CHA-LEE Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Don’t get me wrong. If I showed up to a match and these things were there, I would shoot them the best I could with no bitching or whining. It is what it is and everyone has to get it done just like me. I am just looking at it from a new shooter perspective. I am sure that targets that were 30 – 50 yards away would be just as “difficult” to a new shooter. But at least those type of shooting challenges make sense to the average person, verses these contraptions. If these contraptions were a true test of shooting skill then why are none of them leveraged in Classifier stages? Such as the “El Texas Star”? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbbean Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Don’t get me wrong. If I showed up to a match and these things were there, I would shoot them the best I could with no bitching or whining. It is what it is and everyone has to get it done just like me. I am just looking at it from a new shooter perspective. I am sure that targets that were 30 – 50 yards away would be just as “difficult” to a new shooter. But at least those type of shooting challenges make sense to the average person, verses these contraptions. If these contraptions were a true test of shooting skill then why are none of them leveraged in Classifier stages? Such as the “El Texas Star”? What does "true test of shooting skill" mean to you? I'm not trying to be difficult, but I've read your comments about the need for "practical shooting" several times, and I'm not sure what makes a given stage more or less practical than another. It seems to me that very few of us are ever going to have any "practical" need to shoot 32 rounds at relatively stationary targets outside of a match or to shoot 5 rounds freehand then reload and take 5 shots weak hand at 25 yards within 5 seconds. I guess I think of our game as being golf with guns. The "true test" is who can shoot a given stage or match the best. Certainly some stages are more gamey, or test different skills, but I can't imagine there is one "true" set of shooting skills and more than any single event is the true test of track and field or of a baseball player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al503 Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 (edited) Its been said before, but put a new shooter in front of that thing and all you will get is a frustrated shooter that may or may not come back to the next match. Sure the decent shooters will be able to clean it up without too much difficulty, but really what is the point of it being in a match stage? I thought you said it was luck based? It's just like any other sport. Put a new golfer on a tough golf course or just a regular course that has easy, moderate, and difficult holes. Why not throw some 30 – 50 yard shots into a stage verses something like these contraptions? At least it makes sense to be able to shoot accurately at 30 – 50 yards. Maybe I will feel differently about these contraptions when aliens descend upon us and have 5 heads that swirl around in a circle? More 'realistic' I guess. If that's the case, doesn't it also makes sense to also be able to distinguish your target from the background (unless you live somewhere where everything you shoot at is clearly distinguishable and everything behind it doesn't move) and practice hitting what you're aiming at or get penalized for hitting something you shouldn't? Edited June 23, 2009 by al503 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al503 Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 (edited) If these contraptions were a true test of shooting skill then why are none of them leveraged in Classifier stages? Such as the “El Texas Star”? Because I'm sure that you probably won't be able to find any 2 texas stars in the same condition in terms of spin rate, varying degrees of load eccentricities, from club to club. How new/old is the star? Who manufactured it? How well lubed is it v. 'put 3 paper targets at 15 feet with 3 feet between them.' Edited June 23, 2009 by al503 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 I am all for new challenges and shooting conditions that test the skills of the shooter. But props like those are more luck based verses skills based. Its more like a carnival attraction you would pay $5 to shoot for a prize instead of a practical shooting skills test. Would I set one of those things up in practice and have fun with them? Sure. But it is beyond me how someone could think that those type of props are a valid “Practical” shooting test to be incorporated into a stage for a match. Texas Stars are “Carnival” enough. Do we really have to take it beyond that? +1 Might be a fun "side stage" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UltraTen Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 I'd love to try the Evil Star and the Polish Plate rack!! I'll try anything once, twice if I like it I could see myself going thru a couple of mags to clear it. I have to start practicing more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JorDanO Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 That Polish Plate Rack looks awesome! One of the reasons I started "practical" shooting was to be able to shoot things you never get the chance to shoot at a normal static range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike4045 Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 I would really like to try it. We have put no shoots swinging behind the star. I know if I line up my sights and call my shots I will get my hits. