think of the technology the manufacturers will come up with, just look at the new Trijicon 42mm objective reflex sight, they could go to 50mm.

MD's could combine prize tables, Irons and 1x optics would be......................................the same!!!!!!!!!!

A 4moa dot is fine enough to hit long range steel with, and for the hoser stuff you could flip to a big 12moa dot.

This will work!!!!! Unmagnified 1x sight division, sounds better because then iron sight shooters could compete in the division if they want.

I like it, RS, good suggestion.

Only do away with magnified division and place them in OPEN, its only practical!!!!! there really isn't any difference in the 2 divisions anyway.

Trapr

Edited by bigbrowndog
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I like the idea of non-magnified dot and irons being in the same division. If anything, an adjustable iron sight might give an advantage to a 1x scope with a too-big dot on further targets.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wasn't really on board with this idea when I read it in Front Sight two days ago......but the more I think about it......it wouldn't be bad as it would just completely level a big part of the playing field. I'd ditch the Z6 for an Aimpoint.

I just don't see it happening.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And there you have it...the perfect solution as proffered by RS.

Two divisions RDS and Open.

Think about it this way...you have a rifle on the bench with a empty flat top and gas block. What to do??? which Division???

$400ish for RDS (assuming Eotech, Aimpoint purchase)

or

$900ish for Open (assuming Meopta, Burris XTR and bipod)

By eliminating Tac Optics the choice became much simpler. And with Low Power Variable's and Cattail throw levers the secondary optic in Open is damn near obsolete anyway. Just saw a video of a shoot 1 load 8 shoot 1 at 5.6 secs so those shotgun speedloaders aren't an advantage either. Again, the equipment race just got simplified and there will definitely be a tangible performance separation.....I am in.

Edited by smokshwn
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm with Todd, thing is though match directors could make this happen without a rule change. All they'd have to do is make target definition an non-issue, and everyone would shoot an Aimpoint or irons anyway because it'd be faster. Everyone knows that "up close, nothing is faster than irons" Right?

Then again, why not let USPSA add yet another class?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Right.. and

Get rid of the speedloaders on shotguns, the comps and reddots, etc

Get rid of comps on pistols and 170MM mags

Then.. what the heck.. that's fine

The last 3 times you've all shot a major match.. what division were you in?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I like Craigs idea better.

Just have Open and Limited/RDS

There is less disruption by still keeping it with three divisions.

If you only have Open and Limited/RDS you would force all the current Tactical shooters to have to either ditch their magnified optic and get a RDS or go into Open.

But if you have Limited RDS, Tactical and Open it wouldn't affect negatively the Tactical (and Open) shooters at all as nothing would change in those divisions.

Limited RDS, Tactical and Open.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Trapper: The president does not yet choose the car I drive so why should we all insist that everyone use the same scope? And if we are going to restrict tactical to one type of scope, should we not also require stages not require movement so we can keep everyone as equal as possible based on age, physical condition, disability, etc. After all our game is about shooting.

Todd: If I vote for the change in the rules you have endorsed are you going to swap me that Z6 which you could not use for an aimpoint (brand new in wrapper with mount of your choice) which would be allowed. :huh:

Would it be only red dots or would the Eotech bullet drop reticle be allowed?

If the US military starts to more widely issue the Elcan DR Spector (some units already have them), do we change what we allow?

One reason the military looked so hard at red dots in the first place is because they first appeared in our sport and proved reliable. I kind of like that we defined that and that our sport decided what was tactical. Many of the variable scopes with red dots or illuminated reticles are already in the hands of many members of law enforcement and are being issued to military units. Last I heard the designed marksman in units were not being limited to 1X scopes.

Are we going to insist on no free float handguards, standard stocks, standard pistol grips, flash hiders only, and a 5 lb or better two stage trigger? And will everyone have to shoot one brand of ammo with one bullet weight? And should this not also be factory ammo to eliminate people tuning loads?

If what many of you desire is a production rifle division, why not talk one of the major matches into adding it as a division as a proof of interest or proof of concept? It might be rather easy to incorporate this into the trooper division.

Charles Bond

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I like Craigs idea better.

