Why 9mm Major?

[Carlos]

Same goes for many of the 75s - which were early favorites in Open (the P9 is a 75, as are all tanfoglios). The small frame 75s won't take a 38 length case.

Also, the argument against 9Major assumes you will get your expensive 38 brass back. Around here, that assumption would be false; some may find this view objectionable, but around here we don't hold up everyone at the match with "brassin" - if it matters to you then YOU can come back later and pick up your own brass after the match on your own time. I personally won't allow it at my match since I am responsible for running 12 shooters per hour without exception (indoor USPSA match at a commercial facility - time is money). Just sayin'.

Also, if you shoot an open Glock, any 38 variant is not an option.

[oraysor]

38 supercomp is a joy to shoot for me but it seems like my brass leave’s the gun, hits the ground and runs and hides from me. Never get it back..My 9mm is a joy to shoot also and I don’t care where the brass goes. I guess the cost is the major reason I use 9mm , free brass.

[HSMITH]

The same cheap brass people buy a 9mm Open gun to use is why a lot of them have had issues with their 9mm Open guns. It is also part of why they have had magazine issues. When the point of your chambering selection is to save money you know people are using whatever brass they can get, and if they want to save the brass money what are the odds that they have a Case Pro to put the cases back in spec after they have been beat up in some horrendously loose chambers of the production pistols on the market today? Then their beat up crap brass doesn't stack right in the mags limiting capacity or killing springs in 5 loadings. In some mags it won't even run. If the beat up crap brass makes it into the chamber and fires the extractor might be grabbing on a lump of metal the loose production pistol yanked into the brass and the ejector might hit in a divot said pistol put in the case head flipping the case up into the scope mount only for it to bounce back in before the slide closes and jams the gun. But, they blame the gun/mags/sun/moon instead of looking in the mirror. 9mm major with absolute reliability is attainable, and it isn't rocket science or even that hard but it does take care to make it work. Some gunsmiths have even stepped back from building 9mm Open guns when the vast majority of the problems with them are brass problems. With 9mm and proper brass care you give up almost a half a round capacity in the big stick to Super Comp and a couple powders on the slow end that work in Super Comp but not 9mm, other than that it is a dead heat in my mind. I can't and won't pick brass, and I don't believe there is an advantage to be had in the super slow end of the powders used so I run a 9mm Open gun.

[38supPat]

There have been shooters loading 9mm Major for around 20 years now, it's not like it's new. 9X21 (on this side of the pond) came about because 9mm major was starting to show up and USPSA banned it, and at that time the PF was 175. 9X21 is essentially the same round...

[G-ManBart]

Also, the argument against 9Major assumes you will get your expensive 38 brass back. Around here, that assumption would be false; some may find this view objectionable, but around here we don't hold up everyone at the match with "brassin" -

Not objectionable, but not completely realistic either. Done properly it doesn't hold anybody up at all. Granted, an indoor range might not be quite the same, but at all the outdoor matches I've been to it was easily possible to brass and keep the rate of shooters per hour the same. R<

[werewolf45auto]

I'm trying to put together an open rig and can't find 38SC in stock. Starline shows it out til July 27th. Is there a good source for it?

Dillon has Starline 38SC on their webpage. It may take a few weeks to show up but it does show up.

Dave

[larry cazes]

Also, the argument against 9Major assumes you will get your expensive 38 brass back. Around here, that assumption would be false; some may find this view objectionable, but around here we don't hold up everyone at the match with "brassin" -

Not objectionable, but not completely realistic either. Done properly it doesn't hold anybody up at all. Granted, an indoor range might not be quite the same, but at all the outdoor matches I've been to it was easily possible to brass and keep the rate of shooters per hour the same. R<

Hmm. Never been to a local that did NOT allow brassing. Sounds a bit off if you ask me.

[smokshwn]

My question is why not?

If you're not getting brass for free and you don't mind marking your cases and picking them up I'd say the appeal of 9 Major is gone. That would be my "why not" deciding factor.

Certainly, 9 Major guns can be made to run, but it takes more work on the part of the smith and you're limited (to some degree) in what powders you can use, how you set up your mags etc. Take two otherwise identical guns built by the same smith, one in 9 Major and one in Supercomp....the SC gun is going to be slightly less likely to give you reliability problems....exactly how much is hard to quantify. If both are built right it's probably not enough to worry about, but I think you'll still have to use more care in loading for the 9....quality of brass etc.

