Movement and reloads

[G-ManBart]

This was spurred by an unrelated thread and several similar threads in the past. The basic question is this: Does adding a reload to movement cost you time compared to moving without a reload?

Lots of scenarios are possible, but let's just stick with two for now. Scenario A is shooting from port/box/area 1, you have to move to port/box/area 2 that's approximately 8-9ft away. How much time, if any, is it going to add if you reload between 1 and 2? Scenario B is shooting from port/box/area 1 and you have to move approximately 30ft to port/box/area 2. Again, how much time, if any, will reloading cost you?

One school of thought is that it doesn't cost you any time to move while reloading....you're doing two things at once essentially. The other school of thought is that a reload always costs you time, even when done while moving...you can't move and reload as fast as you can just move.

I've timed myself on a simple drill like the above, but it was a while ago and I didn't write anything down. I know what the general outcome was, but I'll start fresh. So, I'm going to set up something like the above in the near future, time myself (and hopefully some friends) running it mulitple times and see what the average difference is, if any. I'll try to add video just for fun.

Anybody else out there timed themselves on something like this before? I know at least one or two folks have given specific figures in the past, but I'd rather they provide their own info rather than me quoting them. So, let's hear it, see it and talk real numbers.

Since I'm the one starting the discussion I'll give my prediction and ya'll can point fingers and laugh if I'm wrong. I say nobody can move and reload as fast as they can just move. The better the shooter, the less the reload is going to add, but it's still going to slow them down. So, for a GM who's smoking fast on reloads might only lose .2 but it's still time lost. For a C shooter it might be a second added or something along those lines. That fraction of a second where you're looking at the gun, grabbing the mag etc...you may be moving, but you're not moving as fast as you would be if you just stepped off normally and moved. I guess we'll see either way.

So, if you've got any data on this....throw it out there! R,

[Al Capizzo]

I did this test just last week. Moving from box to box with and without a reload. Unfortunately, I didn't record the time either. But I know that with 25 to 30 feet between boxes it was faster (by .3/.4?) to just move. I also noticed that for me - a right handed shooter - the difference was slightly more pronounced when exiting to my left than to my right.

[kevin c]

I don't have hard data (mebbe I should), but can tell you this:

My reload with movement (and I do a lot of them in Production), from release with the weak hand to insertion, is slower than a static reload because I'll miss with the mag at standard speed if my various body parts are pumping and impacting the ground with each step.

My movement with a reload, from point A to point B, is slower than moving without it, probably for reasons similar to the above.

But my overall time to reload with movement from A to B is faster than a static reload followed by movement.

[mda]

No times just observations.

Moving with a reload will always be slower as stated above.

GM shooters will usually have the reload finished within the first step. The less reload skill a shooter has results in more steps before finishing the reload, thus slower for reasons already stated.

MDA

[bkeeler]

This is interesting thanks for posting this G-ManBart.

I myself have not timed it but I know that when there is a reload it adds time for me anyway.

We shot a classifier this weekend 99-10 Times Two http://www.uspsa.org/classifiers/cm99-10.gif. Looking at the times of those that had to reload between boxes added at least 1.27secs total time on the stage compared to my time(but they were reloading single stacks). I myself did not have to reload. That is the only data that I have.

Also I think people that do add data should at least state what there highest classification is.

A class L-10

B class Limited.

BK

Edited April 29, 2009 by bkeeler

[Jman]

I'm slower moving and reloading. Since shooting Production primarily I've had to really focus on this. Always have subscribed to move and reload but, I was shooting Limited too. There's always a "sweet spot" on a COF were we can pull off a single reload that wouldn't effect my time badly while moving. Production (for me) is a different story. If you fumble a reload (easier in Prod.) you slow down your movement to correct things. Other neat things can and usually do happen once your rhythm is disrupted. For example over running a port or shooting position. Even slightly. Tick...tick...tick. I don't have raw data to confirm but my best guesstimate is a 10% time savings at minimum. Shoot, nail the reload, aggressive move to the next position, gun at eye level.

FWIW.

Jim

[simonsay]

This is interesting thanks for posting this G-ManBart.

Also I think people that do add data should at least state what there highest classification is.

BK

Yes interesting. Rather than, or in addition to classifications, I'd like to know what the shooter's average static reload time is, then the time difference between positions reloading or not. I think your static reload time would tell me more than just the classification alone.