Just have Open and Limited/RDS

If you only have Open and Limited/RDS you would force all the current Tactical shooters to have to either ditch their magnified optic and get a RDS or go into Open.

Moving down is a rebate...sell the spendy variable and buy the cheaper RDS

Moving up is simply a bipod away and in this last year (from the matches I have shot) the use of a bipod has been rather insignificant as a shooting advantage.

We have nullified the open shotgun advantage .... its been shown time and again that loading is at best equal and the advantage offered by an optic over irons with the shotgun is largely personal preference. Right now there is a huge amount of debate on shotgun. Optics, speedloaders, capacity, box mag etc. etc., IMO shotgun comes down to not missing and having to do the most time consuming thing with ANY shotgun...change your loading scheme and reload. I think this would be a great way to let the shotgun experiment run its course and we can make progress on the debat.

As to the open pistol....with few exceptions most 3 gun matches give the pistol aspects very little attention. I shot a Glock 34 at RM3G with 22 rd mags and didn't feel at any point that I gave away any shooting advantage to my open pistol. As a matter of fact my decision to shoot the Glock/XD/MP derived from the huge advantage every division gets when abandoning a pistol that by its operating system is safe without any operator input.

Once again I am in for RDS and Open

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the majority of us here feel the same, ditch TO and just go with open and 1x sight, if you have a variable and don't want to go to open then just sell it on the Classifieds, heck I'd buy one just for a hunting scope.

The lines between TO and Open a just blurry smudges anyway, I really see a trend developing.

Just think of the masses of new shooters that could compete on a level playing field, aren't we trying to get more new shooters?????? it would be a great entry level division again. All those variable shooters could switch or go to Open, MD's wouldn't have to worry about which prize table gets which rifle or upper, it would just be 2 divisions again, like the old days.

Charles, you don't have to use the same scope, there's Trijicon reflex, Aimpoint, C-more, Zeiss, EOtech, heck there are a lot of choices, who said it was about physical condition, have you looked at some of the shooters lately???? i think 1x optic would suffice, etched reticle or red dot who cares so long as its NO magnification. All your other ideas sound pretty good, I think it would boost the retail sales of the sponsors and that would allow them to sponsor more shooters and lower prices on ammo and stuff.

As for a production rifle division I think it would be easier to implement this change first, you can promote your own ideas on another topic though.

Trapr

Edited by bigbrowndog
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Moving down is a rebate...sell the spendy variable and buy the cheaper RDS

Moving up is simply a bipod away and in this last year (from the matches I have shot) the use of a bipod has been rather insignificant as a shooting advantage.

We have nullified the open shotgun advantage .... its been shown time and again that loading is at best equal and the advantage offered by an optic over irons with the shotgun is largely personal preference. Right now there is a huge amount of debate on shotgun. Optics, speedloaders, capacity, box mag etc. etc., IMO shotgun comes down to not missing and having to do the most time consuming thing with ANY shotgun...change your loading scheme and reload. I think this would be a great way to let the shotgun experiment run its course and we can make progress on the debat.

As to the open pistol....with few exceptions most 3 gun matches give the pistol aspects very little attention. I shot a Glock 34 at RM3G with 22 rd mags and didn't feel at any point that I gave away any shooting advantage to my open pistol. As a matter of fact my decision to shoot the Glock/XD/MP derived from the huge advantage every division gets when abandoning a pistol that by its operating system is safe without any operator input.

Moving down isn't a rebate. If I sell any of my magnified optics I would get less money than I spend for it. Where's the rebate. And what happened to all the training and practice that I have built up using my optic? And what happened to my freedom of choice.

Moving to Open means getting 2+ bipods, QD attachments for the bipods, getting a side sight RDS, getting sticks for my shotgun, getting conversions for said sticks to bump it up to 8 rds, getting stick holders for my belt, getting an RDS for the shotgun, getting a new tube, getting ports on my shogun barrel or getting a new barrel altogether, getting a new top-end for my pistol, getting an RDS for said pistol, getting 170's, etc. etc. etc.