At our local matches we can pick our brass and I usually get 95% or more back. I'll use cases three or four times (.38SC) as match brass and then it becomes practice brass that I get almost 100% back and they'll get loaded easily 10-15 times before I trash them. At the big matches I'll use new or once-fired brass and figure that, at worst, 350-500 cases cost me $60 or so. Considering entry fees, gas, hotels, etc, etc, adding another $60 is pretty insignificant. R,

The same cheap brass people buy a 9mm Open gun to use is why a lot of them have had issues with their 9mm Open guns. It is also part of why they have had magazine issues. When the point of your chambering selection is to save money you know people are using whatever brass they can get, and if they want to save the brass money what are the odds that they have a Case Pro to put the cases back in spec after they have been beat up in some horrendously loose chambers of the production pistols on the market today? Then their beat up crap brass doesn't stack right in the mags limiting capacity or killing springs in 5 loadings. In some mags it won't even run. If the beat up crap brass makes it into the chamber and fires the extractor might be grabbing on a lump of metal the loose production pistol yanked into the brass and the ejector might hit in a divot said pistol put in the case head flipping the case up into the scope mount only for it to bounce back in before the slide closes and jams the gun. But, they blame the gun/mags/sun/moon instead of looking in the mirror. 9mm major with absolute reliability is attainable, and it isn't rocket science or even that hard but it does take care to make it work. Some gunsmiths have even stepped back from building 9mm Open guns when the vast majority of the problems with them are brass problems. With 9mm and proper brass care you give up almost a half a round capacity in the big stick to Super Comp and a couple powders on the slow end that work in Super Comp but not 9mm, other than that it is a dead heat in my mind. I can't and won't pick brass, and I don't believe there is an advantage to be had in the super slow end of the powders used so I run a 9mm Open gun.

Just to add my personal experience.

I have a Bedell Shorty in 9mm. It has approx 45-50k on it right now. It runs like the proverbial sewing machine. I load range brass, cheap brass etc. with no attention whatsoever to headstamp, loadings, etc. No casepro, no sorting, no extra attention to brass quality, no mystery magic, period. Clean it a little, lube it, load it and what it fly away.

I will add that I am using all SVI mags with my gun, some Belen guts, some Grams guts, all Dawson pads.

On the idea of powder availability and selection. There are easily 6-7 powders that will easily make major and 3 bullet weights. IMHO that is plenty to find a very effective load, however it is probably not enough for those who want to endlessly load test over the chrono.

Bart, you are very luck to be able to get 95% of your brass back. At our climate you would be very lucky to get 50-55% back due to the muddy/snowy conditions a good portion of the year. Add to that a couple of clubs that have rather rocky ground and its pretty difficult to get a major portion of your brass back.

To sum it up it seems we have this thread/discussion with quite a bit of frequency and to many of those who speak of "problems" or "difficulties" of the 9mm as an option in open. I simply have not seen that to be the case.

One additional comment. There is fellow local shooter with a 38 sc built by one of the aforementioned big name smith's who refuses to build 9mm's. So far it has been far less than impressive from a reliability standpoint. I understand there could be many other factors at work, however I use this example to point out that there are way too many variables at play to simply assume that picking the right caliber will make for a reliable gun.

Take care, Craig

Edited June 24, 2009 by smokshwn

[G-ManBart]

Bart, you are very luck to be able to get 95% of your brass back. At our climate you would be very lucky to get 50-55% back due to the muddy/snowy conditions a good portion of the year. Add to that a couple of clubs that have rather rocky ground and its pretty difficult to get a major portion of your brass back.

To sum it up it seems we have this thread/discussion with quite a bit of frequency and to many of those who speak of "problems" or "difficulties" of the 9mm as an option in open. I simply have not seen that to be the case.

One additional comment. There is fellow local shooter with a 38 sc built by one of the aforementioned big name smith's who refuses to build 9mm's. So far it has been far less than impressive from a reliability standpoint. I understand there could be many other factors at work, however I use this example to point out that there are way too many variables at play to simply assume that picking the right caliber will make for a reliable gun.

Take care, Craig

Yeah, I'm sure some of it does depend on the exact range setup. One match I shoot here I lose a little more because of the range surface (probably get back 75%) so I use older brass there.....still, 25 or so cases a match doesn't hurt too bad.

I too have seen 38SC guns built by a big name run less than perfectly, but I'm pretty convinced that is almost always ammo related....just a gut feeling. I've seen more 9 Major guns have those same problems, but I also think a lot of that is ammo related as well. I guess I'm a little anal about ammo

[blkbrd]

I guess I'm a little anal about ammo

I guess when you spend time on your knees picking over and caressing brass instead of pouring out 5 gallon buckets of it you are a little more anal?

My Bedell has ran like a sewing machine since I bought it from Paul W lots and lots of rounds ago. I have no doubt that 38SC is softer and slightly faster and if your a high M or GM you need this %, I need rounds down range and my 9 works for me.