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DyNo! Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 "Is this because too many new shooters were sticking to the sport?" -- Gene Temple, Quote of the DayThat sounds about right. +1, just because you can doesn't mean you should. It won't hurt the good shooters, but it can really ruin a fun day for a lot of folks. I disagree but that was funny as shit... I could shoot that target but I'd still find a way to have fun if I couldn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 As a steel shooting fanatic props like those don't bother me one little bit. In fact, they give me an advantage and a chance to gobble up a lead. As a stage designer and match director, I wouldn't use either prop. Bubble gum... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris iliff Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 I like both of them. Polish plate rack looks like a blast. My club has two stars that we lined up one in front of the other and activated to spin in opposite directions. I love those types of challenges. Ups the pressure and teaches the shooter, I don't really care what level the shooter is (don't mean to be crass) and I don't buy into the "run the new guys off" theory. People that shoot will shoot. There will be enough joking and talking going on at that "bubblegum stage" that the new guy won't hold it against the sport, and if he does..... probably wouldn't have lasted long in it anyways. I like Ron's tag line too. Pressure in our environment/game is part of what helps us become the shooters we want to become. I would say that stage after stage of that would be "carnival", but one stage every now and then spices it up. Plus, it's the stage you know you are going to be talking about years later, love or hate, you'll have a story about it and that is always good. Good for the sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillGarlandJr Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 I think when we get a first look at these sort of targets we all go "Whoa" whether we are GM level shooters or newer unclassified or C or D level shooters.....think back to when the Texas Star first came on scene. We all thought it was one of the most devious things we had ever seen, but it wasn't too long before even C and D shooters were cleaning the star on occasion....maybe not as consistently as higher classified shooters, but they could shoot it....and therein lies the difference between a GM and a C or D shooter. I've had the chance to shoot both the Evil Star and the Polish Plate Rack and when I did the squad I was shooting with was comprised of shooters ranging in classification from GM to D. Everyone was able to shoot them and knock all the plates off. Some shooters took extra shots and picked up penalties and some did not, and those kinds of problems were not isolated to one classification or another.....whether you are a GM or a new shooter if you aren't lining up the sights and taking care of the trigger you are going to have problems with those kinds of targets. I guess ultimately my point is this....no matter what challenge we have been presented with, us shooters have been able to figure it out and successfully engage it. Texas Stars, Polish Plate Racks, Evil Stars...we've figured them out. I say bring on the next challenge, because whatever it is, we'll figure that out too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 I think of stages like this the same as I do the rules -- I don't care what they are as long as we all have to shoot the same stage using the same rules. That's the basis for fair and equitable competition. I can say without hesitation that if I had encountered a Polish Plate Rack or Evil Oregon Star when I first started, I would have blown myself out of the running with it. But I would have been frothing at the mouth for a chance to shoot it again! That's why we play this game. Regardless of how much static-line shooting someone has done in their past, the attraction of Practical Shooting sports in the action! New shooters can (and most likely are) intimidated by even the simplest stages after seeing experienced competitors burn 'em down. Throw in an odd prop and they really don't know the difference. They'll only think it's extreme if someone tells them that it is. Tell them it's fun and, if they're of the right mind to exist in this sport, they'll find it to be so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 Unless it is one round required per paper, if it is only available from the door...it is an illegal stage. (9 rounds from a position) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UW Mitch Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 Legal, not legal - I don't care it was challenging. But I loved it! I hope we see it every match! ~Mitch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 Unless it is one round required per paper, if it is only available from the door...it is an illegal stage. (9 rounds from a position) Hmmmm.... Good eye, Flex. Judging from the layout of the fault lines in the video, that may well be the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