And we are talking about USPSA. In the USPSA MG Nationals I have attended, the pistol has always been treated equally and isn't a garnish like it is in the outlaw matches.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On the note of participation and sponsors.

For RDS look at the numbers of M4gery's out there and there owners who don't have a place in Tactical and have no desire to shoot irons.....can you say green pastures for the new guy.

For the sponsors...they can finally get their heads around the differences in divisions and instead of being baffled can begin to see distinct marketing benefits and give much more directed support. Not to mention the exponential increase in sponsor numbers due to the huge number of RDS manufacturers.

BONUS all the way around.

On the note of mimicking our troops...be very careful of using that as a guide......Elcan Specter's are cheap compared to a PEQ2 or PVS 14 ....just sayin :P

Edited by smokshwn
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the majority of us here feel the same, ditch TO and just go with open and 1x sight, if you have a variable and don't want to go to open then just sell it on the Classifieds, heck I'd buy one just for a hunting scope.

Ditch TO? Give me a break. Tactical is the largest division there is in USPSA MG.

Tactical Optics is the largest division in the outlaw matches.

And you guys want to get rid of it? :rolleyes:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Todd: If I vote for the change in the rules you have endorsed are you going to swap me that Z6 which you could not use for an aimpoint (brand new in wrapper with mount of your choice) which would be allowed. :huh:

Charles Bond

Charles.....is it going to come to a vote by the BOD?

I don't so much endorse it.....but I also do not condone it. I also said I don't think it will ever happen. But 1x optics to replace an optic driven division.......really helps level the playing field.

I think my Z6 will stay with me for a while though. It will get good use one way or the other.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just because its the largest division doesn't mean it can't evolve into something else, that's what happened when TO came from the Limited/Open classes. You seem to think that the change of the TO class will cause a drop in participation, I really think you're not seeing the BIG picture. you'll combine shooters from Iron and TO divisions and produce the largest division that exists. the few variable shooters that have no desire to evolve, will easily be absorbed into the open class, thus leaving us with 2 distinct classes that will have distinct differences and sponsors and spectators will be able to differentiate them easier.

Besides you don't NEED to make all those changes to your equipment, again remember that Taran WON open class with mostly TO equipment.

Trapr

Edited by bigbrowndog
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't know if I am all for just 2 divisions. But I would be willing to give it a try.

I think a guy with some type of red dot, regardless of type or brand, would be at a disadvantage against someone who is evenly marginally competant with irons due to the size of the dot and light conditions. The advantage with a dot maybe the ability to hose the mid range targets a little faster and you probably might be able to tell yourself you don't need as much practice. But hell it would make the division larger and make the prize tables a little bit more attractive.

This discussion makes me wonder why I am building a scoped rifle..........open class, hmmmm, all I need is some sticks and a speed loader assist for my SX2.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Moving to Open means getting 2+ bipods, QD attachments for the bipods, getting a side sight RDS, getting sticks for my shotgun, getting conversions for said sticks to bump it up to 8 rds, getting stick holders for my belt, getting an RDS for the shotgun, getting a new tube, getting ports on my shogun barrel or getting a new barrel altogether, getting a new top-end for my pistol, getting an RDS for said pistol, getting 170's, etc. etc. etc.

See look at all the "freedom of choice" you will have. On one hand you can simply swap for a less expensive optic and run everything you have as is or you can go on a huge shopping spree of excess that will spur the economy.

As to the idea that Open is simply a AMEX swipe away from kicking everyone's ass...there isn't a single thing that is needed in multiples, extensions, or qd's.

One bipod...screw it on screw it off...convenient to QD yes but not absolutely necessary.

Speedstick extensions...again got my ass kicked by Don Bednorz at RM3G didn't see anything but 4rd sticks around him. And on that topic, instead of a handful of people being fast hand loading a shotty it is quickly becoming the norm thus leveling the field.

RDS on the shotgun...again at best a wash... there are plenty of guys just as fast with a flip up 1022 sight and fiber optic

Longer mag tube, ports, etc.....look again at any big boy 3 gun match...plenty of guys doin fine without em.