[smokshwn]

I too have seen 38SC guns built by a big name run less than perfectly, but I'm pretty convinced that is almost always ammo related....just a gut feeling. I've seen more 9 Major guns have those same problems, but I also think a lot of that is ammo related as well. I guess I'm a little anal about ammo

I tend agree with your diagnoses of gun trouble. Although I don't sort and such I do take a lot of care in loading my ammo. It seems that the problem could often be related to human error rather than builder or caliber.

It seems that when a 38sc gun has troubles there is a lot of discussion concerning mags, ammo, springs, etc yet the equivalently built 9mm gun has a problem the only answer offered is that the caliber is to blame.

[HSMITH]

It seems that when a 38sc gun has troubles there is a lot of discussion concerning mags, ammo, springs, etc yet the equivalently built 9mm gun has a problem the only answer offered is that the caliber is to blame.

This ^^^ sums up my point nicely, at least the point I was trying to make.....

[G-ManBart]

I guess I'm a little anal about ammo

I guess when you spend time on your knees picking over and caressing brass instead of pouring out 5 gallon buckets of it you are a little more anal?

My Bedell has ran like a sewing machine since I bought it from Paul W lots and lots of rounds ago. I have no doubt that 38SC is softer and slightly faster and if your a high M or GM you need this %, I need rounds down range and my 9 works for me.

Uh, not really. I get up what I can and press on....no kneeling or caressing involved.

I do, however, put a lot of effort into loading ammo as good as I can make it.

Hey, if you want to use something you don't doubt is second best.....

[Chills1994]

Of those guys who have reliability issues with their 9mmMajor open guns, how many of them actually case gauge all their ammo?

[jmaass]

Is there any danger in firing 9mm brass more then a few times out of a open gun with that kind of pressure? I am just think about case head seperations and such. It just seems to me that the super varient cases were designed for more pressure from the start. If you can re'use super brass, but need new 9mm brass every time, is there any savings?

My 9mm practice brass has been reloaded up to 5 times so far with my current load (171PF) without any signs of problems. I do inspect any cases I pick up at the range and cull out anything that looks badly worn. I also cull cases that feel tight in my sizer die (not a U-die). I will use this brass for monthly matches where I don't pick it up. I always use once fired brass for major matches.

I shot 9x21 at 175 Major for many years (115gr / ~1550 fps). My brass was usually good for 7 or 8 uses before I relegated it to my scrap pile. The indicator of problem was never split cases or work-hardening, it was when the primers became too easy to insert into the primer pockets.

I started with 2000 new 9x21 cases, and used those exclusively, keeping track of how many loadings (so I had a large Tupperware bin of cases with "N" firings, and another of cases with "N+1" firings. At the point when I experienced more than two of these per hundred loaded rounds, I declared that batch of brass "retired", and started with another 2000 cases.

There were not that many local 9x21 shooters (one other I can recall shooting at ranges where I shot), and I marked my brass to try to minimize the chance that I got anyone else's brass at a match or range.

[larry cazes]

Of those guys who have reliability issues with their 9mmMajor open guns, how many of them actually case gauge all their ammo?

Good question. I would suspect very few but that is the point here. Most of us that shoot variants of 38super do so because we are willing to spend a little money and do what it takes to load ammo that CAN run 100% so we start with new brass of all the same headstamp and manage it until it cannot be reloaded. Most smiths seem to know how to build guns but we have to do our part to feed them right. The proponents of free range brass in 9mm which almost always means mixed headstamp as well are not of that mindset. If you take the care that I do to load my super rounds using new 9mm brass of the same headstamp then the cost savings are insignificant. Now if cost is not the driving factor there are some small but real advantages to some of the super variants over 9mm. These are the trade offs of absolute cheapest route versus highest reliability with the least amount of work involved to get there.

Edited June 24, 2009 by larry cazes

[1911jerry]

..... Hmm. Never been to a local that did NOT allow brassing. Sounds a bit off if you ask me.

Larry,

When I shot at Richmond and Chabot, I thought everyone did brassing at the matches. When I moved here to Texas, no one brasses. I think there are fewer reloaders here also.

Jerry

[shred]

..... Hmm. Never been to a local that did NOT allow brassing. Sounds a bit off if you ask me.

Larry,

When I shot at Richmond and Chabot, I thought everyone did brassing at the matches. When I moved here to Texas, no one brasses. I think there are fewer reloaders here also.

Jerry

Lately the vibe has been 'you can brass your own stuff if you want', and some people help each other, but the general somebodys-always-brassing has gone by the wayside. That's why we color brass to make it easier to recover...

[zhunter]

2 weeks ago I had a guy brassing while I was "UP" and the stage was being reset. He was IN THE WAY!!! I was rather pissed about it.