open17 Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 Unless it is one round required per paper, if it is only available from the door...it is an illegal stage. (9 rounds from a position) It was legal at the time. Old rule book was "no more than 9 required from any position or view". New book is 8. I take off one plate, so 4 steel and 4 paper. The evil star is no big deal. The additional mass slows it down. I shot it with a revolver at Crazy Croc 2008, and with a Single Stack gun last month. Polish Plate rack. Shot it at Area 1 a few days ago. Single Stack, 8 shots, it moved maybe an inch. Pretty high disaster factor if you get it moving---that sucker takes off in a hurry! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 My rule of thumb is... "Know your customers" The tricky part is, your customers don't always give you honest feedback on stuff like this. What does give honest feedback is to simply look at the results. How are the hit factors in that stage? How many shooters ate a pile of penalties or took a loooong time to get through? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L-10_shooter Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 I like shooting evil bills star. Just watch your back ground, take your time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 First off this was used at the Crazy Croc matches. They are USPSA recognized but allow certain exceptions ot the rules. The only way to get 60 rounds on a stage. They were completely legal for the match shown in the video. As far as the "practical" nature of the target. I can guess that the people posting have never been in a shooting or actually had to point a gun at someone. A target that simulates a roughly head sized target moving in an erratic and changable path, up, down, fast, slow, among a field of other shoot and non shoot targets. That's a heck of a lot more practical than most other stages. An argument can easily be made that the Texas Star is one of the most practical target we shoot at in USPSA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 Flex hit the nail on the head “Know your customers”. For a club that has been established for a long while and have a relatively small amount of new shooters then props like these would spice things up and make it a fun challenge. But from what I have seen locally there are more and more new shooters attending matches every weekend. The vast majority of them have never even shot while moving around much less try to tackle a funky moving target like these. First impressions are everything. If a new shooter gets frustrated or sees the learning curve as a steep mountain the size of Mt Everest, then they will quit and go back to plinking on cans or whatever they were doing before. I want to make it clear, that I myself am not intimidated by contraptions like these. Put it on a stage and I will shoot it to the best of my ability with a smile. Shooting is fun and the harder the shots are the more rewarding the performance is. We as die hard competitors will always find the fastest most efficient way of tackling the given COF of the day. My point is that on average, new and lower class shooters will get their ass handed to them on contraptions like those and turn the experience into a frustrating one. Just look at how much time and rounds these shooters waste on simple 8 inch steel plates set out to 15 – 20 yards. Much less taking that plate and putting it on some crazy moving contraption. You can hear these shooters whining and grumbling as soon as they see the stage, way before they even start shooting. I am not saying that every stage should be over simplified to cater to the lesser ability shooters. But if a decent result isn’t fairly easy to obtain most new shooters will quit because they don’t feel like it is a rewarding activity. Think about it, when you first start shooting USPSA matches its hard enough to not feel like a one legged man in an ass kicking contest. Everything is hard and feels strange or uncomfortable. Why exasperate this frustration by adding funky contraption targets to the stages? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 I stink and would love to have a stage like that at a match. 9 out of 10 of the targets you shoot in USPSA are stationary, a little change would be nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisMcCracken Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 (edited) A target that simulates a roughly head sized target moving in an erratic and changable path, up, down, fast, slow, among a field of other shoot and non shoot targets. That's a heck of a lot more practical than most other stages. An argument can easily be made that the Texas Star is one of the most practical target we shoot at in USPSA. That made me think of an even nastier steel mover. Someone should throw a plate on the end of a double pendulum. It's movement can't be predicted, never the same twice. Youtube Video of Double Pendulum Or even worse: Edited June 24, 2009 by Erucolindon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al503 Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 My point is that on average, new and lower class shooters will get their ass handed to them on contraptions like those and turn the experience into a frustrating one. Since you will undoubtedly have some mid to upper level shooters try to go too fast (risk/reward? imagine that) like I did the second time around, those beginners are probably going to see experienced shooters crash and burn also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UW Mitch Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 ...and if it's only one crazy prop on a stage - I mean the worst you can get is a 0 for the stage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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