Open Pistol?....I am pretty sure no matter how many new top ends I get Manny Travis Dave Max Phil et al will manage to not feel too threatened.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is a suggestion in the latest Front Sight mag for the Tac Optic division to ONLY allow red dot (1x) optics, instead of the current trend of low to mid power optics 1-4x or 1-6x, etc. If you want to shoot a variable scope you would be placed in "heaven forbid............OPEN!!!!!! I read the suggestion and the very first thing that jumped into my mind was that, 1) there would be a much larger group of shooters having trouble SEEING the target at most matches. 2) Iron sight shooters would not be given the standard answer of "well maybe you should shoot an optic" and 3) Maybe, Maybe MD's would finally do something about those hard to see, hidden in shadows, unpainted, targets.

Then I snapped out of it and realized, it'll never happen,........................................................but maybe, just maybe!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If it was placed to a vote, I'd vote, Hell Yeah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! just so I could listen to the fine Chablis that would follow :roflol:

trapr

Wouldn't be the first time for me to hear, Oh well, tough shit we are not painting the targets and we don't care if they blend in perfectly into the sage brush and that its getting dark, or up the canyon this August where it was OK that half the target backer was gone for our squad ( we had 4 or 5 iron shooters), but as soon as the next squad showed up with a few "Big Names" it was quick lets get that fixed for you guys.

Scott

Link to comment
Share on other sites

All the above being said I think the premise of the discussion is a good one.

Time has passed, there has been a large leap forward with respect to equipment development and gear.

We have a situation where the divisions are blurring many ways. Some minor, some major, however most have an affect on participation of not only established shooters and sponsors, but potential shooters and sponsors as well.

I think it is a worthwhile endeavor to look at how change can be implemented in an effort to support new shooters, increase sponsor activity, and mainline the sport a little more. We are such a tiny subset of the shooting world that I think at times while looking inward we forget that the door may open to a much larger association and growth.

At any rate...:D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The individual who wrote the letter in FS is a friend of mine. I can understand his viewpoint. I'm building a new Iron sight gun in part because I had enough of dealing with scopes. There are a lot of rifles out there with reddots on them. A group at Ft. Bragg hosts a monthly USPSA match and this month is having a rifle/pistol match. I'd expect to see lots of reddots there. Seems like a way to get more shooters into the sport.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Todd: If I vote for the change in the rules you have endorsed are you going to swap me that Z6 which you could not use for an aimpoint (brand new in wrapper with mount of your choice) which would be allowed. :huh:

Charles Bond

Charles.....is it going to come to a vote by the BOD?

I don't so much endorse it.....but I also do not condone it. I also said I don't think it will ever happen. But 1x optics to replace an optic driven division.......really helps level the playing field.

I think my Z6 will stay with me for a while though. It will get good use one way or the other.

No vote is coming that I know of and I know of no area director which is even considering making such a motion. It is truly amazing how much juice one letter to the editor in Front Sight has generated in so little time. Going to one division in Rifle and Shotgun is truly an interesting idea. I would imagine we could also get the same amount of discussion if next issue has a letter about doing the same for pistol (since once upon a time everyone shot whatever gun they so elected) or if someone proposed elimination of categories (since after all you do not give an advantage based on occupation or sex or age in a gunfight).

At the end of the day we have to keep in mind that this is a sport with many different skills and interests and opinions. Just like some like baseball better than basketball or football better than soccer, does not mean we would all be better off with only one version of ball to play where one might pass a football shaped black and white ball aound an area but then hit it in a hoop with a stick to score.

It has been said that car racing started the second the second automobile rolled off of the assembly line. Shooting competitions likely started the first time a guy made a good shot and bragged to his buddy who also had a weapon handy. It likely was not the same weapon since we all have unique tastes in what makes a weapon better. Human nature is that we do not question our own skills so whoever made the better shot was likely off in search a gun identical to that one used by the winner.

Want to sponsor a match where everyone has to use the same gun? I will come. Want to have a match where only service rifles are allowed? I would shoot that. But I am only going to participate in those matches on a weekend where there is no match within traveiing distance that allows me to choose my weapon and my division. I like having that choice. I think most other shooters do as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.



×
×
  • Create New...