[Seth]

High C shooter. 10 yards box to box with a reload vs without a reload is about 1/2 second slower. No matter how hard I tried, I couldn't successfully reload and haul the mail as fast as without the reload.

[uscbigdawg]

PSV4 is all I need to see that it's possible to have it be no time lost if the reload is executed properly.

Rich

[Ron Ankeny]

Let me preface this by saying I am not an explosive shooter in the movement department. Shooting Open (that's all I shoot now) there is no perceptible difference in time between a big stick and a reload if I have 3-4 steps between positions. I am slightly slower if there is only a step or two but it isn't really the physical act of reloading that gobbles up the extra couple of tenths. What happens is the reload redirects my attention away from other aspects of the shooting, like setting up and shooting as soon as possible as I arrive at the next position. Even when there isn't any difference in "time" the hits might suffer slightly. I really noticed this when I was shooting L10 with a single stack.

Edited April 29, 2009 by Ron Ankeny

[Flexmoney]

Reloads suck. Time...energy...attention.

More distraction.

More chance for flubbing up (<< technical term).

Another thing to do...

Be cool. Shoot Open.

[Ron Ankeny]

Reloads suck.

I wish I would have said that...would have saved a lot of typing.

[G-ManBart]

PSV4 is all I need to see that it's possible to have it be no time lost if the reload is executed properly.

Rich

"ETA: If video of Matt on PSV4 isn't enough, you can take the comment from our host when discussing speed between him and Robbie at the STC. If I recall who was doing what, Brian chose to run full out, where Robbie chose to go at a medium/fast stroll. The time was about the same. Now...if that's possible (meaning covering the same distance and execution of action) then, would it not be just as feasible to say that if you are someone that runs full speed and reloads, you could be just as fast as someone that chooses to go at a medium/fast stroll and doesn't? Maybe some folks (myself included) run faster than their normal movement speed when the stage plan calls for a movement and a reload. Is that possible? If so, then the facts are not facts at all and again are "

subjective."

This quote make so little sense from a logical standpoint as to be silly....seriously. You're going to try and compare how someone looked while they were running? Did anyone time them to see who actually ran faster? Who has the longer legs, who covers more ground per step? I have a pretty short stride and my run looks like some folks fast stroll. Regardless, we're not comparing two different people...we're comparing the same person. One time reloading, going as fast as possible, the other time not reloading going as fast as possible. Whichever takes less time is the fastest method....not what someone chooses to do, what someone can do...big difference.

The second part makes even less sense. If someone can run faster when a reload is necessary then they can run faster when a reload isn't necessary. Moving your fastest while not making a reload is going to be faster than running your fastest while making a reload....that's the whole point. What is THE fastest method, not what you do normally. If you choose to move slower than your fastest when you don't have to reload...that's cool, you'll just get passed by folks that aren't really "faster" than you.

Oh, before I forget, yeah, if Matt Burkett can do it anybody can do it....LMAO, you should sell that and hire the Sham Wow guy to pitch it......that's pretty funny. Yeah, and every C or D shooter should be able to reload as well as Matt huh? Still, it's not about what someone should be able to do, it's about what they are able to do....and sure as heck a reload is going to slow down a C or D shooter more than a GM like Matt.

This would make a fun side bet....set up to boxes, four targets, you reload, I won't and we'll see who finishes faster and wager maybe a grand on it

Edited April 29, 2009 by G-ManBart

[Matt Cheely]

Make the distance more than about 3 yards, and the time will be the same.

[G-ManBart]

Make the distance more than about 3 yards, and the time will be the same.

So if we took an Olympic sprinter and told them they had to do something even simpler than a reload....say touch their hand to their belly button and tap their chin, during their run it wouldn't slow them down, even a tiny bit, because it's more than 3 yards?

I'd find that hard to believe.

[Matt Cheely]

Make the distance more than about 3 yards, and the time will be the same.

So if we took an Olympic sprinter and told them they had to do something even simpler than a reload....say touch their hand to their belly button and tap their chin, during their run it wouldn't slow them down, even a tiny bit, because it's more than 3 yards?

I'd find that hard to believe.

I'm not doing an olympic sprint between shooting positions. I've done the box to box drills to prove it to myself. Theoretically, there might be a time loss, but in application there is no perceptible difference.