IF you want to collect your brass, do it on your own time

[StraightUp_OG]

No matter what caliber I am shooting if I can pick it up I do. So what if 9mm is $.02 and SC is $.14 I pick it up. No matter the cost or effort, the more I can reload each case the cheaper it gets in the long run. At our local everyone gets something to do while waiting to shoot one of those things is brassing. So not only do I spend time picking up my brass but I pick up other shooters brass as well. Why? Because it is the right thing to do.

[MoNsTeR]

(I'm sure this kind of thing has been posted before, but I'm bored)

Let us assume:

- a local match takes about 125 rounds to complete

- you get 50% of your brass back at a match

- you get 95% of your brass back after practice

- once-fired 9mm brass is $39/k (brassmansales.com)

- new super brass is $125/k (Starline Super +P or Supercomp)

- brass never wears out, it just gets lost

So then take me for example. I basically shoot 3 matches a month, and (optimistically) 2 practice sessions of about 200 rounds each. In Colorado there are (again optimistically) 8 decent shooting months in a year, so that works out to 6200 rounds expended, and 1500+3040=4540 pieces of brass recovered (about 73%).

If I'm shooting supers and picking them up, my $775 initial investment has depreciated by $208.

If I'm shooting 9s and leaving them, my $242 initial investment has evaporated. (worse)

If I'm shooting 9s and picking them up, my $242 initial investment has depreciated by $65. (better)

Thinking about it another way, at a recovery rate of 73%, 6200 pieces of super brass can load around 22000 rounds for $775 (summation cut off after 10 uses). At a recovery rate of 0, 22000 rounds of 9 will cost $858.

So yes, if you have to pay for brass, and don't want to pick up your 9s, super comes out ahead, given the above assumptions and further assuming that cost is the only material difference. Of course if you pick up your 9s even once, you win big. But if those assumptions don't hold you get different results. If you recover 0 brass at matches, super always loses. If you get free 9 brass, super always loses. If your practice-to-match ratio is much higher, the gap narrows and the two become nearly equal.

2 weeks ago I had a guy brassing while I was "UP" and the stage was being reset. He was IN THE WAY!!! I was rather pissed about it.

IF you want to collect your brass, do it on your own time

Around here that happens basically every single stage at every single match, only it's folks picking up brass for the guy who just shot rather than for themselves. Having your walkthrough interrupted for a quarter second is not the end of the world. Chill out.

Edited June 24, 2009 by MoNsTeR

[Fireant]

Not having to hunt for my brass in last weekends 107 degree heat( heat index) with no shade was worth every trade off I know of. I can brass at one local match a month and have enough once fired 9mm brass for 2-3 months of shooting cost to me $0

[Alan Meek]

Hi I am a Major 9 shooter

Why do I shoot 9 Major in Open.

Back in 2004 when I built my latest open guns, to replace my 12yo work horse I moved to 9 Major.

My Previous Open gun was a .40 S&W plus I had pretty much depleted all .38 Super as I had shot .40 for about 12 years.

I looked at the alternatives at the time,

38 Super, 4 Manufacturers of brass, FC, Win, R-P and Starline. All with a semi-rimmed case. No once fired readily available

38 SuperComp, only one supplier of brass, Starline. No once fired readily available.

9mm, Everybody makes 9mm brasss, plenty of once fired available, but possibility a lot of crap brass being sold as once fired.

I knew I wanted to got with a rimless case so that pretty much moved my choice to 9mm 38SC. Looking at all of the potential availabilty 9mm made the most sense to me.

Currently the Starline pricing is about $25/1000 less for 9mm to 38SC. Not a huge difference, but I can get once fired 9mm from reputable sources in the price range of $35-60$/1000. I do not worry about picking up range brass to try and save money. I won't even pick up .45 range brass. I have no way of knowing what has been done to the case. So if I reload 9 major 5 times it is costing me $7-12/1000 and 38 Supercomp if I reloaded it 10 times would cost me $12/1000. Zero sum gain/loss on brass price. Just that the 9mm availability makes more sense to me. I can get it from a few places if I need it.

[geezer-lock]

Just wondering this morning why did the 9major come into being? .

I think at the time it was a mag capacity issue more than anything else. Nowadays it is a relatively cheap platform for Open with Glock.

David C

[kimel]

As someone who recently made the decision my final criteria came down to brass availability. Like someone else said, everyone makes 9mm brass; only one company (that I could find anyway) makes 38 SC.

At the time I made the final decision (early this year) everything reloading related was/is hard to locate so I wanted to eliminate as much of that problem as possible.

Plus, I am already set up and reloading 9mm for Production. Change powder and adjust seating/crimp dies and I'm rocking and rolling. Don't need another set of dies, conversion, etc. and don't have to convert the press.

Then it was just find the right smith who has a reputation for building 9 major guns that run and patiently wait for the magic to happen and the big brown truck to arrive.