ETA: I suppose I need to say that this applies "to me", and not everyone else...

Edited April 29, 2009 by Matt Cheely

[shooterbenedetto]

I agree...I asked that question when I trained with Grauffel. I agree with Matt.

Edited April 29, 2009 by shooterbenedetto

[Fergus]

My old stats professor would probably reach for a good stiff drink if he read this thread.

There are a heck of a lot of other factors involved hence a meaningful comparison between shooters may near be impossible.

Factors like skill level [competence level as well as reload times] have been mentioned but also acceleration, terrain, is the shooter having to set up in another box and fire a shot or are they just racing across a line. Peoples rate of deceleration are about as variable as acceleration and hence the reload time could easily be gobbled up in that.

Lastly if a shooter was to do the same exact drill say 7 times a person would have to look not only at their average but also at the variability in the individual runs. My guess, and its just a guess, that the variability would be such that you probably couldn't say with more than about 75% confidence if there was a meaningful difference. So you could argue both sides of the coin on this forever and not get anywhere in comparing shooters.

Just thoughts!

[Flexmoney]

This is probably my favorite reload video.

TJ in Florida:

[ihatepickles]

This is probably my favorite reload video.

TJ in Florida:

I believe it was the Double Alpha produced video of the 2003 (maybe 2004?) Nats where Jarrett's mag basepad just pukes and blows his run... felt bad for the guy, his reloads are so quick it sucks to have equipment let you down. I think he even gives a mini-interview and says something like "I knew that mag was suspect and stuck it in my bag anyway... mea culpa...", classy guy.

[JThompson]

This is probably my favorite reload video.

TJ in Florida:

Todd has some sick skillz....

[XRe]

There are two things I haven't seen mentioned here (and I agree with most of it - except that I think you can establish a meaningful measurement, whether or not your statistics prof will agree ). One is that a standing reload is a different animal from a "launch and load". If you practice the two separately, frequently, you'll find the load falling apart while you're launching. Make a point of practicing a reload upon launching from a position.

Secondly... consider that, sometimes, getting the reload over with "as soon as possible" may result in a detriment vs. delaying the reload a bit - say... if you have to negotiate an obstacle, or, say... move backwards from the strong hand side to the weak hand side (from right to left, for me). There are certain techniques that are noticeably faster (on the timer) for me in these situations...

[Blueridge]

Being a revolver shooter, I have pondered the movement and reload issue quite a bit. I take it as a given that I will have to reload 3-5 times a stage on average. That casued me to consider moving then reload, reload then move, or reload while moving. Generally I reload prior to moving because it has so far been faster and feels smoother to me. The idea of reloading while moving makes sense to me in theory since doing two things at the same time should save time, but the reality of multi-tasking is much different than the theory in my experience.

Then again most people that see me shoot would say that I am not concerned with speed.

Edited April 29, 2009 by Blueridge

[JThompson]

Being a revolver shooter, I have pondered the movement a reload issue quite a bit. I take it as a given that I will have to reload 3-5 times a stage on average. That casued me to consider moving then reload, reload then move, or reload while moving. Generally I reload prior to moving because it has so far been faster and feels smoother to me. The idea of reloading while moving makes sense to me in theory since doing two things at the same time should save time, but the reality of multi-tasking is much different than the theory in my experience.

Then again most people that see me shoot would say that I am not concerned with speed.

Not to mention 180 and muzzle issues that are a lot harder to deal with in a revo....

[RegRob]

My old stats professor would probably reach for a good stiff drink if he read this thread.

Lastly if a shooter was to do the same exact drill say 7 times a person would have to look not only at their average but also at the variability in the individual runs. My guess, and its just a guess, that the variability would be such that you probably couldn't say with more than about 75% confidence if there was a meaningful difference.

Just thoughts!

I see what you mean. We did this during training once, with myself as the test subject. We could see difference between the runs, but nothing that could be used as statistical proof. Which is where you employ what in statistics is called "a-priori perception" which is common sence :-) We decided that the time loss from the mag change certainly was less than 2/10th of a second, and probably close to 1/10th. The difference comes from not being able to move the arms/torso as desired when you accellerate out of the box.

Slight drift: Footwork makes a big difference. Move one foot away from the direction of box B, to gain angle and momentum when you accellerate.

Edited April 29, 2009 by RegRob